2018 Starting Rotation

[TJseven7]

Wednesday would be Freddy Peralta's regular start day, and he's already on the 40...just saying.

They wouldn’t dare, would they? I’d love it.

 

Me too. But I'm betting they play it "safe" and roll with Junior.

 

Me 3. Can we circumvent 3 guys service days by rotating woodruff peralta burnes in as the 5th starter. Call them up, start, send them down. If we can drag that out til July thats a new fun way to cover 5 and not start clocks. All 3 have options to burn anyway and shouldn't need them shortly.

 

Would allow us to get some mlb looks before we lock in on our 5.

 

Between Phillips Williams Houser and those 3 we could be very mobile. 4 starters 24 man roster swiss army the 25th spot.

[FVBrewerFan]

In regards to the 2 pitches, he does seem to be getting a little more comfortable with his changeup in the early going this year, not that he's using it much. Arguably the best home grown starting pitcher since the turn of the millenia was Ben Sheets, and he was pretty much a 2 pitch pitcher. That said, I think that they should cycle through other options before trying Hader, this year at least for sure. Why mess with something that is working for the guy, and where he is contributing greatly to the most successful group on the team?

 

Same reason you mess with anything, to make the team better. The bullpen is extremely deep now, and even deeper when Suter goes back there. Then there's still Miley, Ramirez, and others waiting in the wings. There's lots of options there to cover Hader's innings with similar results. There are not a lot of options to start and give you 5 good innings.

 

Hader's job as a reliever is to throw gas and strike people out. As a starter, he would need to modify his game a bit. We don't know if he could be an effective or even dominant starter, and how long it would take. The way I look at it, sooner we find out, the better.

[TJseven7]

Better question

 

Rank who you think profiles best as a starter between:

Burnes Hader Peralta Woodruff

 

If Hader isn't in your top 2... not basing on talent... but to the question does he profile as a starter. Then you don't move him at all.

 

Personally I'm on the fence between Hader and Peralta as a starter. Burnes is 1. He's a starter. Woodruff makes me think Nelson all over again but then that's a long wait. You choose Hader or Peralta to be the 5th. The others in the pen. I like Hader where he is. He's not being babied as much this year. On pace for 90 innings. Sure 150-160s better but 90-95 innings around 2 era is pretty filthy.

[paul253]

11 games in and we’re already talking about he possibility of Hader, Burnes or Peralta making a start. That’s just sad. Offseason was an absolute failure in terms of putting together a halfway decent rotation.

[TJseven7]

11 games in and we’re already talking about he possibility of Hader, Burnes or Peralta making a start. That’s just sad. Offseason was an absolute failure in terms of putting together a halfway decent rotation.

 

If you think that was our goal. Servicable stuff was what were were after. A bridge. No bridge level player is going to push us off the hopes we have pinned to Burnes Peralta Hader or even Woodruff. But ones dominating in the pen and the other 3 are avoiding clocks.

[pacopete4]

11 games in and we’re already talking about he possibility of Hader, Burnes or Peralta making a start. That’s just sad. Offseason was an absolute failure in terms of putting together a halfway decent rotation.

Or the offseason set us up to have those guys join our rotation. I want those guys in there. I don't want Cobb, Arrieta, etc... I want young-controllable arms anchoring out our rotation and we have some serious arms in the mix to do that. I view it as a success that we didn't buy into those guys as rotation fixes. We are in a better place because of it.

[TJseven7]

11 games in and we’re already talking about he possibility of Hader, Burnes or Peralta making a start. That’s just sad. Offseason was an absolute failure in terms of putting together a halfway decent rotation.

Or the offseason set us up to have those guys join our rotation. I want those guys in there. I don't want Cobb, Arrieta, etc... I want young-controllable arms anchoring out our rotation and we have some serious arms in the mix to do that. I view it as a success that we didn't buy into those guys as rotation fixes. We are in a better place because of it.

 

Still wanted Cobb but I was planning to sell off Davies the 2019 or 2020 offseason. Otherwise what you said.

 

I'm still curious as to what Woodruff Ortiz Santana Grisham or Ray could net.

[FVBrewerFan]

Better question

 

Rank who you think profiles best as a starter between:

Burnes Hader Peralta Woodruff

 

 

Why pick and choose? If all four were really good starters, would it be a problem to have 4/5 of your rotation set for 5-6 years?

[paul253]

If you think that was our goal. Servicable stuff was what were were after

 

I don’t know. You spend big time money and Cain and big time prospects on Yelich. If our goal was to have a “serviceable” rotation while simultaneously using all our resources to strengthen a strength then I don’t think Stearns is as smart as we thought.

 

For what it’s worth I don’t think he intended to have a rotation like this. I maintain that he planned all along to trade Santana and found the market for him wasn’t nearly as strong as he thought it would be so he tried to make lemonade with all those lemons.

 

Or the offseason set us up to have those guys join our rotation.

 

So then why not just have them join the rotation then? A half a season is enough to have them go from not ready to ready? I don’t think it is. I don’t think Burnes, Peralta or Ortiz was ever expected to make a significant impact in the rotation this year. That’s why they signed Miley and Gallardo. That was your depth. Not Burnes or Peralta.

 

I want young-controllable arms anchoring out our rotation and we have some serious arms in the mix to do that

 

As do I. I just don’t buy the argument that signing Cobb or Arrietta would somehow prevent Burnes Woodruff or Peralta from having a opportunity to make the rotation.

 

.

[pacopete4]

 

Or the offseason set us up to have those guys join our rotation.

 

So then why not just have them join the rotation then? A half a season is enough to have them go from not ready to ready? I don’t think it is. I don’t think Burnes, Peralta or Ortiz was ever expected to make a significant impact in the rotation this year. That’s why they signed Miley and Gallardo. That was your depth. Not Burnes or Peralta.

 

I want young-controllable arms anchoring out our rotation and we have some serious arms in the mix to do that

 

As do I. I just don’t buy the argument that signing Cobb or Arrietta would somehow prevent Burnes Woodruff or Peralta from having a opportunity to make the rotation.

 

You don't just have them join your rotation because of service clocks, needing experience, etc... Stearns has already mentioned Burnes as a possible rotation guy for mid-season so I don't buy that he is not apart of our depth. Same thing with Peralta. IF he's lights out in AAA and we are in need of an arm at the major league level, you better believe he's coming at some point. It is a mixture of roster construction. Signing those other guys mentioned in your second part can keep those guys down. I don't want to see that. I want to see our young arms come through and have opportunities to make dents as Brewers. Not be blocked at AA/AAA because we had to have a fancy new expensive toy that wouldn't push this team to the next level anyway.

[coolhandluke121]

 

I don’t know. You spend big time money and Cain and big time prospects on Yelich. If our goal was to have a “serviceable” rotation while simultaneously using all our resources to strengthen a strength then I don’t think Stearns is as smart as we thought.

 

 

Yelich is not even at his likely peak yet. Cain is a 5-WAR player at a premium position coming off his healthiest and 2nd most productive season ever, and as a revenue sharing recipient the Brewers only had to give up a 3rd round pick to sign him. In no way do those two acquisitions require you to be a contender right now for justification. Those were the best options for upgrading the team this year. They jumped at a chance to get 5-WAR players without giving up much, as they should. As long as they continue to wait for the right opportunities and pass on traps like Arrieta and Lynn, it will work itself out. The goal is not to have a perfect on-paper roster on opening day and laminate it and hang it on a wall. They're doing nearly everything right.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

I think the idea of DS wanting to move Santana is right. For me, the question then becomes about whether not moving him makes Cain/Yelich a mistake. I don't think so.

 

This team seems to have a lot of faith in Davies, Anderson, and Nelson. If you think Chacin is capable, which I do, then you are looking at 4 or 5 young guys and hoping one pans out this year and one more by 2019 or 2020. That gives you a strong rotation for the next three seasons. Thinking of it that way, it really doesn't make sense to add Cobb or Lynn or even Jake A. That just commits way too much $ for a guy who is a big question mark. Maybe Nelson is weaker or Davies loses velo too, but there isn't as much sunk cost there if that happens.

 

I look at it like this: if you add a top starter, that is making this year and next the time to compete. It makes things riskier with a roster that is still really young. As is, Cain and Yelich are the kind of moves that make the team more competitive now and preserve roster talent. (Especially re: pitching) for 2020 and beyond.

 

Maybe it doesn't work out. But if you think highly of Anderson, Davies, and Nelson, then Chacin and no big FA pitching makes sense to me.

[TJseven7]

Better question

 

Rank who you think profiles best as a starter between:

Burnes Hader Peralta Woodruff

 

 

Why pick and choose? If all four were really good starters, would it be a problem to have 4/5 of your rotation set for 5-6 years?

 

7 man rotations are getting popular?

 

In all seriousness, there's a big difference between doing well at 4-5 and bumping Nelson Anderson Davies. Those 3 are vital until someone acclimates enough to push them out. That's rarely instant.

 

You keep Anderson trade Davies Nelson... start those 4 controlled arms fine. They all need to be 4.0 combined.

 

You already have Ortiz Ponce Brown Kodi and maybe Jankins behind them.

You'd add what you got in trade.

Behind that... kirby webb murphy lemons herrera etc.

 

I like controlled arms but you can't promote them all if you churn them out the way we're going. Some need to go to a pen ace role.

 

Frankly I'm real excited to go Nelson Anderson Davies Burnes in the playoffs with Peralta Hader Knebel waiting for a good 4-5 innings so they can slam the door. Add Williams Barnes and that's real fun.

[TJseven7]

 

I don’t know. You spend big time money and Cain and big time prospects on Yelich. If our goal was to have a “serviceable” rotation while simultaneously using all our resources to strengthen a strength then I don’t think Stearns is as smart as we thought.

 

 

Yelich is not even at his likely peak yet. Cain is a 5-WAR player at a premium position coming off his healthiest and 2nd most productive season ever, and as a revenue sharing recipient the Brewers only had to give up a 3rd round pick to sign him. In no way do those two acquisitions require you to be a contender right now for justification. Those were the best options for upgrading the team this year. They jumped at a chance to get 5-WAR players without giving up much, as they should. As long as they continue to wait for the right opportunities and pass on traps like Arrieta and Lynn, it will work itself out. The goal is not to have a perfect on-paper roster on opening day and laminate it and hang it on a wall. They're doing nearly everything right.

 

We had no system answer for plus defense OF top of the order hitting. I believe we (stearns group) had zero faith in Brinson all along. I believe that was a value add not a target add. Mejia was a target. I don't expect Ortiz to be in their plans either. He's a chip.

 

We have Williams Houser Burnes Peralta Woodruff. These aren't Cravy Jungemann level guys. These dudes got tools. You can see a path to an end with the pitching staff. You can't see that with LF CF. Brinsons going to take awhile. Phillips isnt top of the order. Only dude we have in the system who is top of the order within 2 years is playing DH. Cain Yelich were absolutely vital. 3-5 we got those guys in bunches. 1-2 we were desert dry.

 

This teams going to click and open up full throttle in the next 2 years as its set up now. Take out yelich cain and thats not the case.

[coolhandluke121]

Phillips isnt top of the order. Only dude we have in the system who is top of the order within 2 years is playing DH. Cain Yelich were absolutely vital. 3-5 we got those guys in bunches. 1-2 we were desert dry.

 

This teams going to click and open up full throttle in the next 2 years as its set up now. Take out yelich cain and thats not the case.

 

Yep. Keep getting the best players at the best values and it will work itself out. It's reductionist thinking to say Cain and Yelich were a mistake if we didn't fix every single roster imbalance and build a contender in the season in which we acquired them. It will be fine as long as they keep pursuing really good investments and passing up bad ones.

[TJseven7]

Well without Cain Yelich we'd likely be 3-8 and in a hole. The only bat producing besides them is Aguilar. Our O numbers are way off last years pace and they've pulled the numbers up dramatically.

 

My season continues to be... watch the farm... hope the big league club stays a tick above 500.

[pacopete4]

 

Are you two the same poster?

[sveumrules]

The moves made (& not made) this offseason seemed to indicate to me that Stearns was hoping to move the team from being surprise contenders last season to legit contenders this season while maintaining flexibility into the future; whether in the form of midseason trade, help from the farm or a larger FA expenditure in a coming offseason.

 

I do not believe there was a realistic set of transactions that could have pushed us into to WS contenders grouping with LA, CHI & WAS this past offseason.

 

Speaking of, the Dodgers are 3-6. Has anyone checked Dodgerfan.net to make sure everyone is ok over there?

[TJseven7]

The moves made (& not made) this offseason seemed to indicate to me that Stearns was hoping to move the team from being surprise contenders last season to legit contenders this season while maintaining flexibility into the future; whether in the form of midseason trade, help from the farm or a larger FA expenditure in a coming offseason.

 

I do not believe there was a realistic set of transactions that could have pushed us into to WS contenders grouping with LA, CHI & WAS this past offseason.

 

Speaking of, the Dodgers are 3-6. Has anyone checked Dodgerfan.net to make sure everyone is ok over there?

 

Yeah our sky is falling vibe ignores that we are percentage points behind the 5-4 cubs. Up on the cards dodgers and nats.

 

Pirates Mets Braves... Diamondbacks finally a team we expected to be behind or contending with... is the only 1 we trail that should be a threat.

[CrewFanBrewMan69]

I don't like depending on pitching prospects as our hope to be contenders within the next 4 years, but it is what it is and I certainly get the strategy and being small market it's going to take luck and health with them anyways since we just can't spend but it's certainly risky. Go back 5-7 years and look at all the top 50 or so prospects that were pitchers and most fail to hit anything close to their ceilings if they even make the big leagues. Still would prefer to trade some for an established younger starter whenever the decision comes that it's time to push the chips in.

 

The Mets are the closest thing we've seen in a while of young pitching coming together and that happened only once for them in the last 4 years and it's been injuries and poor performance every other year. Just gotta hope the sequencing of them coming up falls our way that we at least get a 1 year window where they all stay healthy at the same time.

[TJH123]

In regards to the 2 pitches, he does seem to be getting a little more comfortable with his changeup in the early going this year, not that he's using it much. Arguably the best home grown starting pitcher since the turn of the millenia was Ben Sheets, and he was pretty much a 2 pitch pitcher. That said, I think that they should cycle through other options before trying Hader, this year at least for sure. Why mess with something that is working for the guy, and where he is contributing greatly to the most successful group on the team?

 

Same reason you mess with anything, to make the team better. The bullpen is extremely deep now, and even deeper when Suter goes back there. Then there's still Miley, Ramirez, and others waiting in the wings. There's lots of options there to cover Hader's innings with similar results. There are not a lot of options to start and give you 5 good innings.

 

Hader's job as a reliever is to throw gas and strike people out. As a starter, he would need to modify his game a bit. We don't know if he could be an effective or even dominant starter, and how long it would take. The way I look at it, sooner we find out, the better.

 

Look at Hader’s stats in the minors and you’ll see he was a dominant starter who frequently went deep into games before he reached Colorado Springs which is a pitcher’s nightmare (whose idea was that to make them our AAA?)). His changeup seems like a decently serviceable third pitch and he just needs to get more comfortable using it. The way I see it is, would you rather have Hader pitch 3-4 innings every 5 games as he is now or would you rather have him pitch ~6 innings every 5 games as a starter? Starters are more valuable than relievers and they could much more easily spend money on relievers to replace him than they could spending money on starters. There was probably many people who thought Chris Sale should remain a reliever, but then look what happened once they realized he should be a starter. Burnes and Peralta should be looked at as starters too.

[CrewFanBrewMan69]

In regards to the 2 pitches, he does seem to be getting a little more comfortable with his changeup in the early going this year, not that he's using it much. Arguably the best home grown starting pitcher since the turn of the millenia was Ben Sheets, and he was pretty much a 2 pitch pitcher. That said, I think that they should cycle through other options before trying Hader, this year at least for sure. Why mess with something that is working for the guy, and where he is contributing greatly to the most successful group on the team?

 

Same reason you mess with anything, to make the team better. The bullpen is extremely deep now, and even deeper when Suter goes back there. Then there's still Miley, Ramirez, and others waiting in the wings. There's lots of options there to cover Hader's innings with similar results. There are not a lot of options to start and give you 5 good innings.

 

Hader's job as a reliever is to throw gas and strike people out. As a starter, he would need to modify his game a bit. We don't know if he could be an effective or even dominant starter, and how long it would take. The way I look at it, sooner we find out, the better.

 

Look at Hader’s stats in the minors and you’ll see he was a dominant starter who frequently went deep into games before he reached Colorado Springs which is a pitcher’s nightmare (whose idea was that to make them our AAA?)). His changeup seems like a decently serviceable third pitch and he just needs to get more comfortable using it. The way I see it is, would you rather have Hader pitch 3-4 innings every 5 games as he is now or would you rather have him pitch ~6 innings every 5 games as a starter? Starters are more valuable than relievers and they could much more easily spend money on relievers to replace him than they could spending money on starters. There was probably many people who thought Chris Sale should remain a reliever, but then look what happened once they realized he should be a starter. Burnes and Peralta should be looked at as starters too.

Yup, just look last year there were only 3 relievers who had more than 3 WAR (Fangraphs). There were 7 starters who recorded over 3 WAR last year that had a 4 ERA or higher. He doesn't even need to be "that" good as a starter to be worth more WAR than the most elite relief pitchers.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I don't like depending on pitching prospects as our hope to be contenders within the next 4 years, but it is what it is and I certainly get the strategy and being small market it's going to take luck and health with them anyways since we just can't spend but it's certainly risky. Go back 5-7 years and look at all the top 50 or so prospects that were pitchers and most fail to hit anything close to their ceilings if they even make the big leagues. Still would prefer to trade some for an established younger starter whenever the decision comes that it's time to push the chips in.

 

The Mets are the closest thing we've seen in a while of young pitching coming together and that happened only once for them in the last 4 years and it's been injuries and poor performance every other year. Just gotta hope the sequencing of them coming up falls our way that we at least get a 1 year window where they all stay healthy at the same time.

 

My hope is that they look at maybe one of these starting prospects (two at the most) making it, and use the rest as currency. That's why the idea of using Burnes, Peralta, Houser or the younger guys as collateral for a trade doesn't bother me in the least. Looking at the team's history of developing pitchers, I'd much rather bank on dealing a group of prospects for an established guy, even if the perceived "upside" isn't as great.

[MrTPlush]

Josh Hader should focus on efficiently getting MLB hitters out. He can’t even do that seeing them once let alone a third time. Given he typically gets the meat of an order, but even then he throw way too many pitches even when “lights out”.

[pacopete4]

It'll really stink if we get impatient, trade away arms, and they become successful elsewhere. It will really, really.. suck.