2018 Bullpen

[sveumrules]

FanGraphs article from today with some quotes from Hader & CC...

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/josh-hader-post-label-star/

[JohnBriggs12]

Not all bullpen moves work out. Logan and Albers look about done. Jennings shaky too but at least he can mop up. There's too many good young arms in the system (Houser, Derby, Perrin) to keep trotting these guys out there.

[FVBrewerFan]

Not all bullpen moves work out. Logan and Albers look about done. Jennings shaky too but at least he can mop up. There's too many good young arms in the system (Houser, Derby, Perrin) to keep trotting these guys out there.

 

It's a long season. Obviously Albers doesn't look right, but he was very effective most of the year, and could very well get it back. Most BP arms are not Hader, they're just not going to be lights-out for 6 months.

 

Logan on the other hand has never looked good this year, Jennings really hasn't for quite a while either. I don't think Derby or Perrin are the answers you're looking for. Houser, Ramirez, Torres-Costa could be better options though. At least worth trying.

 

Until/unless Albers gets it back, Williams should be seen as the 4th best guy, then Barnes/Houser. Round out the pen with Ramirez and Torres-Costa to see what they can do, and keep your eyes open for other options as the season goes on. The pen is always a work in progress.

[pacopete4]

Nick Ramirez. All he does is get people out.

[tmwiese55]

Albers might need a 10 day DL to just refresh or rest. he was good until recently. velocity still there. I don't see why he can't be a solid contributor but just might need a recharge like Barnes got

[adambr2]

Albers might need a 10 day DL to just refresh or rest. he was good until recently. velocity still there. I don't see why he can't be a solid contributor but just might need a recharge like Barnes got

 

Velocity still there? He was sitting 88-90 and touched 91 once. His first pitch was a 4 seamer at 88, middle up, nothing more than a BP fastball.

 

If anything is wrong with him or he's got a dead arm or whatever I agree on a 10 day DL stint for Albers. Otherwise he needs to be the 6th or 7th arm in the pen right now.

 

I'd like to see Ramirez and Torres-Costa promoted to AAA immediately and then take the most successful of the two in a month. I'd promote whoever in the meantime, Lopez or Houser I guess. I've got no use for Logan anymore and they should just cut their losses with him. Basically all of the pen struggles coincided with when they finally activated him off the DL.

[pacopete4]

I’m a big guy. I could be in a lot better shape. I can’t imagine pitching pro ball at the weight I am at. I’ll be frank. Albers has a huge gut. It can’t help things. I’ll never understand these guys that wouldn’t want to be in the best possible shape that they can. Or at least in respectable shape. Not saying it’s the reason for his lack of success lately but it sure can’t help him much.

[tmwiese55]

Albers might need a 10 day DL to just refresh or rest. he was good until recently. velocity still there. I don't see why he can't be a solid contributor but just might need a recharge like Barnes got

 

Velocity still there? He was sitting 88-90 and touched 91 once. His first pitch was a 4 seamer at 88, middle up, nothing more than a BP fastball.

 

If anything is wrong with him or he's got a dead arm or whatever I agree on a 10 day DL stint for Albers. Otherwise he needs to be the 6th or 7th arm in the pen right now.

 

I'd like to see Ramirez and Torres-Costa promoted to AAA immediately and then take the most successful of the two in a month. I'd promote whoever in the meantime, Lopez or Houser I guess. I've got no use for Logan anymore and they should just cut their losses with him. Basically all of the pen struggles coincided with when they finally activated him off the DL.

 

Missed that last night then but I thought in previous games he was still fine, could be wrong though. I do think I had my contacts out last night by the time he was pitching so that explains it, haha. and his fastball usually moves a bit and obviously slider has good bite. But yea if speed was down last night that's usually an obvious sign there, guy needs a rest.

[adambr2]

Albers is going to be fine, eventually. He was very good for the first 2 months this season and will be very good again.

 

Frankly, we need to do a better job recognizing when guys in the pen 'aren't right.' Albers was pretty clearly not right lately judging from his poor results and lower velocity and his first pitch Monday night pretty much confirmed it as did his DL stint that now follows.

 

And frankly guys need to be a little more honest on how they feel if something isn't right. Everyone in this pen is going to go through a time this season where something isn't right, dead arm, whatever. The more we can be proactive about it and not reactive we can be, the better. I get that the tendency for them is to try to pitch through whatever but especially veterans like Albers need to understand that it isn't going to do either them nor the team any good.

[clancyphile]

With who the Crew had, I didn't like the Logan and Albers signings.

 

Albers was lights out until recently, but Logan... the Crew could have gotten the same numbers with Wei-Chung Wang.

 

Right now, you have the Nasty Boys of Knebel/Hader/Jeffress as the top tier, with Taylor Williams and Barnes as the second tier. Jennings hasn't been too bad, and the last two slots seem to be held down by a rotation with Albers out.

[djoctagone]

Nick Ramirez. All he does is get people out.

I think it's time to take a look at adding (Jon) Perrin to the 40 man. He's transitioned well to a strictly relief role in AAA.

working against those guys:

 

--40-man is currently full

--a 40-man spot will eventually be needed when jimmy nelson is activated

--nick franklin is holding down a spot and can't be outrighted until he clears his injury, or until the club moves him to the 60-day disabled list

--tyler saladino is on the disabled list, which likely necessitates keeping both eric sogard and brad miller on the 40-man for depth

--keon broxton is still on the 40-man

--the brewers are unlikely to recall mauricio dubon just to place him on the 60-day disabled list, as he would accrue major league pay and service time

[FVBrewerFan]

What's working against Perrin is he doesn't give you anything you don't already have.

 

Torres-Costa and Ramirez are both LHP, and I wouldn't think twice about DFA Logan trying one of those guys in his place. So I don't see not being on the 40 being an issue. They're giving it more time, which is fine, but they can pull the trigger on this move any time.

[istanbultaye]

Logan has had 14 appearances and ~ half of them have been what I'd call successful from a quick review of the game logs. I try to avoid rushing to judgement on relief pitchers especially, but I think he needs to have 4-5 good outings in the next 6, or be one of the candidates for swapping out for fresh arm, even if it means DFA.

[Tbadder]

I think the Brewers are better with Houser. Albers, I’m guessing, will return to form. Worried about Logan though. I hope it’s not that good year/bad year thing that relievers go through. And I’m more than just a little relieved that CC implied Hader’s innings would shorten up a bit.

[Tbadder]

I think the Brewers are better with Houser. Albers, I’m guessing, will return to form. Worried about Logan though. I hope it’s not that good year/bad year thing that relievers go through. And I’m more than just a little relieved that CC implied Hader’s innings would shorten up a bit.

[YelichPosse]

Boone Logan has worn out his welcome as far as I'm concerned ... A Houser or Ramirez would be fantastic in his place. Especially with the emerging Barnes, and Williams. Now can either of those two be trusted in higher leverage situations. I am not sure yet, however, with their "stuff", if they pitch well, we have not just a super front line pen, but a solid back end as well!

[FVBrewerFan]

Houser is seen at the moment as a starter. Sure, they could still add him to the pen at any time but that doesn't solve the Logan problem. They need to replace him with a LHP, either QTC or Ramirez.

[tmwiese55]

You stilll have Hader and Jennings as other lefties so I wouldn't say it's essential to get some kind of lefty specialist. Sure, that would be the preference. But I'd rather get a legit good pitcher up here instead of trying to force someone because they're lefty, like they did for 1.5 years with Drake because of the reverse splits on him.

[FVBrewerFan]

You stilll have Hader and Jennings as other lefties so I wouldn't say it's essential to get some kind of lefty specialist. Sure, that would be the preference. But I'd rather get a legit good pitcher up here instead of trying to force someone because they're lefty, like they did for 1.5 years with Drake because of the reverse splits on him.

 

I don't want to force it either, I agree. But it would help tremendously to have a true LOOGY in the pen. Hader isn't used that way, obviously. Jennings isn't dominant enough against LH hitters to really fit that role. They obviously have a lot more info on QTC and Ramirez than we do, but if either has the right stuff that would be nasty on LH at the MLB level, that would be worth trying for sure.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

You stilll have Hader and Jennings as other lefties so I wouldn't say it's essential to get some kind of lefty specialist. Sure, that would be the preference. But I'd rather get a legit good pitcher up here instead of trying to force someone because they're lefty, like they did for 1.5 years with Drake because of the reverse splits on him.

 

Exactly, plus you can add Suter to that mix once Davies or Miley comes back. Granted Hader and Jennings aren't necessarily lefty specialists, but Counsell hasn't been using Logan that way anyway, so that doesn't matter. Logan wouldn't need to be replaced with a lefty. I love that they are stretching out Houser as a starter at AAA, but his high 90s FB would be a nice fit at the back end of the MLB pen.

[YelichPosse]

You stilll have Hader and Jennings as other lefties so I wouldn't say it's essential to get some kind of lefty specialist. Sure, that would be the preference. But I'd rather get a legit good pitcher up here instead of trying to force someone because they're lefty, like they did for 1.5 years with Drake because of the reverse splits on him.

 

Exactly, plus you can add Suter to that mix once Davies or Miley comes back. Granted Hader and Jennings aren't necessarily lefty specialists, but Counsell hasn't been using Logan that way anyway, so that doesn't matter. Logan wouldn't need to be replaced with a lefty. I love that they are stretching out Houser as a starter at AAA, but his high 90s FB would be a nice fit at the back end of the MLB pen.

 

I remember a time in the not to distant past where Boone Logan this year, would still be the ace of the pen... how lucky we are this year.

 

I do agree we don't NEED a lefty specialist, as I much prefer a high octane arm to somebody you maybe use for a batter or two. If you have filthy stuff, doesn't matter who you're facing L or R, Hader has shown with his dominance vs L and R this year.

[Roderick]

You stilll have Hader and Jennings as other lefties so I wouldn't say it's essential to get some kind of lefty specialist. Sure, that would be the preference. But I'd rather get a legit good pitcher up here instead of trying to force someone because they're lefty, like they did for 1.5 years with Drake because of the reverse splits on him.

 

I don't want to force it either, I agree. But it would help tremendously to have a true LOOGY in the pen. Hader isn't used that way, obviously. Jennings isn't dominant enough against LH hitters to really fit that role. They obviously have a lot more info on QTC and Ramirez than we do, but if either has the right stuff that would be nasty on LH at the MLB level, that would be worth trying for sure.

 

Just going by their minor league stats, neither Ramirez or QTC is a loogy. They have good numbers across the board, but if anything it appears they may be a smidge better against righties than lefties.

[djoctagone]

adrian houser recalled. jorge lopez optioned.

 

brandon woodruff was optioned 11 june. both he and lopez must stay optioned for at least 10 days.

 

alec asher and aaron wilkerson can be recalled at any point.

[pacopete4]

As the bullpen begins to falter a bit, it will be interesting to see if they can fight through it and continue winning.

[long ball]

An interesting piece in The Athletic today by Eno Sarris about the fireman role. https://theathletic.com/400794/2018/06/21/sarris-on-the-return-of-the-bullpen-fireman/ (subscription required)

 

He opined that the Brewers have started to alter their strategy with Hader given their struggles in games following games in which he's pitched. He hasn't pitched 2 full innings in ~ 1 month. I don't necessarily agree they've actually changed how they're using Hader. They've been very conservative in how he's been used though. Stearns mentioned on the broadcast a while back that when he throws 30+ pitches they will give him 2 days off.

 

I think the way Hader has been used so far this season is perfect. While yes, he's been unavailable at times, the overall record in games he has pitched (especially multiple innings) outweighs the drawback of him being unavailable.

 

I looked at every game in which he has pitched (22-2 record). I also looked at games in which he was "likely unavailable". I defined those as the 2 days following appearances of 1.1 or longer. The Brewers are 11-14 in those games. 8 of those losses could be directly linked to the bullpen giving up the tie or lead (I included allowing an inherited runner from a SP to score in that count). (I have more notes on these games if anyone is interested i can send them the google sheet)

 

Overall they're 33-16 in games Hader either pitched or was unavailable. That's a .673 clip.