Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?

[adambr2]

While it seems clear the Brewers are content with Hader in the bullpen for the rest of the season, where does he go from here in 2018?

 

Its going to be hard to give him a rotation spot at least to start 2018 at the MLB level, given the competition. You'd also like to not further weaken the weak point of this team when he's been very successful in his role. But you also don't want to get too far away from him starting if you think his future is a high end starter.

 

If you're going to groom him in the pen, you could be looking at a future closer, or perhaps a 'bullpen ace' situational type role. Where can he be the most successful and provide the best value to the team?

[patrickgpe]

i think he is a starter, just not this season. he wouldn't be the first top prospect to get his MLB feet wet in the pen for his first season.

[NievesNoNO]

I think he gets every chance to start from spring next season. A team like the Brewers has to give him every chance to start. Outside of Nelson, I'd say he's more talented than anybody in our current rotation. Should Anderson come back strong, to me the only two guys that have spots assured in the rotation next year are him and Nelson.

[torts]

he'll be a starter next year. Regardless of the success this year, I dont think our rotation is "locked" up beyond Nelson, Anderson and Davies (baring any year end implosions). his "stuff" is better than everyone else in the rotation.

 

Nelson

Anderson

Davies

___

___

[Lathund]

If he shows decent control, managing a reasonably low pitch count, and the changeup is OK, then give him a chance to start. In the bullpen I see him more as what I guess you mean by a bullpen ace, a fireman, an Andrew Miller type. High leverage situations, multiple innings when needed.

[chuckiehacks]

I think it depends on him being comfortable with more than just his fastball. He's pretty much all fastball currently (with usage rates falling for his other pitches), that could be a result of moving to the bullpen, or lack or comfort with (or control of) his other pitches could be the reason he's in the bullpen.

 

If he's going to be all FB-CH or FB-SL, he probably winds up in the bullpen. If he can at least flash the third pitch, I think he can start.

[torts]

I dont think ive read anywhere else but here that Hader is a future BP arm...

[MrTPlush]

This is an interesting thing to look at. With an utter lack of inning this year it should be interesting to see how they approach him as a starter. If we plan to compete we will have to get creative.

[3and2Fastball]

He looks to me more like a relief ace similar to Andrew Miller, and a very valuable one at that. I can understand wanting to see if he could be a starter though

[paul253]

I think he's a bullpen arm. I jut don't think he has the control to be a starter. Ever since he has come to Milwaukee he's averaged less than five innings per start in the minors. He throws way too many pitches becuase he throws way too many balls. You can't have a starter going five innings every time out because it's a bullpen killer. I think he'll get a shot to start but I think he ends up in the pen.

[MadThinker88]

He (Hader) should be a starter until he proves to be ineffective in that role or unable to remain healthy enough to be in that role.

 

Individuals that prove to be unable to start but have 1 or 2 exceptional skills over shorter periods are the ones that get converted to bullpen roles (situational ace or closer)...

[chuckiehacks]

I dont think ive read anywhere else but here that Hader is a future BP arm...

 

Just one example, but Keith Law has said for years that he thinks Hader is a bullpen arm.

[brewcrewdue80]

Let's find out how well Woodruff does in the rotation down the stretch here. Bullpen Ace with Kneble isn't a bad outcome. Hader will probably see some starts in the offseason somewhere to keep the IP higher if they do move on to a SP role. As of now he'd be tough to trust with more than 26starts, unless he was never going over 5IP in his starts.

[danzig6767]

He looks to me more like a relief ace similar to Andrew Miller, and a very valuable one at that. I can understand wanting to see if he could be a starter though

If Hader does end up being deemed a bullpen arm, i hope he gets used in a Miller like fashion and not locked into just some rigid 7th or 8th inning role.

[adambr2]

I dont think ive read anywhere else but here that Hader is a future BP arm...

 

Just one example, but Keith Law has said for years that he thinks Hader is a bullpen arm.

 

Yeah, there are a lot of scouts and analysts that have said they think Hader is a future reliver.

[adambr2]

He looks to me more like a relief ace similar to Andrew Miller, and a very valuable one at that. I can understand wanting to see if he could be a starter though

If Hader does end up being deemed a bullpen arm, i hope he gets used in a Miller like fashion and not locked into just some rigid 7th or 8th inning role.

 

Amen. Locking a guy into a role based on the number that is next to the 'inning' is one of the most ridiculous things ever to somehow grace its way into the manager 'book.'

 

Its 2017 and some managers have thankfully started to figure it out, but I still cringe anytime I hear a pitcher referred to as our '7th inning guy' or '8th inning guy.'

[JohnBriggs12]

He's been compared by some to Chris Sale. Even if he's not quite to that level, elite starters are hard to find. They have to give him a shot. Bullpen is the fall back.

[KeithStone53151]

I think it depends on him being comfortable with more than just his fastball. He's pretty much all fastball currently (with usage rates falling for his other pitches), that could be a result of moving to the bullpen, or lack or comfort with (or control of) his other pitches could be the reason he's in the bullpen.

 

If he's going to be all FB-CH or FB-SL, he probably winds up in the bullpen. If he can at least flash the third pitch, I think he can start.

 

Hader throws FB-CH-SL, currently he throws FB the most primarily because nobody can catch up to it. It's so hard and with deceptive delivery, throwing a changeup is doing hitters a favor. Judge hit his HR off a Hader changeup. It isn't uncommon for starters to try using only 2 pitches to get through the order the first time as to not show the hitter everything. I don't think Hader will have a problem throwing more secondary stuff the second and third time through an order if they start catching up to the fastball. In the minors he hasn't been a guy that's gotten blown up 2nd/3rd time through. If Hader doesn't make it as a starter, it will be command related and not because his secondary stuff isn't any good.

[Devinep]

I like the current way of using him like once every two weeks. He still hasn't thrown as many MLB innings for the Brewers as Tommy Millone (sigh)

[paul253]

I don't think Hader will have a problem throwing more secondary stuff the second and third time through an order if they start catching up to the fastball

 

Assuming he can even make it to the third time through the order.

[torts]

Wow what a heads up play by Pina and arcia, impressive as fffffff

[Ennder]

I think he probably profiles as a super reliever but I don't mind them exploring the starter side of things. I think he is wasted as just a closer.

[reillymcshane]

I know that the best case scenario for Hader is that he becomes a starter. However, I suspect that the club might use him as a reliever going forward.

 

I have no proof or anything - just a hunch.

 

Hader's fastball/slider combo would be devastating in the bullpen. He can forget about trying to throw his change up - which doesn't seem to want to ever really come around. The club will let him focus on the things he does well - and let him be really good at that.

 

Another reason Hader might be in the bullpen is by his own decision. Perhaps he just understands his limitations, and feels the bullpen is the best place for him. He wouldn't be the first guy to go to the bullpen and find that it's really his destiny.

 

Again, just speculation.

[TJseven7]

While it seems clear the Brewers are content with Hader in the bullpen for the rest of the season, where does he go from here in 2018?

 

Its going to be hard to give him a rotation spot at least to start 2018 at the MLB level, given the competition. You'd also like to not further weaken the weak point of this team when he's been very successful in his role. But you also don't want to get too far away from him starting if you think his future is a high end starter.

 

If you're going to groom him in the pen, you could be looking at a future closer, or perhaps a 'bullpen ace' situational type role. Where can he be the most successful and provide the best value to the team?

 

Been saying for close to a month that I dont see him in the rotation in 2018. I don't want him in the rotation... yet. I have no issues with starting his clock in the pen and having him continue to work on the secondary stuff. The Sale comps on his fastball seem legit. Guys don't see it... can't catch it. If he rounds out the arsenal then he has ACE potential. Not TOR... ACE. Until he does he's very likely a very good starter... 3 range with low ip counts. Instead of taking pressure off a bullpen he'd add pressure to the pen.

 

But having a dude like him who can take the ball from suter davies woodruff when they are rocky and not only put out the fire but carry a few innings. That turns losses into wins. He could be that wipe out weapon even leaning heavy on the FB. We've also seen the price for Miller via trade via contract. It's staggering because its worth it. Hader being a pen weapon... a momentum switch... isn't short changing his prospect status and expected worth in the least.

 

Nelson Anderson Suter Woodruff Davies Garza... until 2 fall off a cliff (garza traded?) there is zero reason to move hader to the rotation. His arsenal says no currently and the need is low. On the other hand... knebel CL barnes 6/7 hughes 6 and I see a pretty big need.

 

Having knebel swarzak with barnes hughes and a weapon in hader has the pen looking impressive as of late.

[3and2Fastball]

I don't know if Hader can throw 98 consistently as a starter. He's much more hittable cruising at 93-94, although his slider is filthy. I like him more coming out of the pen blazing 98