Indians acquire Jay Bruce

[stoutdude04]

Man Briggs, do some reasearch before posting. Not a good look for ya.

 

Some people insist on making moves purely for the same of making moves. If we had the DH in the NL I would have been for adding Bruce, but like others have said he has no where to play here.

[Brewcrewin07]

I in no WAY intimated I wanted the brewers to acquire Jay Bruce when I started this thread. Everyone seems ot think that's what I implied. It's not...What I implied is DS is still sitting there doing nothing to try to improve the gaping holes this team has in CF and at 2B. You cannot tell me there haven't been guys put on waivers that he could have acquired for next to nothing at those two positions. August deals generally do not cost much in terms of talent to give up, so I don't see the harm in him acquiring some one.

[Ennder]

Keon Broxton is on pace for about 1.5 WAR over a full season. There is no gaping hole at CF. He is better than most CF that are available. Bringing in a 2B would be fine but I don't really see a huge point in it either. One guy isn't going to turn this roster into a playoff contender. They are better off just hoping one of the in house guys shows some reason to believe they will be useful next season.

[pacopete4]

Keon Broxton is on pace for about 1.5 WAR over a full season. There is no gaping hole at CF. He is better than most CF that are available. Bringing in a 2B would be fine but I don't really see a huge point in it either. One guy isn't going to turn this roster into a playoff contender. They are better off just hoping one of the in house guys shows some reason to believe they will be useful next season.

 

You just don't know the trickle down effect a player can have. One guy gets brought in and produces and all of a sudden others are producing again. You just don't know. That's why this is frustrating. To do nothing is basically throwing in the towel.

[jerichoholicninja]

I'm not understanding this whole "well this one position sucks but there's no point in upgrading because it's not going to make everyone else better/you don't need to be good at every position."

[StearnsFTW]

For the next 6 weeks I'd take my chances with Bruce over either Braun or Santana. What have either Braun or Santana done the last few weeks?

 

Without regard to the stats that have already been pointed out..........

 

If you'd want Jay Bruce in the lineup over Ryan Braun I can't help you. It's just such a crazy notion.

[brewerfan82]

I in no WAY intimated I wanted the brewers to acquire Jay Bruce when I started this thread. Everyone seems ot think that's what I implied. It's not...What I implied is DS is still sitting there doing nothing to try to improve the gaping holes this team has in CF and at 2B. You cannot tell me there haven't been guys put on waivers that he could have acquired for next to nothing at those two positions. August deals generally do not cost much in terms of talent to give up, so I don't see the harm in him acquiring some one.

However, no other teams have grabbed the guys at CF or 2B that have been talked about either. It takes two teams to make a trade and you have no idea if the other GMs are being reasonable with their requests at this point. They have 20 more days to trade their guys, so there's a decent chance they're demanding more than they're worth at this point still. Which they should, there's no reason for them to take a low ball (or even reasonable) offer as it doesn't make a difference to them if they're traded today or August 31st, but they know it matters to contenders and they might get something extra by making a team overpay to fill a hole for a couple extra weeks.

[logan82]

For the next 6 weeks I'd take my chances with Bruce over either Braun or Santana. What have either Braun or Santana done the last few weeks?

 

Without regard to the stats that have already been pointed out..........

 

If you'd want Jay Bruce in the lineup over Ryan Braun I can't help you. It's just such a crazy notion.

Shrug. It's what he does. Likes a name. Ignores the facts.

[MrTPlush]

I in no WAY intimated I wanted the brewers to acquire Jay Bruce when I started this thread. Everyone seems ot think that's what I implied. It's not...What I implied is DS is still sitting there doing nothing to try to improve the gaping holes this team has in CF and at 2B. You cannot tell me there haven't been guys put on waivers that he could have acquired for next to nothing at those two positions. August deals generally do not cost much in terms of talent to give up, so I don't see the harm in him acquiring some one.

 

I intentionally made it about you wanting Jay Bruce because unless you are in the Brewers front office you have absolutely no clue who they are attempting to acquire and what for. You don't know who is available and for what. There are no trade clauses that could make a Lewis Brinson and Josh Hader for Ian Kinsler trade not work.

 

Also do you realize why guys aren't expensive? Partially their contracts, but they also usually aren't very good. So the odds anyone we acquire actually makes a difference is pretty darn minimal.

[monty57]

There are no trade clauses that could make a Lewis Brinson and Josh Hader for Ian Kinsler trade not work.

 

I'd say there are some sanity clauses that should make us not do that trade as well :-)

[LouisEly]

Also do you realize why guys aren't expensive? Partially their contracts, but they also usually aren't very good. So the odds anyone we acquire actually makes a difference is pretty darn minimal.

Bruce has a marginally higher OPS (.868) vs. RHP than either Braun (.859) or Santana (.819). Most pitchers are RH. Citi Field is also a pitcher-friendly park; Bruce's away OPS is .915 while his home OPS is .763. The notion that he isn't very good is patently false.

 

Why they aren't expensive? None of us knows. Salary is a component. But Bruce isn't the only OF that didn't command much in trade value - any notion that J.D. Martinez (season OPS of 1.008!) isn't very good is a far worse conclusion than anything Briggs posted in this tread.

 

I think the reason they don't command much is that it isn't difficult to find corner OF, and that is the main reason why I have been questioning spending so many high draft picks on OFs. People say, "Oh, they can just trade them, take the best player"; well, if OFs are easy to find, there won't be a need for them.

 

Simple supply and demand economics - high supply of OFs + marginal deman = low price. That's why, IMO, they aren't expensive.

[MrTPlush]

Sorry you took that as all. I was referring the majority of players. Obviously supply vs. demand is a component. Guys we would target(Kinsler) aren't that great.

 

Bigger point was you can use this trade as an example or a way to judge Stearns.

[Ennder]

 

You just don't know the trickle down effect a player can have. One guy gets brought in and produces and all of a sudden others are producing again. You just don't know. That's why this is frustrating. To do nothing is basically throwing in the towel.

 

 

Or they can come in and just do nothing or they can come in and stink like Cahill has. One player rarely makes a large difference in under half a season unless they are a stud that you have to pay a ton for. If we had traded for Kinsler and Bruce the team might have 1 more win than it does right now. You can't get hung up on results, you have to look at the actual roster. This is all just a sequencing issue. If we had our cold streak right before the all star break nobody wants us to be buyers, but we happened to win 8 of 10 and hit our high point so everyone wants to buy. This team is not a playoff team and a couple marginal players added does not make it one.

 

We had an 10-2 stretch in May too, followed that up losing 5 in a row. Baseball is a really streaky game and you don't want to get stuck judging your team by its record right after the hot streak.

[bill hAll Star]

We need to trade for Curtis Granderson now so his trickle-down effect makes Villar learn to contact the baseball at the plate again. Or bring in Kinsler so his leadership gets Aguilar to transform his defense.

 

Am I doing this right?

[pacopete4]

We need to trade for Curtis Granderson now so his trickle-down effect makes Villar learn to contact the baseball at the plate again. Or bring in Kinsler so his leadership gets Aguilar to transform his defense.

 

Am I doing this right?

 

Yep. Sometimes the right mix is just needed. It's okay if you don't believe that. Some do, some don't. But you don't have to attemp to belittle those that do. Your act has gotten stale.

[monty57]

I don't think I'd bring Granderson in to teach anyone how to make contact. Maybe on how to hit for power or take walks, but not to make contact.

[bill hAll Star]

We need to trade for Curtis Granderson now so his trickle-down effect makes Villar learn to contact the baseball at the plate again. Or bring in Kinsler so his leadership gets Aguilar to transform his defense.

 

Am I doing this right?

 

Yep. Sometimes the right mix is just needed. It's okay if you don't believe that. Some do, some don't. But you don't have to attemp to belittle those that do. Your act has gotten stale.

 

I'm not trying to belittle you necessarily...I'm just wondering how the heck you or anyone knows what this mix is that makes other players better and also why the teams that the 3 or 4 guys in question that are supposed to trickle down succes currently reside on are all terrible.

 

OK, I guess it sounds like belittling. I just don't understand having the GM/owner flipping players around and paying money to do so and you can belittle them to believe that adding different players will magically resurrect other players...because...trickle-down.

[pacopete4]

We need to trade for Curtis Granderson now so his trickle-down effect makes Villar learn to contact the baseball at the plate again. Or bring in Kinsler so his leadership gets Aguilar to transform his defense.

 

Am I doing this right?

 

Yep. Sometimes the right mix is just needed. It's okay if you don't believe that. Some do, some don't. But you don't have to attemp to belittle those that do. Your act has gotten stale.

 

I'm not trying to belittle you necessarily...I'm just wondering how the heck you or anyone knows what this mix is that makes other players better and also why the teams that the 3 or 4 guys in question that are supposed to trickle down succes currently reside on are all terrible.

 

OK, I guess it sounds like belittling. I just don't understand having the GM/owner flipping players around and paying money to do so and you can belittle them to believe that adding different players will magically resurrect other players...because...trickle-down.

 

Thats what teams do, pay money for the services of players. And you don't need to understand it to not act like a jerk, do you?

 

But you're right, I don't know the mix. I wish I did. Teams search for it every year. That's why teams with the best records don't always win, because a mixture (of usually Cardinals) goes out and beats teams with better players. It's not unheard of. Like I said, you don't have to believe in that, but again, don't act like a bunghole towards those that do. I'm not belittling your opinion and haven't in this conversation. Just gave my thoughts on it.

[bill hAll Star]

Thats what teams do, pay money for the services of players. And you don't need to understand it to not act like a jerk, do you?

 

But you're right, I don't know the mix. I wish I did. Teams search for it every year. That's why teams with the best records don't always win, because a mixture (of usually Cardinals) goes out and beats teams with better players. It's not unheard of. Like I said, you don't have to believe in that, but again, don't act like a bunghole towards those that do.

 

Let's make a deal. I won't mock the idea of it if the idea of it doesn't involve calling a GM and owner stupid or cheap for not wanting to sink millions of dollars into shuffling deck chairs around and paying millions of dollars to do so to find the right mix. If you want to think that adding an older, mediocre player will fix things, fine. Calling the owner and GM stupid for not doing such things is overboard. I'm not saying that because I feel like defending DS and MA...I just thing it's kinda weird.

 

And yeah, generally teams win divisions and get to the playoffs due to talent. Adding different personalities can maybe get you over the top. Everyone hated Curt Schilling and the BoSox won plenty of championships with him. Pujols knows the Cardinal Way™ but suddenly his team filled with veterans in Anaheim is garbage.

 

The Brewers aren't in "get me over the top mode." They're in the mode of maybe accidentally stealing a playoff spot with 83 wins and if Mark wants to spend his own money on Phillips or Kinsler, I'd be OK with it...but I'm not going to call he or DS fools for not wanting to part with $ or future prospects to chase this idea.

[pacopete4]

Thats what teams do, pay money for the services of players. And you don't need to understand it to not act like a jerk, do you?

 

But you're right, I don't know the mix. I wish I did. Teams search for it every year. That's why teams with the best records don't always win, because a mixture (of usually Cardinals) goes out and beats teams with better players. It's not unheard of. Like I said, you don't have to believe in that, but again, don't act like a bunghole towards those that do.

 

Let's make a deal. I won't mock the idea of it if the idea of it doesn't involve calling a GM and owner stupid or cheap for not wanting to sink millions of dollars into shuffling deck chairs around and paying millions of dollars to do so to find the right mix. If you want to think that adding an older, mediocre player will fix things, fine. Calling the owner and GM stupid for not doing such things is overboard. I'm not saying that because I feel like defending DS and MA...I just thing it's kinda weird.

 

And yeah, generally teams win divisions and get to the playoffs due to talent. Adding different personalities can maybe get you over the top. Everyone hated Curt Schilling and the BoSox won plenty of championships with him. Pujols knows the Cardinal Way™ but suddenly his team filled with veterans in Anaheim is garbage.

 

The Brewers aren't in "get me over the top mode." They're in the mode of maybe accidentally stealing a playoff spot with 83 wins and if Mark wants to spend his own money on Phillips or Kinsler, I'd be OK with it...but I'm not going to call he or DS fools for not wanting to part with $ or future prospects to chase this idea.

 

To each their own. And I don't have to make a deal on these boards with someone who is actually trying to belittle another poster, all because they don't agree or understand their thinking. Pretty small stuff right there. I didn't mean to offend you by saying our owner was cheap, even though I believe he is to some extent. If i had the means, my payroll was extremely cheap, and I was 2 games out (at one point up 5.5), I would be using some resources (no top prospects) to give myself the opportunity for our fifth playoff team in the Brewers existence. If it didn't work out, so be it. But I wouldn't just stand pat and watch the "Titanic" sink without doing a few things. Swarzak wasn't enough. It just wasn't. And by the new reports, it looks like they might still add someone. Question is, will be it too late.

[monty57]

I just think it's an odds thing. To start the year, the odds weren't high for the Brewers to make the playoffs, so they filled their gaping holes at 1B and 3B, but traded away most of their bullpen and went into the season with a pretty low payroll.

 

They had a relatively good first half, mixed with a very bad first half for the Cubs (both relative to pre-season expectations), so they were willing to part with some money and/or prospects to improve the roster. However, the odds of the the Brewers continuing to play a little better than their talent level, the Pirates and Cardinals continuing to play below their talent level, and the Cubs continuing to play a lot worse than their talent level weren't high enough that the Brewers were willing to go overboard in spending to improve their roster.

 

Stearns didn't sit around doing nothing. He improved the bullpen, which was the weakest area of the team. The fact that the offense, which had been productive, suddenly forgot how to score runs isn't Stearns' fault. If anything, the knowledge that the team could fall apart was the reason he was hesitant to give up too much, and we should be glad that we didn't throw away guys like Brinson, Hader, Ortiz, etc only to have the team fall apart. I seriously doubt that the addition of Kinsler or Quintana would have made much difference when pretty much the whole team has laid an egg since the All Star break.

 

I was one of the guys who wanted Quintana, but I am very glad we didn't give up what it would've taken to get him, as something like Brinson, Ortiz and Ray probably wouldn't have beaten what the Cubs gave up.

 

If we could get Kinsler for a song, then I'm sure he'd already be a Brewer. That he's not a Brewer probably means it would take something significant to get him. That or someone else claimed him so that the Brewers or another team couldn't get him.

[trwi7]

Who other than guys like Gray, Darvish and Quintana were even traded? It seemed like the deadline this year was either big names or secondary pieces. It didn't involve decent to good regulars unless I'm missing someone.

[bill hAll Star]

Thats what teams do, pay money for the services of players. And you don't need to understand it to not act like a jerk, do you?

 

But you're right, I don't know the mix. I wish I did. Teams search for it every year. That's why teams with the best records don't always win, because a mixture (of usually Cardinals) goes out and beats teams with better players. It's not unheard of. Like I said, you don't have to believe in that, but again, don't act like a bunghole towards those that do.

 

Let's make a deal. I won't mock the idea of it if the idea of it doesn't involve calling a GM and owner stupid or cheap for not wanting to sink millions of dollars into shuffling deck chairs around and paying millions of dollars to do so to find the right mix. If you want to think that adding an older, mediocre player will fix things, fine. Calling the owner and GM stupid for not doing such things is overboard. I'm not saying that because I feel like defending DS and MA...I just thing it's kinda weird.

 

And yeah, generally teams win divisions and get to the playoffs due to talent. Adding different personalities can maybe get you over the top. Everyone hated Curt Schilling and the BoSox won plenty of championships with him. Pujols knows the Cardinal Way™ but suddenly his team filled with veterans in Anaheim is garbage.

 

The Brewers aren't in "get me over the top mode." They're in the mode of maybe accidentally stealing a playoff spot with 83 wins and if Mark wants to spend his own money on Phillips or Kinsler, I'd be OK with it...but I'm not going to call he or DS fools for not wanting to part with $ or future prospects to chase this idea.

 

To each their own. And I don't have to make a deal on these boards with someone who is actually trying to belittle another poster, all because they don't agree or understand their thinking. Pretty small stuff right there. I didn't mean to offend you by saying our owner was cheap, even though I believe he is to some extent. If i had the means, my payroll was extremely cheap, and I was 2 games out (at one point up 5.5), I would be using some resources (no top prospects) to give myself the opportunity for our fifth playoff team in the Brewers existence. If it didn't work out, so be it. But I wouldn't just stand pat and watch the "Titanic" sink without doing a few things. Swarzak wasn't enough. It just wasn't. And by the new reports, it looks like they might still add someone. Question is, will be it too late.

 

I think the main assumption (backup quarterback theory) here where we differ is that you are applying way too much certainty to modest upgrades getting the job done.

 

The idea of, "we had a real chance at a fleeting [for this franchise] playoff spot for the playoffs and it would've happened if we made these little moves" is A. ignoring that they possibly tried to make those moves and the teams returned with absurd offers and B. assumes that those moves unequivocally would have put them over the top.

[bill hAll Star]

Who other than guys like Gray, Darvish and Quintana were even traded? It seemed like the deadline this year was either big names or secondary pieces. It didn't involve decent to good regulars unless I'm missing someone.

 

The whole argument on this thread revolves around "just little upgrades to shake things up" getting the Brewers over the top.

[pacopete4]

 

I think the main assumption (backup quarterback theory) here where we differ is that you are applying way too much certainty to modest upgrades getting the job done.

 

The idea of, "we had a real chance at a fleeting [for this franchise] playoff spot for the playoffs and it would've happened if we made these little moves" is A. ignoring that they possibly tried to make those moves and the teams returned with absurd offers and B. assumes that those moves unequivocally would have put them over the top.

 

I haven't assumed a damn thing. Now you're trying to put words in my mouth? We could've went out and got Gray and Quintana and missed the playoffs. Not sure when anything close to what you stated above was ever said. That wasn't my point at all. I've even said it's a chance at the right mixture or a kickstarter for the guys on the team. Whatever you want to call it BUT a gaurentee. Never, ever... EVER came close to saying that. Just said that trying something COULD be better than doing nothing at all. And with what I stated about about low payrol, still in the mix, yada yada yada... I don't see the harm in it. And like I also stated, it looks like the Brewers are already checking in on a possible move.