TJ Watt

[OnTheBlack]

Anyone else starting to get that sinking feeling that the Packers may have really blown it with their first pick by passing on TJ Watt(trading down) and instead going with need by picking King?

 

He had a big pre-season and then came out and had 2 sacks and a pretty impressive leaping pick as an OLB'er dropping in coverage and snagging a deep out or a comeback(couldn't tell which from the highlight).

 

I know the narrative was that they ended up getting an extremely athletic CB in King who is 6'3 and the more productive OLB'er at Wisconsin in Biegel with the decision to pass on Watt at 28 and move down 5 spots...but I think everyone could see Watt was more athletic than Biegel.

 

I understand why they made the picks they made, and I'm absolutely not questioning Kevin King or Vince Biegel at this point...but man, TJ Watt really does look like the OLB'er version of his big bro right now.

[docduany]

I wanted Watt to be a Packer in the worst way. I believe the Pack thought the would get TJ with the first pick in the 2nd round. I think he could be special. He could be the one who got away.

[CheezWizHed]

Its hard to say, but certainly is in the short term.

[trwi7]

I wanted Watt or Foster.

[OnTheBlack]

I wanted Watt to be a Packer in the worst way. I believe the Pack thought the would get TJ with the first pick in the 2nd round. I think he could be special. He could be the one who got away.

 

 

He definitely looks like he could be special...but I don't think the Packers would have passed if they were that confident he was gonna be there at 33. I think people had a pretty strong feeling given the Steelers need at OLB'er that they were gonna take one and Watt was up there on the board.

 

It's just going to be that much worse if he becomes a superstar given that we had a shot at him. I completely understand why they moved back, but after watching him today...he looked like a bigger, longer version of Clay Matthews. If that's the case, it'd be real tough for King to measure up.

 

Of course as CheezeWiz points out, it's early.

[OnTheBlack]

I wanted Watt or Foster.

 

 

I think all Packer and Badgers fans were torn. Watt looked really talented in his one year starting for the Badgers, but watching Gunter line up as our top CB last year and getting torched in the NFC Championship game it was hard to question Thompson's logic in filling our biggest need with Rodgers in his prime.

 

Foster looks a bit like Ray Lewis did coming out of Miami but I didn't think the Packers were go with a MLB'er over OLB'er and Corner.

[Crash2303]

yes, after yesterday's performance, definitely had that sinking feeling. as one of the radio guys said a few weeks ago, the decision not to draft Watts will be second-guessed for years to come. but gotta admire Thompson's stones for knowing that and going with what he felt was best. like all wisco fans, loved watt, but also love biegel of course and king's upside. hopefully watt and Biegel/King all have long, excellent careers.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I know it's difficult to remove the Wisconsin homer glasses, but I think we should wait until the end of the season before making the determination that Watt is more valuable than King/Biegel. Heck, they are one game into the season, and Biegel hasn't even played a down for the team. Watt would have had a ton of pressure on him had he gone to GB. Plus he wasn't exactly known for his durability while in Madison.

[tmwiese55]

I wanted Watt or Foster.

 

 

I think all Packer and Badgers fans were torn. Watt looked really talented in his one year starting for the Badgers, but watching Gunter line up as our top CB last year and getting torched in the NFC Championship game it was hard to question Thompson's logic in filling our biggest need with Rodgers in his prime.

 

.

 

Yup, last season was essentially ruined by the worst defensive backfield probably assembled in the modern era. They had to focus on that glaring need. And knowing they likely would've taken King where they were picking anyway, they were smart to move back 5 spots and still get their guy plus another pick. You don't always want to draft for need, but in this case the need was so glaring beyond a normal weakness that they didn't really have a choice.

[Warning Track Power]

If you watched the Packers last year, and even in yesterday's game, the weakness on D was not with the pass rush. When healthy, Clay, Perry, Daniels consistently make the push. It was quite evident at the end of last year, the true deficiency was CB. Randall, Rollins and Gunter all looked like 4th or 5th CBs. While House could be a 2 or 3, it was apparent CB was the largest need. King was the best player at the position left and Biegel was an added bonus. If Watt had been say a Trojan or Seminole or Longhorn, the hand-wringing would be much less. It's because Watt is one of our own that we have a what-if perspective.

[LouisEly]

Snap count: Kevin King - 6, Josh Jones - 0

 

Watt's number of impact plays was half of the total number of snaps of King and Jones.

[GAME05]

I agree with Warning Track; have Watt play at UCF instead of Wisconsin and you'd have a few people who'd have wanted him, but not to this degree. I try to feel better by remembering that Biegel wouldn't have been a Packer if we hadn't taken King. Maybe there's also some shades of Troy Vincent vs. Terrell Buckley with the Watt situation, too, knowing that passing on a Badger hasn't always been the best decision.

[trwi7]

If you watched the Packers last year, and even in yesterday's game, the weakness on D was not with the pass rush. When healthy, Clay, Perry, Daniels consistently make the push. It was quite evident at the end of last year, the true deficiency was CB. Randall, Rollins and Gunter all looked like 4th or 5th CBs. While House could be a 2 or 3, it was apparent CB was the largest need. King was the best player at the position left and Biegel was an added bonus. If Watt had been say a Trojan or Seminole or Longhorn, the hand-wringing would be much less. It's because Watt is one of our own that we have a what-if perspective.

 

So drafting for need instead of BPA?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Snap count: Kevin King - 6, Josh Jones - 0

 

Watt's number of impact plays was half of the total number of snaps of King and Jones.

 

Dom is not a fan of playing rookies when he has other options, especially early in the season. I hate to sound like the "small sample alert" police here, but come on. It's one game into the season!

 

As far as drafting for need over BPA, who says King wasn't ranked higher than Watt on the Packers' board?

[CheezWizHed]

As far as drafting for need over BPA, who says King wasn't ranked higher than Watt on the Packers' board?

 

Technically, they didn't draft King over Watt. They traded down over drafting Watt. After trading down, they didn't have the choice to draft Watt.

 

Pretty typical TT is having a number of similarly ranked players and trading down. Pick up a draft pick while still getting one of the group.

 

I think the only effect of Watt being a Badger is that we got to see his progression up front and close. I don't think we wanted him BECAUSE he was a Badger. Given how little development time he had at OLB after moving from TE and how well he played... it was tantalizing to think what he could become.

[Warning Track Power]

If you watched the Packers last year, and even in yesterday's game, the weakness on D was not with the pass rush. When healthy, Clay, Perry, Daniels consistently make the push. It was quite evident at the end of last year, the true deficiency was CB. Randall, Rollins and Gunter all looked like 4th or 5th CBs. While House could be a 2 or 3, it was apparent CB was the largest need. King was the best player at the position left and Biegel was an added bonus. If Watt had been say a Trojan or Seminole or Longhorn, the hand-wringing would be much less. It's because Watt is one of our own that we have a what-if perspective.

 

So drafting for need instead of BPA?

And had they drafted Watt would you say they are wasting the best years of Rodgers by not addressing their most obvious need?

[trwi7]

If you watched the Packers last year, and even in yesterday's game, the weakness on D was not with the pass rush. When healthy, Clay, Perry, Daniels consistently make the push. It was quite evident at the end of last year, the true deficiency was CB. Randall, Rollins and Gunter all looked like 4th or 5th CBs. While House could be a 2 or 3, it was apparent CB was the largest need. King was the best player at the position left and Biegel was an added bonus. If Watt had been say a Trojan or Seminole or Longhorn, the hand-wringing would be much less. It's because Watt is one of our own that we have a what-if perspective.

 

So drafting for need instead of BPA?

And had they drafted Watt would you say they are wasting the best years of Rodgers by not addressing their most obvious need?

 

I'd just like TT to not draft complete scrubs like Randall and Rollins were last year, realize that he drafted complete scrubs and then compound that by taking a player at a position of need (because he sucked at drafting two players in the 1st and 2nd round a year before) over more talented players who also fit our system/fill a need.

[LouisEly]

Randall and Rollins were hurt last year. Randall had leg surgery in the middle of the season and then returned to play. Corners who don't have legs that are 100% don't do well.

[OnTheBlack]

I know it's difficult to remove the Wisconsin homer glasses, but I think we should wait until the end of the season before making the determination that Watt is more valuable than King/Biegel. Heck, they are one game into the season, and Biegel hasn't even played a down for the team. Watt would have had a ton of pressure on him had he gone to GB. Plus he wasn't exactly known for his durability while in Madison.

 

 

I haven't seen anyone..at least up until your post suggest otherwise. In fact, I tried to go out of my way to say that this had nothing to do with King or Biegel and that it's way too early to say anything about them(good or bad).

 

But I also certainly don't buy that the pressure he would have faced would have meant anything....like..at all. Biegel's from closer to GB and played at Wisconsin. Watt has an older Brother who's the best player in the NFL when compared to others at his position. And he went to a team that's produced HOF, AP and Pro Bowl LB'ers non-stop for decades. I think the pressure is there.

Also, while Watt wasn't known for durability, it was a broken foot and it was one season.

 

There was no strong argument AGAINST Watt. The argument was more FOR a CB. I will never be one of those who bashes TT regardless how good TJ becomes...even if he becomes better than JJ, because at the time, it was hard to argue with his logic.

 

 

This thread has been about how good TJ Watt is, not about what King or Biegel have or haven't done.

[OnTheBlack]

If you watched the Packers last year, and even in yesterday's game, the weakness on D was not with the pass rush. When healthy, Clay, Perry, Daniels consistently make the push. It was quite evident at the end of last year, the true deficiency was CB. Randall, Rollins and Gunter all looked like 4th or 5th CBs. While House could be a 2 or 3, it was apparent CB was the largest need. King was the best player at the position left and Biegel was an added bonus. If Watt had been say a Trojan or Seminole or Longhorn, the hand-wringing would be much less. It's because Watt is one of our own that we have a what-if perspective.

 

So drafting for need instead of BPA?

 

 

My guess is that their boards has King really close to Watt. In fact, I don't remember who the 5 guys were(you mentioned Foster) but there were 5 guys who fit our needs and who were all really good players.

 

I think at the Packers pick, they just saw a group of guys all rated really close on their board and jumped on the chance to grab the 1st pick in the 4th.

 

And you know in the NFL need is always factored into picking unless there's a major discrepancy. So if they had Watt just a hair above King, thought they could trade back and get King, it made sense. I don't think they thought there was any chance Watt would be available at 33 with the Steelers lurking, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

 

And I don't think it's because Watt's a Wisconsin kid. I think it's because he has a Brother who's on his way to becoming an all-time great and he's jumped out to a ridiculously good start. Though maybe having watched him make some of the plays he made last year did help bump him up. That screen that he picked and took to the house really stands out in my mind as being an extremely athletic play.

[OnTheBlack]

Randall and Rollins were hurt last year. Randall had leg surgery in the middle of the season and then returned to play. Corners who don't have legs that are 100% don't do well.

 

 

It's just totally ridiculous to call either a scrub at this point in their career first of all. Especially when they both had very strong rookie seasons despite such limited experience playing football, and then like you say, suffered injuries that Corners just cannot play with.

 

If anything, they shouldn't have been out there at all last year. I don't know how the hell anyone could cover an NFL WR'er less than a month and a half after having surgery for a torn groin. It's just insane given the change of direction needed.

 

Also, this is just speculation that he drafted for need. Nobody knows that to be the case and people DEFINITELY weren't upset during the draft. Almost every Packers fan at the time was thrilled with what they came away with.

 

Lets keep in mind, as long and as athletic as Watt looks, it takes longer for a CB to develop and we DO have a 6'3 CB who ran a 4.4 40 and who showed in the pre-season he can come up and hit a guy.

 

This thread is NOT meant to be a referendum so much on King(especially at this point) as how surprisingly impressive Watt has looked(through one regular season game and the pre-season).

[LouisEly]

King was drafted to replace Shields whose career was over, not to replace Randall or Rollins. In today's NFL, corners are like starting pitchers - there is no such thing as too many good ones.

 

Anyone who paid attention to the combine knows that Watt blew it up and was one of the two most athletic LBs there. His college progression eerily mirrored CMIII - very athletic, limited experience at position. What Watt did his junior year, after essentially only one year of practicing at OLB, was pretty amazing.

[OnTheBlack]

King was drafted to replace Shields whose career was over, not to replace Randall or Rollins. In today's NFL, corners are like starting pitchers - there is no such thing as too many good ones.

 

Anyone who paid attention to the combine knows that Watt blew it up and was one of the two most athletic LBs there. His college progression eerily mirrored CMIII - very athletic, limited experience at position. What Watt did his junior year, after essentially only one year of practicing at OLB, was pretty amazing.

 

 

 

Everyone wanted Watt. But very-very few Packers fans were upset after the way the draft played out. If there are people calling for Thompson's head in 3-4 years(IF-IF-IF King/Biegel aren't studs and Watt is a star) it'll be disingenuous.

 

Rollins is a guy who is really versatile. I think he's basically a little more athletic version of Hyde. Randall is more of a quick twitch athlete and is more capable of playing outside. Both played very well this past week(as well as their rookie years and early last year before getting hurt, see Randall's game saving play vs Jax). Heck, we never would have let Heyward go had Randall and Rollins not played so well as rookies. That's a move that you can't blame Thompson for, but in retrospect would have liked to have been able to go back and do differently.

 

But as you say, we lost our #1 WR'er. I would like to see them upgrade their MLB'er position and I think Foster could be really good, but I'd have been upset if they'd have gone that direction over CB/OLB'er. That was closer to RB in terms of need.

 

It's not a surprise though when you lose one of the best players in the game at a particular position when you try to replenish that the following year. Frankly, Thompson blew it the last couple times we had significant injuries to big time players(Collins and Finley) by not addressing the problem and we ended up blowing games because we had Peprah, M.D Jennings, Banjo, Quarless, Bostick, Backman, Perillo among others. So we had to do something at CB and there just happened to be a group of players available that were ranked similarly at least from the outside, one of whom we were guaranteed to get if we moved back. And had Thompson NOT picked a CB first, I think that would have gotten a lot of negative reactions. You really do need to be 4-5 deep there.

 

I wish I could have worded this better. I don't think it's really fair to make this a Watt vs King/Biegel type thread. It's really just a TJ Watt thread...though the comparisons are inevitably going to be made. I'm still really high on King and think Biegel could be a solid rotational player. An upgrade from Fackrell at least.

 

Now Thompson could have made everyone happy by finally going out and nabbing a top free agent in Gillmore or AJ Boyle for roughly what Shields was making and then grabbed Watt in the 1st...but that was never gonna happen.

[chuckiehacks]

Watt Week 2 - two assisted tackles, while King played pretty well against one of the best WRs in the league.

[pacopete4]

Watt Week 2 - two assisted tackles, while King played pretty well against one of the best WRs in the league.

 

I watched about 10 plays total of the Vikings-Steelers game and in those few plays, I saw him bat down a ball and get heavy pressure on the QB two other plays. I also saw him standing on the sideline during one series of Vikings offense, wasn't sure if he got hurt or not.