2018 Starting Rotation

[TJseven7]

Ok who are you burying because you want to try an allstar elsewhere.

 

Where's Chacin Suter?

Where's Burnes Peralta?

Where's anyone in the next wave who arrives in under 3 years?

How many years of all star are you willing to blow "trying" it.

[pacopete4]

Ok who are you burying because you want to try an allstar elsewhere.

 

Where's Chacin Suter?

Where's Burnes Peralta?

Where's anyone in the next wave who arrives in under 3 years?

How many years of all star are you willing to blow "trying" it.

 

You say blow as if it is a certainty. Your last sentence is what gets you in trouble around here.

 

Right now Suter and Chacin are taking starts. I would’ve had no issue without either of those two being in our rotation if it meant Hader was getting his shot at a rotation spot. And he may be an all star this year. Again, not a certainty. And we aren’t winning the series this year, so a perfect opportunity to see what Hader has is lost. Who gives a rats behind if it possibly took away an all star year from him. Maybe he wins rookie of the year as a pitcher. You just don’t know. Not trying it is silly.

[adambr2]

I think the odds of Josh Hader turning into Chris Sale are much slimmer than we want to believe, certainly slim right now. Chris Sale is approaching generational pitcher status. That's a lofty expectation. He has three elite pitches, Hader has one, although his slider is getting close to that range too. I understand people's frustrations that he hasn't been tried, but I don't think it's silly. Long-term they may have a plan for making it happen, and that plan may involve him still pitching out of the pen this year.

 

Maybe they want to refine and tune before they try him out starting again, and he wouldn't be the first. They may want him to work on his change -- finding that 3rd high end pitch may be the difference between him making it as a starter or being a career reliever. It's much easier for him to work on that in short stints in the pen than as a starter. They may want to make sure he's as developed for a starting role as possible before making that move. And if they move him before he's ready and it doesn't work and they choose to reverse course, it may be harder to go down that road again.

[paul253]

Sorry a few pages behind here.

 

Those were the best options for upgrading the team this year.

 

I think the best options would have been trading our prospects for pitching as opposed to an outfielder. I think we could have gotten a quality starter for Brinson, Harrison, +. It’s impossible to know if that would have made the team better both now and in the long run but it certainly would have made more sense. Had that happened the Cain signing still would have made plenty of sense.

 

I believe we (stearns group) had zero faith in Brinson all along

 

Yet they reportedly wouldn’t include him in a deal for two plus years of Gray or Quintana.

 

Yep. Keep getting the best players at the best values and it will work itself out. It's reductionist thinking to say Cain and Yelich were a mistake if we didn't fix every single roster imbalance and build a contender in the season in which we acquired them.

 

That’s not at all what I am saying. But people can’t seriously expect to be contenders with this rotation. I’m sorry but it’s not just going to work itself out. Pitchers don’t just come along. You have to either develop them or go get them. I’m as high on Burnes and Ortiz and Peralta as the next guy but expecting them all to be just as good in the majors as they are now ignores history. The likelihood all three will be quality ML starters is tiny. I like Yelich. I do. But if we were willing to give up so many of our top prospects it should have been for pitching.

 

We have Williams Houser Burnes Peralta Woodruff. These aren't Cravy Jungemann level guys. These dudes got tools. You can see a path to an end with the pitching staff. You can't see that with LF CF. Brinsons going to take awhile. Phillips isnt top of the order

 

It kind of seems like you are assuming everything will work out fine for the pitchers and nothing will work out fine for the hitters. Brinson has just as good a chance to be a solid hitter as Houser and Peralta have at being solid pitchers.

 

TJseven7 said:

Who can be Hader as he is now?

 

 

Knebel Albers Williams Jeffress Jennings Peralta Houser Lopez Suter Griep and others. Who can give you 5 great innings to start a game? A lot fewer than that

 

Is this a joke? You think Suter, Lopez and Griep can produce like Hader can? Or even Jennings and Houser? Outside of possibly Knebel Hader is fat and away our best reliever. Very few if anybody in the system can produce like he is.

 

Hader did that in the minors for years at an extremely high level. Now suddenly it's impossible for him to pitch 5 innings?

 

Major league starters need to be able to go more than five innings. I think I remember stating in a similar debate that Hader didn’t go 6 innings as a starter in Milwaukee’s system one time. Not one 6 inning start. Plus his numbers weren’t all the impressive either. If you want to try him next spring go for it. But let’s temper our expectations a bit. He’d need to sure a heck of a lot more than he did in the minors.

[FVBrewerFan]

Ok who are you burying because you want to try an allstar elsewhere.

 

Where's Chacin Suter?

Where's Burnes Peralta?

Where's anyone in the next wave who arrives in under 3 years?

How many years of all star are you willing to blow "trying" it.

 

Hader is an All Star? Missed that announcement I guess. Where's Chacon and Suter? Who cares. Where's Burnes and Peralta? They haven't proven themselves at the MLB level, so why would you want them to have a spot?

[TURBO]

Quote from Paul253:

 

"I like Yelich. I do. But if we were willing to give up so many of our top prospects it should have been for pitching."

 

Absolutely 100% agree...

 

Not sure who was going to be available to us, but I am still surprised we sent all those farmhands away for an outfielder, the one position we seemed to be stocked at.

[TJseven7]

Ok who are you burying because you want to try an allstar elsewhere.

 

Where's Chacin Suter?

Where's Burnes Peralta?

Where's anyone in the next wave who arrives in under 3 years?

How many years of all star are you willing to blow "trying" it.

 

You say blow as if it is a certainty. Your last sentence is what gets you in trouble around here.

 

Right now Suter and Chacin are taking starts. I would’ve had no issue without either of those two being in our rotation if it meant Hader was getting his shot at a rotation spot. And he may be an all star this year. Again, not a certainty. And we aren’t winning the series this year, so a perfect opportunity to see what Hader has is lost. Who gives a rats behind if it possibly took away an all star year from him. Maybe he wins rookie of the year as a pitcher. You just don’t know. Not trying it is silly.

 

Asking questions gets me in trouble? Well here come trouble.

Haders a stud as is... agree disagree?

Do you expect him to struggle as a starter?

Do you expect him to go deep in games? Over 5?

How long are you going to watch an all star reliever struggle before you stop calling it growing pains?

Hey, we have Suter starting and Chacin and Miley was set to and Guerra tomorrow, Woodruff too. Don't you think if they thought Hader was an option he'd get a shot over that bunch?

Don't you think its odd that my wanting of Cobb was readily greeted with... the brain trust knows better... yet here you are calling those same people silly?

 

Strange people.

 

"TJseven7 said:

Who can be Hader as he is now?

 

Knebel Albers Williams Jeffress Jennings Peralta Houser Lopez Suter Griep and others. Who can give you 5 great innings to start a game? A lot fewer than that"

 

Clarifying this is 2 seperate posts.

 

"Yet they reportedly wouldn’t include him in a deal for two plus years of Gray or Quintana."

 

They weren't worth it. I stared Brinson was a value add. A guys value and the worth you see in him is a different thing. Do you remember the info leaked when the brinson trade happened? Our scouts wanted a different package. Melvin got involved.

 

"kind of seems like you are assuming everything will work out fine for the pitchers and nothing will work out fine for the hitters. Brinson has just as good a chance to be a solid hitter as Houser and Peralta have at being solid pitchers."

 

Not everything. I actually think woodruffs going to take awhile. Burnes and Peralta I'm not worried day 1. Peralta as a pen piece. Burnes starting. Housers just an extra. Do I think Burnes Nelson make the rotation deep enough with Chacin or Peralta or Woodruff... yes. Brinson is still very raw. He could work out... so could ray but neither look ready at the levels they are at. I simply think Brinsons going to take a good while, like woodruff and I'm far from alone on Brinson.

[pacopete4]

Ok who are you burying because you want to try an allstar elsewhere.

 

Where's Chacin Suter?

Where's Burnes Peralta?

Where's anyone in the next wave who arrives in under 3 years?

How many years of all star are you willing to blow "trying" it.

 

You say blow as if it is a certainty. Your last sentence is what gets you in trouble around here.

 

Right now Suter and Chacin are taking starts. I would’ve had no issue without either of those two being in our rotation if it meant Hader was getting his shot at a rotation spot. And he may be an all star this year. Again, not a certainty. And we aren’t winning the series this year, so a perfect opportunity to see what Hader has is lost. Who gives a rats behind if it possibly took away an all star year from him. Maybe he wins rookie of the year as a pitcher. You just don’t know. Not trying it is silly.

 

Asking questions gets me in trouble? Well here come trouble.

Haders a stud as is... agree disagree?

Do you expect him to struggle as a starter?

Do you expect him to go deep in games? Over 5?

How long are you going to watch an all star reliever struggle before you stop calling it growing pains?

Hey, we have Suter starting and Chacin and Miley was set to and Guerra tomorrow, Woodruff too. Don't you think if they thought Hader was an option he'd get a shot over that bunch?

Don't you think its odd that my wanting of Cobb was readily greeted with... the brain trust knows better... yet here you are calling those same people silly?

 

Strange people.

 

Didn’t call anyone silly. The decision to not try him as a starter is silly to me. Learn how to address people as I see you have changed to your post already. Then I’ll be happy to continue to discuss anything with you. Even when we don’t agree. Til then, bye.

[TJseven7]

They (brain trust) clearly made that silly choice on purpose. Miley Suter weren't blocking anything.

 

I said some people then changed it to strange people to come off a bit softer since you are looking to report me for asking you to actually defend your stance. How dare I ask a question! You also answered none of the questions.

[pacopete4]

They clearly made tgat silly choice on purpose. Miley Suter weren't blocking anything.

 

I said some people then changed it to strange people so come off a bit softer since you are looking to report me for asking you to actually defend your stance. You also answered none of the questions.

Yep and just like you didn’t agree with not signing Cobb, I don’t agree with this. It is okay. I can disagree and so can you. I just find it silly.

 

Not looking to report anyone. Just don’t need to be addressed that way is all. I’m not answering the questions because it leads us no where. You have a differing opinion, and that’s cool. I’ve got mine. Moving on...

[coolhandluke121]

Quote from Paul253:

 

"I like Yelich. I do. But if we were willing to give up so many of our top prospects it should have been for pitching."

 

Absolutely 100% agree...

 

Not sure who was going to be available to us, but I am still surprised we sent all those farmhands away for an outfielder, the one position we seemed to be stocked at.

 

It's extremely rare that a player as young and talented and Yelich on a bargain deal is available, and it was an equally rare set of circumstances in Miami. I very much doubt there was a pitcher available worth anywhere near what Yelich is worth over the next 5 years, and I'm so glad they are thinking about the next 5 years just as much as they're thinking about the next 2. Gray and Quintana, for example, aren't nearly worth as much as Yelich to the Brewers. Neither is Archer. I'm fine with trading for pitching if a good opportunity comes along, but let the top teams who can justify it and the delusional win-now teams be the ones to over-pay for now.

[TJseven7]

Ok who are you burying because you want to try an allstar elsewhere.

 

Where's Chacin Suter?

Where's Burnes Peralta?

Where's anyone in the next wave who arrives in under 3 years?

How many years of all star are you willing to blow "trying" it.

 

Hader is an All Star? Missed that announcement I guess. Where's Chacon and Suter? Who cares. Where's Burnes and Peralta? They haven't proven themselves at the MLB level, so why would you want them to have a spot?

 

Hader sure looks like one in his first 54 innings.

 

Hader has proven the exact same as Burnes and Peralta at the mlb level as a starter. Why do I want them to have a shot? Burnes control, pitches play up, dominated, hasn't hit a bump in the road at all. Peralta its him or Hader in my eyes. Haders dominating in a big role. He's not stretched... Peralta got 1st shot.

[rickh150]

We don't need another quality starter? Our bullpen seems spent after 12 games. Simply unreal...

[trwi7]

Didn’t call anyone silly. The decision to not try him as a starter is silly to me. Learn how to address people as I see you have changed to your post already. Then I’ll be happy to continue to discuss anything with you. Even when we don’t agree. Til then, bye.

 

Remember earlier in the winter when I said I hated the way we've rebuilt. I didn't mention it then because I was too busy coming up with the other arguments but you bringing it up reminded me of it.

 

This is another downside of collecting all of these average players, trying to compete, getting a little lucky and having an unexpected good season. You have a guy like Hader, who would be much more valuable if he turned into a 200 inning (or even a 160 inning) 3-3.5 ERA type of starter. The problem with getting all of the Shaws and Andersons of the world is you're kind of on the fringes of contention and you go out and get reinforcements like Walker and Swarzak to improve your record even more. Then the expectations of the ownership and fan base start to pick up again and you've basically cornered yourself into "go for it" mode.

 

Now you have a guy like Hader, who should be tried as a starter with the bullpen being the fallback option if he fails but you can't really put him out there because there's a chance he's going to have several games where he goes 4 innings and walks 6 and gives up several runs and taxes your bullpen and he's too valuable to take out of your actual bullpen while you're trying to contend so you're never going to find out if he can be that poor man's Chris Sale.

 

It's great that Stearns can find the Shaws and the Andersons but to me he found them too early. Wait until you have an established core of young talent producing in the big leagues and then supplement that talent with guys like Shaw and Anderson. You may not get the actual Shaw or Anderson but there are always players out there that a club is down on or a mechanical tweak to a delivery somebody in your front office sees that can improve a pitcher.

 

I don't see any way Hader gets a shot at being a starter going along the path we've chosen. He's too valuable in the bullpen and they're not going to have the time to build his arm back up for 150 or more innings in a year. It's a shame, he should have gotten a shot to be a starter but I think that ship has already sailed.

[CrewFanBrewMan69]

Didn’t call anyone silly. The decision to not try him as a starter is silly to me. Learn how to address people as I see you have changed to your post already. Then I’ll be happy to continue to discuss anything with you. Even when we don’t agree. Til then, bye.

 

Remember earlier in the winter when I said I hated the way we've rebuilt. I didn't mention it then because I was too busy coming up with the other arguments but you bringing it up reminded me of it.

 

This is another downside of collecting all of these average players, trying to compete, getting a little lucky and having an unexpected good season. You have a guy like Hader, who would be much more valuable if he turned into a 200 inning (or even a 160 inning) 3-3.5 ERA type of starter. The problem with getting all of the Shaws and Andersons of the world is you're kind of on the fringes of contention and you go out and get reinforcements like Walker and Swarzak to improve your record even more. Then the expectations of the ownership and fan base start to pick up again and you've basically cornered yourself into "go for it" mode.

 

Now you have a guy like Hader, who should be tried as a starter with the bullpen being the fallback option if he fails but you can't really put him out there because there's a chance he's going to have several games where he goes 4 innings and walks 6 and gives up several runs and taxes your bullpen and he's too valuable to take out of your actual bullpen while you're trying to contend so you're never going to find out if he can be that poor man's Chris Sale.

 

It's great that Stearns can find the Shaws and the Andersons but to me he found them too early. Wait until you have an established core of young talent producing in the big leagues and then supplement that talent with guys like Shaw and Anderson. You may not get the actual Shaw or Anderson but there are always players out there that a club is down on or a mechanical tweak to a delivery somebody in your front office sees that can improve a pitcher.

 

I don't see any way Hader gets a shot at being a starter going along the path we've chosen. He's too valuable in the bullpen and they're not going to have the time to build his arm back up for 150 or more innings in a year. It's a shame, he should have gotten a shot to be a starter but I think that ship has already sailed.

Agree entirely, last years unexpected jump may have hurt us more than helped. Never truly bottomed out and added those top 10 picks or able to sell guys at the deadline, didn't have the ability to let a guy like Hader try and be a starter because the goal was to win and now we have chosen to go for it with only one real star player in Yelich and potentially holding back value on Hader. I do wonder if we're only something like 5 games under .500 around the deadline and say 7ish games back of a WC that Sterns will do a mini sell off to try and make up for never truly bottoming out to get the high picks.

[shanedog19]

I agree 100% with giving Hader a chance to start. What if he's the next Chris Sale? How do we know if he is or isn't until given the shot? His whole trajectory in the minors was to be a SP, why change course now? I hate the way Stearns and co. have handled things with him. Meanwhile our starters can't get through five innings and our bullpen is already overworked two weeks into the season.

[JosephC]

I was pretty unhappy that the roster shuffle cost Woodruff the start today but have to hand it to Stearns/Counsell, Junior was great and I can't argue with the results. Hopefully we will get plenty more good starts from him this season.

[brewmann04]

The starters need to go longer here to give the bullpen the break its needs

[JohnBriggs12]

Quote from Paul253:

 

"I like Yelich. I do. But if we were willing to give up so many of our top prospects it should have been for pitching."

 

Absolutely 100% agree...

 

Not sure who was going to be available to us, but I am still surprised we sent all those farmhands away for an outfielder, the one position we seemed to be stocked at.

 

Brinson's hitting .140 and slugging .140. Isan Diaz is hitting .067 in AAA. Harrison is hitting .143 in AA. Yamamoto hasn't appeared in a game (hurt?). Early returns are the Brewers stole Yelich.

[Never Outhustled]

The starters need to go longer here to give the bullpen the break its needs

 

The offense needs to score some runs so we're not constantly playing extra inning games.

[Outlander]

Brinson's hitting .140 and slugging .140. Isan Diaz is hitting .067 in AAA. Harrison is hitting .143 in AA. Yamamoto hasn't appeared in a game (hurt?). Early returns are the Brewers stole Yelich.

And Mitch Haniger was demoted to A ball the year after Arizona acquired him from the Brewers so one week of minor league play doesn't mean much.

 

In regards to the starting rotation I hope they give Guerra another shot as they need somebody else to solidify the rotation.

[Mr Southpaw]

I was pretty unhappy that the roster shuffle cost Woodruff the start today but have to hand it to Stearns/Counsell, Junior was great and I can't argue with the results. Hopefully we will get plenty more good starts from him this season.

 

Junior needs to get a month of starts to prove that he isn't the pitcher he was two years ago. Ride that horse until he stops running!

[adambr2]

Honest question --

 

What would stop the Brewers from 'floating' an extra roster spot the entire season by rotating Guerra and Woodruff between AAA and MLB, sending them back down after a start, and calling up the other when a 5th spot is needed, since they would always meet the 10 day down requirement by then.

 

I don't see anything within the rules that would stop them, and by my estimate they could float an extra roster spot the entire season except on the days that they actually need a 5th starter.

 

Also, since each one would only be spending about 20ish days on the active MLB roster in the season, could they negotiate to just pay them both their regular MLB salary anyway (since that's going to be a relatively small amount anyway compared to the overall payroll).

 

I'm just honestly curious as to whether this would be legal.

[pacopete4]

Honest question --

 

What would stop the Brewers from 'floating' an extra roster spot the entire season by rotating Guerra and Woodruff between AAA and MLB, sending them back down after a start, and calling up the other when a 5th spot is needed, since they would always meet the 10 day down requirement by then.

 

I don't see anything within the rules that would stop them, and by my estimate they could float an extra roster spot the entire season except on the days that they actually need a 5th starter.

 

Also, since each one would only be spending about 20ish days on the active MLB roster in the season, could they negotiate to just pay them both their regular MLB salary anyway (since that's going to be a relatively small amount anyway compared to the overall payroll).

 

I'm just honestly curious as to whether this would be legal.

 

I guess what would stop them? If they are doing it inside of the rules they have, then it is fair game.

[istanbultaye]

It would take 3 pitchers rotating through the spot to truly be able to get an advantage of being able to use the spot for an extra reliever/bench bat on the non-start dates, due to the 10 day minimum after being sent down. But, certainly if they have a blow up start and the pen gets overworked, whoever is in that 5th spot probably gets sent down and a fresh BP arm comes up a few days to help cover until the next time the 5th starter is needed, and they swap to whoever isn't on cooldown.