Who has played their last game as a Brewer?

[fondybrewfan]

I would probably rather trade Braun for nothing than trade Santana for some prospects. If the goal is to compete next year you don't trade Santana before Braun unless Santana got you back major league talent.

[Lathund]

Very on the fence about Keon Broxton. All this talk about OF depth, but who do you put as the 4th OFer? Do you really make Phillips or Brinson the 4th OFer where ABs will be a bit sporadic? I think there is a chance Keon Broxton stays as a 4th OFer. I think Jonathan Villar stays another year.

 

You donn't have to have a designated 4th OF. Four OFs splitting time somewhat evenly will still get 120 starts each. There will inevitably be some injuries, Platoon situations. Braun isn't going to play every game. There are some DH games. There will be double switches, there will be defensive substitutions for Santana. Pinch hit appearances. Lack of playing time won't be an issue with a Braun/Brinson/Phillips/Santana outfield IMO.

[Baldkin]

Thankfully, never have to see this again:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG1WwcRlE0Q

[gregmag]

I can't think of a rebuilding team that has traded a 24 year-old power hitter coming off a breakout year with four years of team control left. Aside from the usual "deal anyone if you get blown away" caveat, trading Santana seems very unwise to me. He's a cornerstone-type player. If his defense is intolerable, then think about moving him to 1b and moving Thames and/or Aguilar.

 

TPlush may be right about Broxton. (I just love Keon, so he's hard for me to be objective about.) Braun's going to be here, and he's going to be hurt a lot. Santana, Phillips, and Brinson should all be in the of rotation. Braun and Brinson have had a lot of injuries. Keep Keon around as the nominal fifth of, and he'll probably end up with the PT of a third/fourth of.

 

One of my few criticisms of Counsell is that he fell in love too much with Perez. I love having Perez around for his versatility, but he's a subpar hitter. Broxton wasn't much better, but I'd bet on his outhitting Hernan going forward. (Also, Perez shouldn't bat leadoff in a beer league. If there's such a thing as a prototypical #7 hitter, he's it.)

 

Garza bye woo-hoo!

 

Who knows with the bullpen guys. Torres certainly seems to have worn out his welcome. They may still see something in Drake, and that could be right. Nelson's injury may change some things. I would assume it's more urgent now to try Hader as a starter, which means Wang could have added appeal as a bullpen lefty. Wilkerson seems very likely to get a long look as a starter. He seems likely to be where Cravy was on the depth chart.

 

I think trading or cutting bait on Villar would be a bad idea, but I understand why a lot of people want him gone. He needs a reset, at least; if it works, he has a ton of value.

 

The catchers are interesting. Why was Susac so terrible this year? If the likeliest answer is something more nuanced than "he's just terrible," I'd keep him over Bandy. I'd like to think Susac will outplay Vogt, but maybe that train has left the station.

[jerichoholicninja]

I can't think of a rebuilding team that has traded a 24 year-old power hitter coming off a breakout year with four years of team control left. Aside from the usual "deal anyone if you get blown away" caveat, trading Santana seems very unwise to me. He's a cornerstone-type player. If his defense is intolerable, then think about moving him to 1b and moving Thames and/or Aguilar.

 

We just did that a few years ago with Davis. Same amount of control and he was a little older but it's almost the same situation as they each have deficiencies that would hurt other teams less than it hurts us. As for 1B, it was brought up in another thread that the Astros tried him there and it didn't work.

 

Speaking of Davis, in his 4 full big league seasons he's had batting averages of .244, .247, .247, and .247 in order.

[MrTPlush]

Very on the fence about Keon Broxton. All this talk about OF depth, but who do you put as the 4th OFer? Do you really make Phillips or Brinson the 4th OFer where ABs will be a bit sporadic? I think there is a chance Keon Broxton stays as a 4th OFer. I think Jonathan Villar stays another year.

 

You donn't have to have a designated 4th OF.

 

No, you don't. However when all those guys are healthy someone is going to get the short end of the stick. Making Brinson/Phillips ride the bench for lengthy times or just not getting consistent playing time is questionable at best. Unless you instill a rotation between them where they all play consistently I wouldn't really want an inexperienced guy at #4.

[torts]

Thankfully, never have to see this again:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG1WwcRlE0Q

 

your quiet snickering add's tons to the video

[bork]

Susac is the only catcher with an option left, so he has that going for him.

[3and2Fastball]

Honestly can anyone remember the last tim Braun was healthy for more than three days in a row?

 

Probably had a lot to do with why he was on Roids in the 1st Place. Incredible genetics for playing Baseball. Not so great genetics for durability.

 

Very ironic but after all those discussions as to who to sign long term, Fielder or Braun, the correct answer was "neither".

[Lathund]

Very on the fence about Keon Broxton. All this talk about OF depth, but who do you put as the 4th OFer? Do you really make Phillips or Brinson the 4th OFer where ABs will be a bit sporadic? I think there is a chance Keon Broxton stays as a 4th OFer. I think Jonathan Villar stays another year.

 

You donn't have to have a designated 4th OF.

 

No, you don't. However when all those guys are healthy someone is going to get the short end of the stick. Making Brinson/Phillips ride the bench for lengthy times or just not getting consistent playing time is questionable at best. Unless you instill a rotation between them where they all play consistently I wouldn't really want an inexperienced guy at #4.

 

Hence my whole suggestion of not having that 4th OF, not letting anyone ride the bench for lengthy stretches, and instead having that kind of rotation. Phillips is our only LH outfield bat, and can play excellent defense in all three spots, and to me Brinson has too high a ceiling to trade at this point. Neither has anything left to prove in AAA. It's easy to accomodate four "starters" in the outfield without hurting the development of any of them.

[KeithStone53151]

Very on the fence about Keon Broxton. All this talk about OF depth, but who do you put as the 4th OFer? Do you really make Phillips or Brinson the 4th OFer where ABs will be a bit sporadic? I think there is a chance Keon Broxton stays as a 4th OFer. I think Jonathan Villar stays another year.

 

You donn't have to have a designated 4th OF.

 

No, you don't. However when all those guys are healthy someone is going to get the short end of the stick. Making Brinson/Phillips ride the bench for lengthy times or just not getting consistent playing time is questionable at best. Unless you instill a rotation between them where they all play consistently I wouldn't really want an inexperienced guy at #4.

 

It's generally more common for the 4th outfielder to be filled by someone with significant mlb experience. That said, I think with our outfield it would be fairly easy to find atbats for guys as needed if we rolled with Braun/Santana/Brinson/Phillips. Braun will inevitably miss time, PH appearances, you can easily shave a start or two a week from Santana/Braun and not miss much(and probably keep him more fresh).

 

That said, I could also see them starting with Brinson in AAA to get him regular atbats and bring him up after a month or so. The problem would be the same, but at least he'd have a base of consistent atbats to go from before moving into a 3-4 start per week situation.

 

All this is of course assuming Broxton won't be around, which is absolutely not a fair assumption. It's amazing how many different directions Stearns can go with just our outfield decisions this offseason.

[gregmag]

I can't think of a rebuilding team that has traded a 24 year-old power hitter coming off a breakout year with four years of team control left. Aside from the usual "deal anyone if you get blown away" caveat, trading Santana seems very unwise to me. He's a cornerstone-type player. If his defense is intolerable, then think about moving him to 1b and moving Thames and/or Aguilar.

 

We just did that a few years ago with Davis. Same amount of control and he was a little older but it's almost the same situation as they each have deficiencies that would hurt other teams less than it hurts us. As for 1B, it was brought up in another thread that the Astros tried him there and it didn't work.

 

Speaking of Davis, in his 4 full big league seasons he's had batting averages of .244, .247, .247, and .247 in order.

That's why I included his age in the point. 24 vs. 27 is a massive difference developmentally. On average, at least; maybe with these two players it turns out not to be. But many more 24 year-olds improve substantially than 27 year-olds.

 

The 1b thing . . . Maybe you're right and the Astros proved conclusively that he can't play 1b and there's no reason for our staff to revisit the question. If so, though, this seems harder for us than the norm. Other teams seem to take bad or aging ofs, stick them at 1b, and move on with life. We couldn't do that with Khris, people sometimes arge it wouldn't work with Braun, and now Santana. I thought any fool with a bat could play 1b. Why doesn't it work for us?

[JosephC]

I guess I don't see what the problem is with having Braun, Broxton, Santana, Phillips and Brinson as the team's five outfielders next season. With injuries there will likely be enough at-bats to go around. If they all stay healthy there probably will be at least one that won't hit and will get more time on the bench than the rest. I'd keep 'em all and be pretty happy with the group. Only thing that would make me change my mind is if a team gave up a pretty decent package for Braun (won't happen), and even then my motivation for moving him would be more for unloading his contract rather than just trying to create another outfield opening. With Cordell gone it appears that the next outfield prospects are still 1.5 to 2 seasons away from the majors so it's not like this group of five are blocking any top prospects.

[Thurston Fluff]

Honestly can anyone remember the last tim Braun was healthy for more than three days in a row?

 

Probably had a lot to do with why he was on Roids in the 1st Place. Incredible genetics for playing Baseball. Not so great genetics for durability.

 

Very ironic but after all those discussions as to who to sign long term, Fielder or Braun, the correct answer was "neither".

 

I hope management learns their lesson and forgoes those types of signings in the future. I have no problem paying a player a lot of money as long as the length of the contract is three or less years.

[rcc]

Goodbye to Garza, Torres, Walker, Drake, Barnes, Peralta.

 

Walker wants to see what he can do in free agency. The rest are not good enough to be a Brewer anymore.

[BuckyBrewer61]

Honestly can anyone remember the last tim Braun was healthy for more than three days in a row?

 

Probably had a lot to do with why he was on Roids in the 1st Place. Incredible genetics for playing Baseball. Not so great genetics for durability.

 

Not to derail the thread, but obligatory need to point out the greatest fallacy of the steroid debate - systemic steroids absolutely do not help you heal from injury. In fact, they have the exact opposite effect. Yes, a local injection can decrease inflammation which is why it's useful to control pain in a specific location (like a joint or tendon), but systemic steroids suppress your entire immune system, which is the singular critical element in healing.

 

One thing steroids have been scientifically shown to do is make you stronger, faster, more powerful. This, and this alone, is the reason athletes take them. But people seem to think the healing thing is a legit reason, which is why athletes that get caught use it as an excuse. It sounds better than "oh I did it to gain a competitive advantage over other players," which is the truth.

 

Honestly I don't care much when athletes use them, but for some reason I get annoyed that they get away with this excuse. If anything Braun's injury issues are far more likely because of long-term steroid use rather than no longer using.

[OnaBadger58]

Honestly can anyone remember the last tim Braun was healthy for more than three days in a row?

 

Probably had a lot to do with why he was on Roids in the 1st Place. Incredible genetics for playing Baseball. Not so great genetics for durability.

 

Very ironic but after all those discussions as to who to sign long term, Fielder or Braun, the correct answer was "neither".

 

I hope management learns their lesson and forgoes those types of signings in the future. I have no problem paying a player a lot of money as long as the length of the contract is three or less years.

Small market teams need to take that risk to keep superstar players. It's a necessary risk to take if you don't want to be the Oakland A's. The thing with long contracts are that they start by buying out some of their arbitration years and adding multiple years afterwards. There's no point in signing players, but not extending them past arbitration. If you try to sign them after their arbitration years, they are going to test free agency and sign big contracts with another team. No top-teir player will be siging 3 year contracts in their prime.

[JohnBriggs12]

The only way Villar is back is if they don't sign either Sogard or Walker. I think he's gone and I'm certain one if not both of those guys return. Walker's value in FA isn't what he thinks it is.

 

So is Broxton, and the obvious arms, Torres, Drake, Garza,

 

There will be 1-3 or so other guys who don't return. Bring back Vogt or go after a guy like Avila in FA? The latter can throw out an occasional runner.

[Lathund]

Honestly can anyone remember the last tim Braun was healthy for more than three days in a row?

 

Probably had a lot to do with why he was on Roids in the 1st Place. Incredible genetics for playing Baseball. Not so great genetics for durability.

 

Not to derail the thread, but obligatory need to point out the greatest fallacy of the steroid debate - systemic steroids absolutely do not help you heal from injury. In fact, they have the exact opposite effect. Yes, a local injection can decrease inflammation which is why it's useful to control pain in a specific location (like a joint or tendon), but systemic steroids suppress your entire immune system, which is the singular critical element in healing.

 

One thing steroids have been scientifically shown to do is make you stronger, faster, more powerful. This, and this alone, is the reason athletes take them. But people seem to think the healing thing is a legit reason, which is why athletes that get caught use it as an excuse. It sounds better than "oh I did it to gain a competitive advantage over other players," which is the truth.

 

Honestly I don't care much when athletes use them, but for some reason I get annoyed that they get away with this excuse. If anything Braun's injury issues are far more likely because of long-term steroid use rather than no longer using.

 

The type of steroids you inject to reduce inflammation are Corticosteroids (Such as Cortisone), which are a type of Catabolic Steroid. And those are indeed not any good for systemic use. Look up what someone with Cushing's Syndrome looks like to see what body type you end up with. It's not what an athlete wants.

 

Whereas the type of steroids used as PEDs are Anabolic Steroids. HGH isn't a steroid, but it's an Anabolic hormone nonetheless. They do have an effect on recovery, but not so much in terms of healing an injury itself. Rather they help regain strength and build muscle mass faster. In any sport where there's little time for recovery that can certainly enhance performance towards the end of a long season. In baseball it's still the strength aspect that matters most I would think.

 

Regardless of whether it's strength or recovery it's used for, it's still performance enhancing. I agree that the healing aspect shouldn't be a legit reason, and it isn't. Anyone caught with high levels of synthetic anabolic steroids took them knowingly and in order to gain an unfair advantage, and should be suspended accordingly.

[djoctagone]

quintin berry

 

matt garza

 

taylor jungmann (it doesn't make sense, especially with jimmy nelson expected to miss a chunk of time, but the brewers seemingly didn't want jungmann's services during his final option year, and i doubt they'll want him in 2018)

 

domingo santana (trade to an american league team while his value is at an all-time high . . . it'll be tough to see him go, but it will open the door to give better defenders lewis brinson, keon broxton and brett phillips more playing time while bolstering the farm)

 

andrew susac (assuming jacob nottingham is added to the 40-man for catching depth)

 

carlos torres

 

stephen vogt (ditto with jacob nottingham)

 

neil walker

[Thurston Fluff]

Small market teams need to take that risk to keep superstar players. It's a necessary risk to take if you don't want to be the Oakland A's. The thing with long contracts are that they start by buying out some of their arbitration years and adding multiple years afterwards. There's no point in signing players, but not extending them past arbitration. If you try to sign them after their arbitration years, they are going to test free agency and sign big contracts with another team. No top-teir player will be siging 3 year contracts in their prime.

 

Neither Braun's nor Fielder's contracts would have bought out any arby years. As far as small market teams needing to do them or risk becoming the A's which small market team did one of those crazy long contracts and did better because of it? I don't think teams need super stars in their prime to win. They need a lot of good players more than they need a couple super stars eating up half the payroll.

[djoctagone]

Susac is the only catcher with an option left, so he has that going for him.

that all changes if they add jacob nottingham to the 40-man roster before the rule 5 draft deadline.

[buckybrewer232]

Goodbye to Garza, Torres, Walker, Drake, Barnes, Peralta.

 

Walker wants to see what he can do in free agency. The rest are not good enough to be a Brewer anymore.

 

Barnes isn't going anywhere. The rest are probably gone.

[danzig6767]

Very on the fence about Keon Broxton. All this talk about OF depth, but who do you put as the 4th OFer? Do you really make Phillips or Brinson the 4th OFer where ABs will be a bit sporadic? I think there is a chance Keon Broxton stays as a 4th OFer. I think Jonathan Villar stays another year.

You donn't have to have a designated 4th OF.

No, you don't. However when all those guys are healthy someone is going to get the short end of the stick. Making Brinson/Phillips ride the bench for lengthy times or just not getting consistent playing time is questionable at best. Unless you instill a rotation between them where they all play consistently I wouldn't really want an inexperienced guy at #4.

 

Brinson had injuries every year in the minors

 

Braun will likely only start 100-110 games at most next year

 

Santana will get days off

 

Even if you exclude Santana days off, the team could split 324 starts between Braun, Phillips, and Brinson. That doesn't include PH chances and games with a DH.

 

There would be plenty of playing time available for Phillips and Brinson where each avoids extended stretches not playing.

 

Simply trade Broxton and roll with Santana/Braun/Phillips/Brinson.

[bork]

Susac is the only catcher with an option left, so he has that going for him.

that all changes if they add jacob nottingham to the 40-man roster before the rule 5 draft deadline.

 

Nottingham didn't hit any better than Susac and was a level lower. And I believe he still needs work on his defense. I don't see him as the third catching option next year.