Indians acquire Jay Bruce

[DuWayne Steurer]

If the guys on the Brewers are going to suddenly turn on a light switch because Stearns adds one or two mediocre players in either/both of Granderson and Kinsler, then they really, really, really, really need to address how they approach the way they play the game in the first place.

 

OVer his last 7 days Broxton is OPS-ing .950, so he's quite hot right now, so really we're talking about adding Kinsler. If we add Kinsler, EVERYONE is going to suddenly be like 'OK, WE'RE FINE NOW" and remember how to hit".

 

I'm absolutely certain that's not how baseball works. I'm certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that's not how professional baseball players think, or operate, or anything. I get "a little shakeup", but when you're averaging -1.5 runs per game for the last month, adding a .720 OPS 2nd baseman isn't " a little shakeup", and isn't suddenly going to turn everyone into the offensive juggernaut they were in the first half.

[bill hAll Star]

 

I think the main assumption (backup quarterback theory) here where we differ is that you are applying way too much certainty to modest upgrades getting the job done.

 

The idea of, "we had a real chance at a fleeting [for this franchise] playoff spot for the playoffs and it would've happened if we made these little moves" is A. ignoring that they possibly tried to make those moves and the teams returned with absurd offers and B. assumes that those moves unequivocally would have put them over the top.

 

I haven't assumed a damn thing. Now you're trying to put words in my mouth? We could've went out and got Gray and Quintana and missed the playoffs. Not sure when anything close to what you stated above was ever said. That wasn't my point at all. I've even said it's a chance at the right mixture or a kickstarter for the guys on the team. Whatever you want to call it BUT a gaurentee. Never, ever... EVER came close to saying that. Just said that trying something COULD be better than doing nothing at all. And with what I stated about about low payrol, still in the mix, yada yada yada... I don't see the harm in it. And like I also stated, it looks like the Brewers are already checking in on a possible move.

 

Well, it's possible that we'll have Phillips or Kinsler within a few days/hours, but harm can be done and that is why I would assume no move has been made to this point.

 

If those guys cleared waivers and required $0 and 0 prospects to trade for, I'll bet Attanasio would have made the deal. I think he'd even put some $ down for those guys. I think once you talk about picking up all of Kinsler's contract is where I don't blame Mark from saying "OK, this probably won't help us nearly enough for me to burn $15 million bucks on" and I'd be fine with that.

 

The fact that it hasn't happened yet means acquiring those guys is either:

 

A. Not possible due something like not getting them on waivers or Kinsler saying he'd reject trade to Milwaukee.

 

B. The asking price being 2 good prospects or covering all of Kinsler's contract + a good prospect.

[pacopete4]

If the guys on the Brewers are going to suddenly turn on a light switch because Stearns adds one or two mediocre players in either/both of Granderson and Kinsler, then they really, really, really, really need to address how they approach the way they play the game in the first place.

 

OVer his last 7 days Broxton is OPS-ing .950, so he's quite hot right now, so really we're talking about adding Kinsler. If we add Kinsler, EVERYONE is going to suddenly be like 'OK, WE'RE FINE NOW" and remember how to hit".

 

I'm absolutely certain that's not how baseball works. I'm certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that's not how professional baseball players think, or operate, or anything. I get "a little shakeup", but when you're averaging -1.5 runs per game for the last month, adding a .720 OPS 2nd baseman isn't " a little shakeup", and isn't suddenly going to turn everyone into the offensive juggernaut they were in the first half.

 

You're statement above assume that the current Brewer players aren't capable of a hot streak. Say you bring in a Kinsler and he goes on a tear. All of a sudden, pressures off a bit and another guy lights up. And another and another. You're telling me that you've never seen something like that in baseball? Or any other sport? It's not that Kinsler magically waves pixie dust or teaches anyone to hit and all of a sudden we are the 1927 Yankees. But it can spark a flame that other guys pick up. It really isn't unheard of.

[pacopete4]

 

I think the main assumption (backup quarterback theory) here where we differ is that you are applying way too much certainty to modest upgrades getting the job done.

 

The idea of, "we had a real chance at a fleeting [for this franchise] playoff spot for the playoffs and it would've happened if we made these little moves" is A. ignoring that they possibly tried to make those moves and the teams returned with absurd offers and B. assumes that those moves unequivocally would have put them over the top.

 

I haven't assumed a damn thing. Now you're trying to put words in my mouth? We could've went out and got Gray and Quintana and missed the playoffs. Not sure when anything close to what you stated above was ever said. That wasn't my point at all. I've even said it's a chance at the right mixture or a kickstarter for the guys on the team. Whatever you want to call it BUT a gaurentee. Never, ever... EVER came close to saying that. Just said that trying something COULD be better than doing nothing at all. And with what I stated about about low payrol, still in the mix, yada yada yada... I don't see the harm in it. And like I also stated, it looks like the Brewers are already checking in on a possible move.

 

Well, it's possible that we'll have Phillips or Kinsler within a few days/hours, but harm can be done and that is why I would assume no move has been made to this point.

 

If those guys cleared waivers and required $0 and 0 prospects to trade for, I'll bet Attanasio would have made the deal. I think he'd even put some $ down for those guys. I think once you talk about picking up all of Kinsler's contract is where I don't blame Mark from saying "OK, this probably won't help us nearly enough for me to burn $15 million bucks on" and I'd be fine with that.

 

The fact that it hasn't happened yet means acquiring those guys is either:

 

A. Not possible due something like not getting them on waivers or Kinsler saying he'd reject trade to Milwaukee.

 

B. The asking price being 2 good prospects or covering all of Kinsler's contract + a good prospect.

 

You're right, the teams could ask for a ridiculous price to pay do his devices or he doesn't want to come. But hopefully their at least trying. If the price is right, it's worth a crack at it. If it doesn't work out, it's just another disappointing Brewer collapse.

[bill hAll Star]

You're statement above assume that the current Brewer players aren't capable or f a hot streak. Say you bring in a Kinsler and he goes on a tear. All of a sudden, pressures off a bit and another guy lights up. And another and another. You're telling me that you've never seen something like that in baseball? Or any other sport? It's not that Kinsler magically waves pixie dust and all of a sudden we are the 1927 Yankees. But it can spark a flame that other guys pick up. It really isn't unheard of.

 

There's an extremely high chance that Santana or Arcia or Thames get on fire without the presence of Ian Kinsler. There's also a high chance that Ian Kinsler comes in and is "just OK" for the rest of the season.

 

I'd say Villar's head is pretty messed up but who's to say that Hernan Perez couldn't catch fire? That's pretty much just as likely as Ian Kinsler at this point of Kinsler's career.

[bill hAll Star]

You're right, the teams could ask for a ridiculous price to pay do his devices or he doesn't want to come. But hopefully their at least trying. If the price is right, it's worth a crack at it. If it doesn't work out, it's just another disappointing Brewer collapse.

 

I think they're trying. I agree that if Mark wants to spend a few million bucks to bring Kinsler in and probably keep him around with not much in the 2018 pipeline (Dubon is OK, but I'm not expecting stardom) and throw zero prospects at it...completely fine by me at this point.

 

If it starts to cost prospects I'm not a fan. If Mark doesn't think it's worth the investment I actually understand in this case. I think they're going to try to make a small move like this, though.

[monty57]

If the guys on the Brewers are going to suddenly turn on a light switch because Stearns adds one or two mediocre players in either/both of Granderson and Kinsler, then they really, really, really, really need to address how they approach the way they play the game in the first place.

 

OVer his last 7 days Broxton is OPS-ing .950, so he's quite hot right now, so really we're talking about adding Kinsler. If we add Kinsler, EVERYONE is going to suddenly be like 'OK, WE'RE FINE NOW" and remember how to hit".

 

I'm absolutely certain that's not how baseball works. I'm certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that's not how professional baseball players think, or operate, or anything. I get "a little shakeup", but when you're averaging -1.5 runs per game for the last month, adding a .720 OPS 2nd baseman isn't " a little shakeup", and isn't suddenly going to turn everyone into the offensive juggernaut they were in the first half.

 

You're statement above assume that the current Brewer players aren't capable of a hot streak. Say you bring in a Kinsler and he goes on a tear. All of a sudden, pressures off a bit and another guy lights up. And another and another. You're telling me that you've never seen something like that in baseball? Or any other sport? It's not that Kinsler magically waves pixie dust or teaches anyone to hit and all of a sudden we are the 1927 Yankees. But it can spark a flame that other guys pick up. It really isn't unheard of.

 

Isn't it just as likely that Broxton or Villar go on a tear, because Broxton has gone on a tear and it hasn't made a difference.

[pacopete4]

Again, there is no guarantee Kinsler does squat. I wish Villar would just take off and do what he did a year ago but I doubt he even gets the opportunity to do so. If I'm getting a choice between seeing Sogard get a good chunk of th starts, I'm going after Kinsler. If he plays the defense he does and at OPS's .775-.800+ the rest of the way ya never know what that could do.

[bill hAll Star]

Again, there is no guarantee Kinsler does squat. I wish Villar would just take off and do what he did a year ago but I doubt he even gets the opportunity to do so. If I'm getting a choice between seeing Sogard get a good chunk of th starts, I'm going after Kinsler. If he plays the defense he does and at OPS's .775-.800+ the rest of the way ya never know what that could do.

 

It appears that Villar is back in there today, but what if Hernan played 2B and put up a .750-.775 OPS and played great defense?

[pacopete4]

Again, there is no guarantee Kinsler does squat. I wish Villar would just take off and do what he did a year ago but I doubt he even gets the opportunity to do so. If I'm getting a choice between seeing Sogard get a good chunk of th starts, I'm going after Kinsler. If he plays the defense he does and at OPS's .775-.800+ the rest of the way ya never know what that could do.

 

It appears that Villar is back in there today, but what if Hernan played 2B and put up a .750-.775 OPS and played great defense?

 

He might. I can't see it because of his lack of plate discipline but he might. I don't think his defense is stellar either but maybe that's just me. Not a Perez fan but he could get hot. I'd take Kinsler still.

[jerichoholicninja]

Over 40 games or so just about any random MLB player can go on a tear. Who's more likely to though? The guy who's just about a guaranteed .750 OPS every year of his career (Kinsler), a guy who seems to have fluked his way into 1 great year with a terrible approach at the plate (Villar), a guy who's really done nothing with the bat and refuses to take a pitch (Perez), or a career fringe major leaguer (Sogard)?

[bill hAll Star]

Over 40 games or so just about any random MLB player can go on a tear. Who's more likely to though? The guy who's just about a guaranteed .730 OPS every year of his career (Kinsler), a guy who seems to have fluked his way into 1 great year with a terrible approach at the plate (Villar), a guy who's really done nothing with the bat and refuses to take a pitch (Perez), or a career fringe major leaguer (Sogard)?

 

Sure, it's Kinsler who we now know isn't an option and also is an expensive upgrade over Perez, who, while I do understand his OBP is bad has put up said .750 OPS the last few years with lots of steals.

 

If we were 6 games up on the Cubs with 2 months left I'd be all over Kinsler, Phillips, anyone...

 

Given where we are now just pray for a miracle with Villar and Perez. Heck, Phillips could come over and randomly hit like an MVP and it still may not be enough.

[Boomer5]

It's really only one of two things:

 

1. Stearns knows the MLB team is as bad as the analytics say so trading prospects is throwing assets away.

 

2. He did try but our prospects outside of Brinson aren't very good.

[brewerfan82]

It's really only one of two things:

 

1. Stearns knows the MLB team is as bad as the analytics say so trading prospects is throwing assets away.

 

2. He did try but our prospects outside of Brinson aren't very good.

3. Stearns also values prospects not named Brinson and thinks the asking price for players is too high even if Brinson isn't included.

[Boomer5]

It's really only one of two things:

 

1. Stearns knows the MLB team is as bad as the analytics say so trading prospects is throwing assets away.

 

2. He did try but our prospects outside of Brinson aren't very good.

3. Stearns also values prospects not named Brinson and thinks the asking price for players is too high even if Brinson isn't included.

 

Well he traded a guy hitting 359 for a guy who could only mange 2 innings before he was demoted; and he traded our 17th ranked prospect for a guy who will pitch about 20 innings or so on what is now a 4th place team then become a FA, so it does appear he is willing to over pay to get guys he wants.

 

Ultimately it appears he made the right call not trading for Gray as the team is in full free fall and nothing Gray could have done would have mattered at this point.

[MadThinker88]

Thanks to another site board member, I was able to get a deeper dive into the Jay Bruce numbers as he played in Cleveland during his career.

He is a beast at Jacobs/ Progressive during his career..

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=bruceja01&year=Career&t=b

 

I share that info here as similar links can be used for looking at Phillips/ Kinsler/ Sonny Gray/ etc.

 

I would not suggest that DStearns is an 'analytics only' guy but it is clear he will use & review that info more than the front office before him.

Perhaps there were some issues that as fans we are not currently aware of. Perhaps it drove him to pursue other players that have not yet been successful. Either way it is clear the DStearns has had an overall strategy & he has stuck to it.

[jerichoholicninja]

Thanks to another site board member, I was able to get a deeper dive into the Jay Bruce numbers as he played in Cleveland during his career.

He is a beast at Jacobs/ Progressive during his career..

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=bruceja01&year=Career&t=b

 

I share that info here as similar links can be used for looking at Phillips/ Kinsler/ Sonny Gray/ etc.

 

I would not suggest that DStearns is an 'analytics only' guy but it is clear he will use & review that info more than the front office before him.

Perhaps there were some issues that as fans we are not currently aware of. Perhaps it drove him to pursue other players that have not yet been successful. Either way it is clear the DStearns has had an overall strategy & he has stuck to it.

 

Stats a player has at a specific park are pretty pointless and have little meaning. I really doubt Stearns or any GM is making decisions based off of them.

[Thurston Fluff]

It's really only one of two things:

 

1. Stearns knows the MLB team is as bad as the analytics say so trading prospects is throwing assets away.

 

2. He did try but our prospects outside of Brinson aren't very good.

3. Stearns also values prospects not named Brinson and thinks the asking price for players is too high even if Brinson isn't included.

 

Well he traded a guy hitting 359 for a guy who could only mange 2 innings before he was demoted; and he traded our 17th ranked prospect for a guy who will pitch about 20 innings or so on what is now a 4th place team then become a FA, so it does appear he is willing to over pay to get guys he wants.

 

Ultimately it appears he made the right call not trading for Gray as the team is in full free fall and nothing Gray could have done would have mattered at this point.

 

What does the team's standing now have to do with trading for a guy back when the team was higher in the standings?

[MadThinker88]

Thanks to another site board member, I was able to get a deeper dive into the Jay Bruce numbers as he played in Cleveland during his career.

He is a beast at Jacobs/ Progressive during his career..

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=bruceja01&year=Career&t=b

 

I share that info here as similar links can be used for looking at Phillips/ Kinsler/ Sonny Gray/ etc.

 

I would not suggest that DStearns is an 'analytics only' guy but it is clear he will use & review that info more than the front office before him.

Perhaps there were some issues that as fans we are not currently aware of. Perhaps it drove him to pursue other players that have not yet been successful. Either way it is clear the DStearns has had an overall strategy & he has stuck to it.

 

Stats a player has at a specific park are pretty pointless and have little meaning. I really doubt Stearns or any GM is making decisions based off of them.

 

I guess we will agree to disagree. I believe DS will use any and all means to make a solid decision (including these numbers). Like the spaghetti sauce "it's in there".

 

However, I did not say DS made his decisions based on those numbers. Please note what I put in bold. DS will at least look at that info. I highly doubt his predecessor ever looked at that type of data.

[Thurston Fluff]

Thanks to another site board member, I was able to get a deeper dive into the Jay Bruce numbers as he played in Cleveland during his career.

He is a beast at Jacobs/ Progressive during his career..

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=bruceja01&year=Career&t=b

 

I share that info here as similar links can be used for looking at Phillips/ Kinsler/ Sonny Gray/ etc.

 

I would not suggest that DStearns is an 'analytics only' guy but it is clear he will use & review that info more than the front office before him.

Perhaps there were some issues that as fans we are not currently aware of. Perhaps it drove him to pursue other players that have not yet been successful. Either way it is clear the DStearns has had an overall strategy & he has stuck to it.

 

Stats a player has at a specific park are pretty pointless and have little meaning. I really doubt Stearns or any GM is making decisions based off of them.

 

I guess we will agree to disagree. I believe DS will use any and all means to make a solid decision (including these numbers). Like the spaghetti sauce "it's in there".

 

However, I did not say DS made his decisions based on those numbers. Please note what I put in bold. DS will at least look at that info. I highly doubt his predecessor ever looked at that type of data.

 

Doug Melvin was one of the GM's who used sabermetrics early on. Melvin, like Stearns and pretty much every GM today, use both scouting and advanced stats. An approach I agree with. To me it's more about where one uses stats or scouts, and to what degree, than if they use them at all.

[brewerfan82]

It's really only one of two things:

 

1. Stearns knows the MLB team is as bad as the analytics say so trading prospects is throwing assets away.

 

2. He did try but our prospects outside of Brinson aren't very good.

3. Stearns also values prospects not named Brinson and thinks the asking price for players is too high even if Brinson isn't included.

 

Well he traded a guy hitting 359 for a guy who could only mange 2 innings before he was demoted; and he traded our 17th ranked prospect for a guy who will pitch about 20 innings or so on what is now a 4th place team then become a FA, so it does appear he is willing to over pay to get guys he wants.

Not sure how either of those example proves he's willing to overpay to get guys he wants. As you stated in your own quote, neither guy was ranked in our top 16 prospects. He may just not have valued either of those guys highly to begin with and didn't see losing them as having an affect on the future of the team. If teams are asking for players in the top 10 or even top 5 for whoever he's targeting now he's likely to value them a bit more than either of those examples.

[Boomer5]

He gave up more than he got back in those two trades, therefore he over paid. It's just that we were desperate for bullpen help so he had no choice if he wanted the team to try and be competitive.

[Brewer Fever]

Big numbers as an opposing player in Miller Park is how we got saddled with Johnny Estrada

[Ennder]

He gave up more than he got back in those two trades, therefore he over paid. It's just that we were desperate for bullpen help so he had no choice if he wanted the team to try and be competitive.

 

Cordell and Cooper easily could have both been lost to the rule 5 draft at some point. Neither looked likely to be a part of the teams near future and might not be part of the far future. This statement really isn't a solid truth. It could be true but you can't really say it with any certainty.

[Ennder]

Who other than guys like Gray, Darvish and Quintana were even traded? It seemed like the deadline this year was either big names or secondary pieces. It didn't involve decent to good regulars unless I'm missing someone.

 

J.D Martinez is probably the biggest name you are missing.