Cardinal Pessimism Thread

[jerichoholicninja]

Cardinals haven't lost 90 games in a season since 1990. Before that, 1978. It's really an amazing stretch of almost 40 years. The next awful season they have, whenever that may be, will be cause for a lot of gloating.

 

The Cardinals are an example that you don't have to be "boom or bust." That gives me hope that the Brewers, under the correct management, can become a franchise that can expect to win regularly. The Cardinals never firesale their MLB team, but they always have a strong farm. They never gut the farm, but they always have a good MLB team. There is a mix somewhere between the "window strategy" and the "continual rebuild strategy" that can lead to prolonged success for a smaller market team. Hopefully the Stearns/Attanasio group can find that successful strategy, and if they do I hope Attanasio signs Stearns to a lifetime contract.

 

I know that wasn't to the topic of "Cardinal pessimism." It's easy to dislike them, but it's hard to be too pessimistic about a team that rarely has a losing season, much less a prolonged stretch of ineptitude like those so prevalent in Milwaukee and Chicago. This is probably what it feels like to be a Bears fan. They hate the Packers because their team can't be like the Packers.

 

The past 20 years or so the NL Central has been generally been pretty bad. Every now and then one of the other 4 (or 5) teams would put together a good year or two but it's really just been the Cardinals who have been consistency competent. Now I'm not saying their success has been because everyone else has been bad but it will be interesting to see how they do the next few years while the Cubs are riding high and the Brewers and Reds become legitimate.

[Dead Simmons]

Jericho said: The past 20 years or so the NL Central has been generally been pretty bad. Every now and then one of the other 4 (or 5) teams would put together a good year or two but it's really just been the Cardinals who have been consistency competent. Now I'm not saying their success has been because everyone else has been bad but it will be interesting to see how they do the next few years while the Cubs are riding high and the Brewers and Reds become legitimate.

 

Unbelievably the Reds are catching the Pirates, only one game back. I suspect the Bucs will unload 'Cutch and do the re-build thing.

[tmwiese55]

I saw something earlier that since some date in late July, something like the 28th the Reds are the 3rd best record in the NL (hope I'm not remembering wrong that it's 3rd best in NL central). I'll see if I can find it.

 

Here it is: "Since a loss on July 29, the Reds are 25-22 -- and that's only four games worse than the Cubs and Nationals for the best record in the NL in that time frame."

 

I'm guessing there's a bunch of teams clumped right there and that might not technically mean 3rd in the NL the way I remembered, but still.

[brewerfan82]

Found a good tool on baseball-reference for this: https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/?month=7&day=29&year=2017

 

They have the 6th best NL record in that timeframe with the Cubs (29-18), Nationals (30-19), Cardinals (27-19), Brewers (26-19), and Diamondbacks (27-21) ahead of them. The Pirates are 18-30 in that timeframe, oof.

[monty57]

Jericho said: The past 20 years or so the NL Central has been generally been pretty bad. Every now and then one of the other 4 (or 5) teams would put together a good year or two but it's really just been the Cardinals who have been consistency competent. Now I'm not saying their success has been because everyone else has been bad but it will be interesting to see how they do the next few years while the Cubs are riding high and the Brewers and Reds become legitimate.

 

Unbelievably the Reds are catching the Pirates, only one game back. I suspect the Bucs will unload 'Cutch and do the re-build thing.

 

The Pirates have been interesting to me because they seem to want to follow in the "Tampa model." As has been shown in Tampa and now LA, Friedman is a genius, and it may take someone like him to run that model successfully. It sure hasn't worked in Tampa since he left.

 

Something like the Cardinal model may be more realistic to try to emulate. First, determine the type players you are going to target. If a player fits, get him. If a player doesn't fit, trade him when his value is high. Sometimes you trade MLB players for youth, while sometimes you trade prospects for MLB players, but you never go "all in" one way or the other. Always have a strong farm so you can add good, cheap, controllable talent from the system. As you continue to win, you build a strong fan base so your TV dollars go up and you can gradually increase payroll beyond the norm for a market your size.

 

This seems to be what they Cards have done for a long time, and it seems to be what Stearns is doing so far with the Brewers. Now, he just has to go through a full cycle (both winning and losing) and see if he continues to stick to his guns. There is a lot of pressure to dump a long-term plan and go "all in" when the team starts to win some games.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

I hope you're right, monty. I hate the Cardinals more than any other pro sports team, but I'd trade places with them in a heartbeat.

 

Emulating that model makes sense. I just hope it works in a market like Milwaukee, one without a long history of success. The attendance for the Brewers is excellent, so I see no reason why it can't work. The issue might be media/fan pressure about not "going for it" getting to Stearns. Crossing my fingers that doesn't happen.

 

Depth has been a big part of the approach so far. Nelson's injury looms large. Losing a starting pitcher looks like the thing that will really test this organization and the DS approach. I expect this offseason to be filled with bullpen acquisitions and some decisions about players like Broxton, Phillips, Brinson, Santana (I know others may think this is crazy, but he seems like a potential "trade high" candidate--NOT saying I want him traded, but DS should be listening to offers), Perez, Aguilar, and Thames. Does the Crew go with a platoon approach or try to deal from for top-third BP arms/#2 or #3 rotation types?

 

Since this is the Cardinal pessimism thread, I'll add that the Cards are going to lose tonight. And the Brewers will clinch the playoffs at Busch Stadium, engage in a ceremonial untucking around the pitcher's mound, have Nyjer Morgan make a guest appearance to drop an expletive in the postgame interview, and rip Thames' shirt off again while Chris Carpenter's son looks on in stunned horror.

[hawing]

I'll say this: I hate the Cardinals less than I used to. Matheny is a sanctimonious tool, but LaRussa is probably the worst human being to soil MLB in my lifetime...

I've got to ask, gregmag: worse than Sal Bando? I still have fond memories of a blistering screed you posted here years ago about Bando.

[3and2Fastball]

Who cares about the Cardinals? What a boring, pathetically hypocritical franchise. MLB should have thrown the book at them after the Astros database scandal and gutted them top to bottom. Let them become a AAA team or move out of state like the football Cardinals did.

 

They are by far my 2nd least favorite sports team, trailing only Penn State football who are even more hypocritical.

[reillymcshane]

I'll say this: I hate the Cardinals less than I used to. Matheny is a sanctimonious tool, but LaRussa is probably the worst human being to soil MLB in my lifetime...

I've got to ask, gregmag: worse than Sal Bando? I still have fond memories of a blistering screed you posted here years ago about Bando.

I think Bando was just an idiot. How he kept his job so long is a testimony to the incompetence of ownership during that time.

 

Perhaps he was a jerk as well -- don't really know. I just know he was a horrible GM who set the franchise back years because of his poor decision-making.

[gregmag]

I'll say this: I hate the Cardinals less than I used to. Matheny is a sanctimonious tool, but LaRussa is probably the worst human being to soil MLB in my lifetime...

I've got to ask, gregmag: worse than Sal Bando? I still have fond memories of a blistering screed you posted here years ago about Bando.

I think Bando was just an idiot. How he kept his job so long is a testimony to the incompetence of ownership during that time.

 

Perhaps he was a jerk as well -- don't really know. I just know he was a horrible GM who set the franchise back years because of his poor decision-making.

Heh. Bando actually crossed my mind when I wrote that, which shows how deeply I hate him. But I think reilly's right. I recall that Bando was somewhat abrasive, but any of us would be abrasive if we did six things every day to screw up the team and then everybody with two brain cells to rub together was constantly asking what the hell we were thinking. It's hard to be pleasant when you're that stupid. Certainly Bando drained more hope and joy out of my life than any other sports person ever. LaRussa I just loathe personally based on everything I know about him. If you combined LaRussa's skills and Bando's character, you'd have Earl Weaver. Of course, if you combined Bando's skills and LaRussa's character, you'd have Sarah Palin.

[Dead Simmons]

I hope you're right, monty. I hate the Cardinals more than any other pro sports team, but I'd trade places with them in a heartbeat.

 

Emulating that model makes sense. I just hope it works in a market like Milwaukee, one without a long history of success. The attendance for the Brewers is excellent, so I see no reason why it can't work. The issue might be media/fan pressure about not "going for it" getting to Stearns. Crossing my fingers that doesn't happen.

 

Depth has been a big part of the approach so far. Nelson's injury looms large. Losing a starting pitcher looks like the thing that will really test this organization and the DS approach. I expect this offseason to be filled with bullpen acquisitions and some decisions about players like Broxton, Phillips, Brinson, Santana (I know others may think this is crazy, but he seems like a potential "trade high" candidate--NOT saying I want him traded, but DS should be listening to offers), Perez, Aguilar, and Thames. Does the Crew go with a platoon approach or try to deal from for top-third BP arms/#2 or #3 rotation types?

 

Since this is the Cardinal pessimism thread, I'll add that the Cards are going to lose tonight. And the Brewers will clinch the playoffs at Busch Stadium, engage in a ceremonial untucking around the pitcher's mound, have Nyjer Morgan make a guest appearance to drop an expletive in the postgame interview, and rip Thames' shirt off again while Chris Carpenter's son looks on in stunned horror.

The post of the day!

 

On Nyjer: I do remember some issue with him around 2010 or so. Please refresh my memory.

[Baldkin]

 

On Nyjer: I do remember some issue with him around 2010 or so. Please refresh my memory.

 

It was 2011.

[Dead Simmons]

 

On Nyjer: I do remember some issue with him around 2010 or so. Please refresh my memory.

 

It was 2011.

I do remember seeing that on the highlights (missed the game)

 

Thanks

[pacopete4]

Annnd the Cardinals have a better record than us now. Just to make the last three games that much more frustrating. If we aren't going to get that 2nd WC, I sure hope the Rockies hold onto it.

[3and2Fastball]

Isn't there a Cardinal forum somewhere? Who cares about that goofy franchise?!

[Dead Simmons]

Have to say that you guys are playing the Cubs tough. The Pirates crushed us tonight and my thinking is that neither one of us is gonna catch the Cubs with only 8 games left. They are NOT going to just collapse, and I will bet money that we will lay down to them in those last 4 games vs. them.

 

The team to watch is the Rockies. They have seemed to forget how to hit...shut out 3 times this week!

[Pugger]

Typical Cardinals...

 

Root for them to lose every game, they win. Root for them to help our chances in the NL Central race, they lose. Even if it hurt their chances as well, typical of them to hurt us win or lose now.

 

Maybe we should be rooting for them to win but with our luck they'll win anyway...

[jerichoholicninja]

Go Cubs?

 

Puke.

[Warning Track Power]

My big fear...we are tied for the Wild Card heading into the weekend. The Rockies win 1 of 3 against the Dodgers...Cardinals sweep us and we are 1 back at the end of the season. The devil magic always ruins our best chances and most fun seasons (1982, 2011).

 

Alas, 2017 the year the devil curse was broke!

[jerichoholicninja]

My big fear...we are tied for the Wild Card heading into the weekend. The Rockies win 1 of 3 against the Dodgers...Cardinals sweep us and we are 1 back at the end of the season. The devil magic always ruins our best chances and most fun seasons (1982, 2011).

 

Alas, 2017 the year the devil curse was broke!

 

I told my Brewer fan friends the Cards will sweep us to end the season and win the wild card. They all agreed.

[mtrebs]

My big fear...we are tied for the Wild Card heading into the weekend. The Rockies win 1 of 3 against the Dodgers...Cardinals sweep us and we are 1 back at the end of the season. The devil magic always ruins our best chances and most fun seasons (1982, 2011).

 

Alas, 2017 the year the devil curse was broke!

 

I told my Brewer fan friends the Cards will sweep us to end the season and win the wild card. They all agreed.

 

Well, St. Louis was just eliminated. They should let us sweep for killing us in 1982 and 2011.

[SomewhereInTime]

Better luck next year Cardinals!

[pacopete4]

Better luck next year Cardinals!