2018 Starting Rotation

[pacopete4]

Josh Hader should focus on efficiently getting MLB hitters out. He can’t even do that seeing them once let alone a third time. Given he typically gets the meat of an order, but even then he throw way too many pitches even when “lights out”.

You are waaaaaay to hard on him. It's like you almost don't want to believe he's a good pitcher.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

It'll really stink if we get impatient, trade away arms, and they become successful elsewhere. It will really, really.. suck.

 

You aren't wrong at all. The team would have to give up high value prospects to get a younger controllable starter in return, no doubt. I'm sure, though, that the team has certain values attached to all their high-level prospects, and some will be easier to get than others. If they trade those high-value guys, the return should be expected to be significant ... I guess like the pitcher version of Yelich. Guys like Stroman and Fullmer fall into that category. Archer too, I guess, to a lesser degree.

 

A lot depends on where they are at standings-wise as well. If they are in striking distance once the calendar turns to July, and the rotation is still having issues, I have no doubt that they will make a move for a big name. Of course, guys like Burnes, Peralta and Houser could theoretically be up in the rotation by then, along with Nelson back, so the point may be moot.

[MrTPlush]

Josh Hader should focus on efficiently getting MLB hitters out. He can’t even do that seeing them once let alone a third time. Given he typically gets the meat of an order, but even then he throw way too many pitches even when “lights out”.

You are waaaaaay to hard on him. It's like you almost don't want to believe he's a good pitcher.

 

No, just a bit realistic compared to others. People are pleading for him to get a chance and dream he is a future ace. That despite showing little to believe he can be highly successful as a starter.

[TJseven7]

It'll really stink if we get impatient, trade away arms, and they become successful elsewhere. It will really, really.. suck.

 

You aren't wrong at all. The team would have to give up high value prospects to get a younger controllable starter in return, no doubt. I'm sure, though, that the team has certain values attached to all their high-level prospects, and some will be easier to get than others. If they trade those high-value guys, the return should be expected to be significant ... I guess like the pitcher version of Yelich. Guys like Stroman and Fullmer fall into that category. Archer too, I guess, to a lesser degree.

 

A lot depends on where they are at standings-wise as well. If they are in striking distance once the calendar turns to July, and the rotation is still having issues, I have no doubt that they will make a move for a big name. Of course, guys like Burnes, Peralta and Houser could theoretically be up in the rotation by then, along with Nelson back, so the point may be moot.

 

I sure hope Burnes Peralta aren't dealt. I could stomach Woody Ortiz because I think their assent will take longer to fine tune but Burnes Peralta seem ready to contribute now atleast in some fashion.

[pacopete4]

It'll really stink if we get impatient, trade away arms, and they become successful elsewhere. It will really, really.. suck.

 

You aren't wrong at all. The team would have to give up high value prospects to get a younger controllable starter in return, no doubt. I'm sure, though, that the team has certain values attached to all their high-level prospects, and some will be easier to get than others. If they trade those high-value guys, the return should be expected to be significant ... I guess like the pitcher version of Yelich. Guys like Stroman and Fullmer fall into that category. Archer too, I guess, to a lesser degree.

 

A lot depends on where they are at standings-wise as well. If they are in striking distance once the calendar turns to July, and the rotation is still having issues, I have no doubt that they will make a move for a big name. Of course, guys like Burnes, Peralta and Houser could theoretically be up in the rotation by then, along with Nelson back, so the point may be moot.

 

I sure hope Burnes Peralta aren't dealt. I could stomach Woody Ortiz because I think their assent will take longer to fine tune but Burnes Peralta seem ready to contribute now atleast in some fashion.

Yep, we've brought them along to AAA and I don't want to see them dealt now. I want to see them in Brewers uniforms.

[pacopete4]

Josh Hader should focus on efficiently getting MLB hitters out. He can’t even do that seeing them once let alone a third time. Given he typically gets the meat of an order, but even then he throw way too many pitches even when “lights out”.

You are waaaaaay to hard on him. It's like you almost don't want to believe he's a good pitcher.

 

No, just a bit realistic compared to others. People are pleading for him to get a chance and dream he is a future ace. That despite showing little to believe he can be highly successful as a starter.

 

Keyword in your post being future. He COULD be a future ace that needs time to develop as a starting pitcher. Becoming an ace usually doesn't happen overnight. The success he's shown so far and the dominance he's brought to the mound has a lot of people wondering if he can begin doing that over five innings and then develop that even further. It's not out of this world thinking, at all.

[FVBrewerFan]

Josh Hader should focus on efficiently getting MLB hitters out. He can’t even do that seeing them once let alone a third time. Given he typically gets the meat of an order, but even then he throw way too many pitches even when “lights out”.

You are waaaaaay to hard on him. It's like you almost don't want to believe he's a good pitcher.

 

No, just a bit realistic compared to others. People are pleading for him to get a chance and dream he is a future ace. That despite showing little to believe he can be highly successful as a starter.

 

He was more successful as a starting pitcher in the minors than any of the other names being thrown around. Does that mean he is a lock to be a great starting pitcher? No. Neither are Burnes, Peralta, or anyone else. But it just isn't true to say Hader has shown little to believe he can. In fact, he is one step beyond the others in that he has also proven he can get MLB hitters out.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Yep, we've brought them along to AAA and I don't want to see them dealt now. I want to see them in Brewers uniforms.

 

I'd love to see them become studs as well, but given the economics of Major League Baseball, the only ways the team is going to be able to acquire a sure-fire top young controllable starter is either trading for one, or developing one themselves. Acquiring an established pitcher would likely have a better chance of success than banking on a minor leaguer ascending to that level. My hope is that we start seeing great results out of our lower-level pitchers so that we wouldn't be forced into trading pitchers who are close to ML-ready. But that's the situation the team is in right now, though. Make no mistake, I love the potential of Burnes and Peralta being eventual contributors, but I don't think they profile as TOR guys quite yet. They may get there, but are by no means sure things. If either are being asked for as the main piece for a guy like Stroman or Fulmer, I would hope Stearns would be interested.

[TJseven7]

"He COULD be a future ace that needs time to develop as a starting pitcher."

 

Yeah but where is all this going to happen? Anderson Davies are starting thats done. You have Chacin and I doubt you hook him soon. Woodruff Burnes Peralta already makes 6. Nelson 7.

 

I could see Anderson Davies Chacin Burnes Peralta/Woodruff by June. Nelson bumps 1. Suter has no spot but long. Houser ditto. Throw Hader into that mix too? How?

 

Guys a weapon as is. What could be is a nice thought but theres a list of what could bes piling up here. That's a great problem, but how you play them all is a problem.

 

If we wanted Hader in the starting rotation I think they would have tried that before signing Chacin or handing the ball to Suter.

[coolhandluke121]

 

Are you two the same poster?

 

No. I can't imagine ever caring about what happens here so much that I'd deem it worth the trouble to make another profile.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

"He COULD be a future ace that needs time to develop as a starting pitcher."

 

Yeah but where is all this going to happen? Anderson Davies are starting thats done. You have Chacin and I doubt you hook him soon. Woodruff Burnes Peralta already makes 6. Nelson 7.

 

I could see Anderson Davies Chacin Burnes Peralta/Woodruff by June. Nelson bumps 1. Suter has no spot but long. Houser ditto. Throw Hader into that mix too? How?

 

Guys a weapon as is. What could be is a nice thought but theres a list of what could bes piling up here. That's a great problem, but how you play them all is a problem.

 

If we wanted Hader in the starting rotation I think they would have tried that before signing Chacin or handing the ball to Suter.

 

That logic indicates all those guys stay healthy all year. Given this team's recent history, that's very doubtful to happen.

 

I, too, am on the "Hader should be transitioned into a starter" bandwagon, but I don't think he makes the switch until Spring Training 2019. That would be closer to the Chris Sale timeline (i.e. a partial season as a reliever, followed by a full season as a reliever, then the transition).

[TJH123]

Josh Hader should focus on efficiently getting MLB hitters out. He can’t even do that seeing them once let alone a third time. Given he typically gets the meat of an order, but even then he throw way too many pitches even when “lights out”.

You are waaaaaay to hard on him. It's like you almost don't want to believe he's a good pitcher.

 

No, just a bit realistic compared to others. People are pleading for him to get a chance and dream he is a future ace. That despite showing little to believe he can be highly successful as a starter.

 

What is your criteria for him to show he’s be a successful starter?

[TJseven7]

Yeah as for injuries... makes zero sense in season and we agree there.

 

My concern... how long do you use him as a starter like McCullers or Velasquez before you go... oops back to being a 100 inning 2 era pen piece. Velasquez is filthy... can't get under 5 era. I bet he'd be a monster pen piece.

 

Mccullers is a 4.7 war in 3 years... was an all star

Velasquez is a 2.7 war in 3 years.

Haders 2.1 war in 54 innings for gods sake. On his way to beating their war in less than half the time.

 

These guys aren't chumps either.

 

2019 throw out Chacin and Suter.

Nelson Anderson Davies Burnes.... question time

Hader Peralta Woodruff

Ignoring Ponce Ortiz Brown Kodi Jankins

 

Who can be Hader as he is now? Peralta maybe. Who can rival Hader in the rotation... many more options most likely. If we package Woodruff Ortiz for another Davies level guy... the discussion is over. Hader and Peralta are in the pen and thats lovely.

 

Knebel Albers Hader Williams Barnes Jennings Peralta... jeffress houser lopez suter is filthy. That's an opening day playoff pen.

[coolhandluke121]

I'm not sure if WAR does enough to account for the leverage you get from having great relievers to get you out of horrible jams. It just compares relievers to other relievers based on their stats, but do analytics really have a solid grasp of the different ways in which starters and relievers are important compared to each other? Because that's the question here - comparing starters to relievers, not starters to other starters and relievers to other relievers, as WAR does.

[FVBrewerFan]

Who can be Hader as he is now?

 

Knebel Albers Williams Jeffress Jennings Peralta Houser Lopez Suter Griep and others. Who can give you 5 great innings to start a game? A lot fewer than that.

 

I think all of us who want to see Hader start have admitted we don't know for certain he would be a great starting pitcher, or how long it would take. But I dismiss the notion he can't be replaced in the BP, they have a ton of options there with more on the way.

 

There shouldn't be any doubt Hader is more valuable being used in 150 innings as a starter vs 80-90 innings as a reliever. Putting up zeros is just as valuable in the 1st as the 8th. Very simply, you want your best players on the field as much as possible.

 

Is there a risk it doesn't work? Of course. But after 40 years of not seeing the WS, I would be willing to take some chances. Worst case, he goes back to the BP.

[TJseven7]

"Knebel Albers Williams Jeffress Jennings Peralta Houser Lopez Suter Griep and others"

 

Complete bull. There aren't many Andrew Millers out there and Haders absolutely trending that way. Poor mans... could easily be dropped the moment he steps into the post season. Miller sucked as a starter too.

 

"Who can give you 5 great innings to start a game?"

 

Is Hader even on that list? Velasquez was supposed to be but so far not close. If you wanted to drop from 5 innings to 2 innings and change to 3 innings I'm listening. We've seen him 2nd time through for 2 batters total? Answer is 10... and I won't use 10 pa to prove anything but the numbers do spike.

[FVBrewerFan]

"Knebel Albers Williams Jeffress Jennings Peralta Houser Lopez Suter Griep and others"

 

Complete bull. There aren't many Andrew Millers out there and Haders absolutely trending that way. Poor mans... could easily be dropped the moment he steps into the post season. Miller sucked as a starter too.

 

"Who can give you 5 great innings to start a game?"

 

Is Hader even on that list? Velasquez was supposed to be but so far not close. If you wanted to drop from 5 innings to 2 innings and change to 3 innings I'm listening. We've seen him 2nd time through for 2 batters total?

 

Hader did that in the minors for years at an extremely high level. Now suddenly it's impossible for him to pitch 5 innings?

[TJseven7]

"Knebel Albers Williams Jeffress Jennings Peralta Houser Lopez Suter Griep and others"

 

Complete bull. There aren't many Andrew Millers out there and Haders absolutely trending that way. Poor mans... could easily be dropped the moment he steps into the post season. Miller sucked as a starter too.

 

"Who can give you 5 great innings to start a game?"

 

Is Hader even on that list? Velasquez was supposed to be but so far not close. If you wanted to drop from 5 innings to 2 innings and change to 3 innings I'm listening. We've seen him 2nd time through for 2 batters total?

 

Hader did that in the minors for years at an extremely high level. Now suddenly it's impossible for him to pitch 5 innings?

 

No. But assuming it will go WELL at the mlb level is quite a leap of faith.

[pacopete4]

Huh? So because it might not go well we shouldn’t do it? I guess no minor leaguer, ever, should ever get a chance to prove themselves. Wait, what?...

[FVBrewerFan]

Huh? So because it might not go well we shouldn’t do it? I guess no minor leaguer, ever, should ever get a chance to prove themselves. Wait, what?...

 

 

 

[AKCheesehead]

Brewers just announced Guerra's been called up to start tomorrow.

[Tbadder]

I’d just like to have Hader for two high leverage innings twice in five games than one start in five games.

[TJseven7]

Huh? So because it might not go well we shouldn’t do it? I guess no minor leaguer, ever, should ever get a chance to prove themselves. Wait, what?...

 

You know how I can tell your grumpy and looking for a fight ----^

 

You know quite well there is a difference between... "lets try our all star reliever as a starter, despite the fact that he's only gone 5 ip in the minors, despite his elite strike out stuff, due to control issues... and never giving a guy a shot.

 

You have an all star... "but we could have more!!!" Or we could waste 2 years of having an all star non closing reliever, something that's very very rare, so we can try for more. It's not even like we are short on options in the near future. He gets a shot... cross off woodruff and Peraltas shot in the next 2-3 years cuz that's all but done.

 

It's like playing Yelich in CF... you got a GG LF... but more!!! Name relievers like him not named Miller. Miller's a god. Haders streaking towards that territory. Hit a 1 in 100,000 want a 1 in a billion. Great way to screw up a great hit.

[TJH123]

Huh? So because it might not go well we shouldn’t do it? I guess no minor leaguer, ever, should ever get a chance to prove themselves. Wait, what?...

 

You know how I can tell your grumpy and looking for a fight ----^

 

You know quite well there is a difference between... "lets try our all star reliever as a starter, despite the fact that he's only gone 5 ip in the minors, despite his elite strike out stuff, due to control issues... and never giving a guy a shot.

 

You have an all star... "but we could have more!!!" Or we could waste 2 years of having an all star non closing reliever, something that's very very rare, so we can try for more. It's not even like we are short on options in the near future. He gets a shot... cross off woodruff and Peraltas shot in the next 2-3 years cuz that's all but done.

 

It's like playing Yelich in CF... you got a GG LF... but more!!! Name relievers like him not named Miller. Miller's a god. Haders streaking towards that territory. Hit a 1 in 100,000 want a 1 in a billion. Great way to screw up a great hit.

 

Miller is only a lights out reliever because 2 teams tried him as a starter and he failed badly. If he had been a successful starter he would not be in the bullpen right now. A lights out starter is much more valuable than a lights out reliever, so it’s worth it to see if Hader can be a major league starter.

[pacopete4]

Huh? So because it might not go well we shouldn’t do it? I guess no minor leaguer, ever, should ever get a chance to prove themselves. Wait, what?...

 

You know how I can tell your grumpy and looking for a fight ----^

 

You know quite well there is a difference between... "lets try our all star reliever as a starter, despite the fact that he's only gone 5 ip in the minors, despite his elite strike out stuff, due to control issues... and never giving a guy a shot.

 

You have an all star... "but we could have more!!!" Or we could waste 2 years of having an all star non closing reliever, something that's very very rare, so we can try for more. It's not even like we are short on options in the near future. He gets a shot... cross off woodruff and Peraltas shot in the next 2-3 years cuz that's all but done.

 

It's like playing Yelich in CF... you got a GG LF... but more!!! Name relievers like him not named Miller. Miller's a god. Haders streaking towards that territory. Hit a 1 in 100,000 want a 1 in a billion. Great way to screw up a great hit.

I just think it’s silly not to try him there. Trying to justify it is silly to me. And Yelich has been tried in CF because he’d be even more valuable if he was great there. Not trying it is silly. Moving on...