Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade

[rickh150]

Weird... in 2014, I remember that many here wanted simply to get in. The playoffs meant "if you're in, anything can happen!" Now it seems, with DS, many do not want us striving for that Wild Card this year because there is no way we can compete with Dodgers, Nats, Cubs, etc. Better to trade NO prospects for any type of rental, no matter how cheap we could get him for. Better to just play the young guys and lead Villar off, no matter how close to first or the wild card we are because we'll probably just lose anyway.

 

Have we gone mad?

Let's just say we would have picked up JD Martinez and Ian Kinsler, along with Jeffress and Swarzek. Domingo is in center with Broxton as late inning replacement. Does anyone think these acquisitions would have been anywhere near expensive? We would have parted with like 2 more kinda quality guys, maybe 2 in the top 30, but not in the top 10.

 

Count me as someone who thinks we pissed our chances away at the All Star break by waaaaaay over valuing lower ranked prospects for legit talent to fill major gaps at 2B and CF. That being said, DS can redeem himself in early August by still making waiver moves that help us now that don't put the rebuild in any sort of jeopardy.

[tmwiese55]

I mean, we currently have 3 healthy starting pitchers. I know it's still been good since the ASB break overall but can anyone look at a starting rotation of Nelson, Davies, Suter, ?, ? and think this is realistic right now to go all in and trade for hitters to fix those holes, while also finding relievers to fix that glaring hole, oh and also finding a legit starter or two? First, think what it would cost to fill those holes. Second, if you have that many holes are you really that close?

[adambr2]

Weird... in 2014, I remember that many here wanted simply to get in. The playoffs meant "if you're in, anything can happen!" Now it seems, with DS, many do not want us striving for that Wild Card this year because there is no way we can compete with Dodgers, Nats, Cubs, etc. Better to trade NO prospects for any type of rental, no matter how cheap we could get him for. Better to just play the young guys and lead Villar off, no matter how close to first or the wild card we are because we'll probably just lose anyway.

 

Have we gone mad?

Let's just say we would have picked up JD Martinez and Ian Kinsler, along with Jeffress and Swarzek. Domingo is in center with Broxton as late inning replacement. Does anyone think these acquisitions would have been anywhere near expensive? We would have parted with like 2 more kinda quality guys, maybe 2 in the top 30, but not in the top 10.

 

Count me as someone who thinks we pissed our chances away at the All Star break by waaaaaay over valuing lower ranked prospects for legit talent to fill major gaps at 2B and CF. That being said, DS can redeem himself in early August by still making waiver moves that help us now that don't put the rebuild in any sort of jeopardy.

 

Its ironic that people bring up 2014, because standings wise we were in a very similar position to what we are now, even a bit better then.

 

Yet we made no significant moves, just Gerardo Parra. Why not? Because our farm system had been completely depleted from previous trades, and we had nothing of real value to offer to any seller.

 

We were also in a very different time for our organization in 2014 and our organizational philosophy was different to reflect that. It's an apples to oranges comparison to compare 2017 to 2014.

[superfly]

The Brewers window hasn't even started.... they have realistically no true core or players outside of Braun who have any track record that 1st half performance wasn't a fluke. This team has more holes on roster than me trying to play goalie in men's league hockey (that's a lot) Arcia is growing & learning, hopefully Shaw, Domingo, Pina are for real, Braun can't stay on field this season. Villar has been terrible. Sogard is not as great as he started out. Our staff can't stay healthy. With way it's been going, he could have traded for one but they prob get hurt as well. Broxton is fire or ice. Brinson is struggling & mostly ice right now. Thames & Aguilar I still don't know what we truely have.

 

This is an overachieving team. Please.... for love of all that is holy look at the Nationals roster & staff! That is a contending team! They have a real core! They have 5 guys hitting .320+ with 20+HRs! Even without Strasburg, their rotation is strong!

 

Trading away our system to pretend we are even close to a true contender would be laughable. Windows start when top prospects come up & perform, Arcia & know Brinson are only two. Hader isn't starting. We will get there but no need to try to skip steps.

 

Is that the same Washington team that were it not for a 8 run 8th inning we probably take 2 of 3? I doubt the 15-2 would have been so lopsided in that case either.

 

Amazes me how undersold the major league roster of this franchise can be while the minors prospects are talked up in the opposite fashion.

[adambr2]

The Brewers window hasn't even started.... they have realistically no true core or players outside of Braun who have any track record that 1st half performance wasn't a fluke. This team has more holes on roster than me trying to play goalie in men's league hockey (that's a lot) Arcia is growing & learning, hopefully Shaw, Domingo, Pina are for real, Braun can't stay on field this season. Villar has been terrible. Sogard is not as great as he started out. Our staff can't stay healthy. With way it's been going, he could have traded for one but they prob get hurt as well. Broxton is fire or ice. Brinson is struggling & mostly ice right now. Thames & Aguilar I still don't know what we truely have.

 

This is an overachieving team. Please.... for love of all that is holy look at the Nationals roster & staff! That is a contending team! They have a real core! They have 5 guys hitting .320+ with 20+HRs! Even without Strasburg, their rotation is strong!

 

Trading away our system to pretend we are even close to a true contender would be laughable. Windows start when top prospects come up & perform, Arcia & know Brinson are only two. Hader isn't starting. We will get there but no need to try to skip steps.

 

Is that the same Washington team that were it not for a 8 run 8th inning we probably take 2 of 3? I doubt the 15-2 would have been so lopsided in that case either.

 

Amazes me how undersold the major league roster of this franchise can be while the minors prospects are talked up in the opposite fashion.

 

It doesn't make a lot of sense to cite the talent of a team based off the results of one there game series. The Padres swept the Cubs last month, it doesn't mean the Padres are better than the Cubs.

 

He's absolutely right -- talent-wise, we are not there yet with teams like the Nats, Dodgers and Cubs. Not yet.

[MrTPlush]

For the last time DOMINGO SANTANA CANT AND WONT PLAY CF.

[Humans Need Water]

I have no problem with trading away prospects to get talent but you just have to be realistic with the roster you have. This team is nowhere near as good as the Nationals or Dodgers. We are likely worse than the Diamondbacks and Cubs even with a few additions. So realistically we are hoping the DBacks or Cubs collapse and that we get really lucky and somehow beat 2 teams a lot better than us.

 

This year the NL is really stacked with top end teams, it just isn't the time to make this kind of move. For me to think we had a good chance to win the World Series this year we would have to trade for 4 or 5 players and at least one of them would need to be an ace pitcher which Sonny Gray is not. So the Brewers could have gone the Yankee's path I guess. Trade for Quintana and Darvish and a couple of the bullpen guys. Maybe we become on even footing with the lesser NL playoff teams. We may or may not make the playoffs since we have ground to make up. That would have taken at least half of our top 10 prospects with some lesser prospects as well. Unlike the Yankees we don't have a bunch of young guys in the bigs performing at a high level though so now we just traded away our near future. It just isn't a good way to run a team, especially one without deep pockets.

 

This is a great post Ennder..and I'd like to touch on the highlighted quote. First i agree with you that Gray isn't an ace, but Verlander and Darvish are. I also agree with you that they need 4-5 players..Here's what i would have done, and I think you could have done it all without touching Brinson. Now, right or wrong I'm going to base this on the prospect rankings(by system that teams gave up to acquire these players). Now also keep in mind, the topic was about what was needed to compete THIS year...so control is NOT an issue for this comparison. Here's who I would have targeted:

 

Darvish/Verlander

Wilson

Kinsler

Granderson

 

That's 4 guys that touch on the Crew's major weaknesses this year..now who would I have given up to acquire these players?? Again remember, really the only baseline we have to compare is the prospect rankings by organization..

 

Brewers get: Yu Darvish(the Dodgers gave up their #4, #17 & #27 prospects)

Brewers give up: (#4 Brandon Woodruff, #16 Trey Supak(had to substitute him for #17 Ryan Cordell), #27 Larry Ernesto

 

Brewers get: Justin Wilson

Brewers give up : Isan Daz and Jacob Nottingham

 

Brewers get: Ian Kinsler

Brewers give up: Hard to judge what it would have taken, but given the Brewers would have taken on salary it couldn't have taken too much..so lets just say they give them a top 30 prospect..Let's just say Kodi Medeiros

 

Brewers get: Curtis Granderson

Brewers give: Again, hard to say, but let's just say it's a minor piece...pick whoever you want.

 

In looking at this, would that REALLY have been giving up that much for the Brewers in gaining those players?? I don't think so.

I'm in agreement on this. I would have tried to get Darvish. Dodgers didn't give up the farm and got a stud for a couple months.

In no way would I part with 6yrs of a MLB ready Woodruff for 2 months of Darvish. Woodruff is making his debut on Thur and most likely will get 3-4 starts and once Chase is back they'll have to figure out who's removed from the rotation but with him being MLB ready with a 94-96 fastball, late breaking slider to keep guys off his fastball (which he leads with) and an improving change - controlling all of them - there's no way I'm parting with that for 2 months of a playoff run we're most likely not going to win.

 

I understand you're just looking at what we need to compete this year but you can't remove player control as that's an important variable when making deals and which players are involved.

 

If we did all those deals and don't overtake the Cubs for the division then we just gave up Woodruff, Diaz, Nottingham, Supak, Kodi, Ernesto + 1 for 1yr of Wilson. So, yes, we would really be giving up a lot. Big picture....

[rickh150]

For the last time DOMINGO SANTANA CANT AND WONT PLAY CF.

 

He did last season.... he still could a few games a week.

He won't? Unless you are Garza, I didn't think players controlled where or when they played.

[rickh150]

I mean, we currently have 3 healthy starting pitchers. I know it's still been good since the ASB break overall but can anyone look at a starting rotation of Nelson, Davies, Suter, ?, ? and think this is realistic right now to go all in and trade for hitters to fix those holes, while also finding relievers to fix that glaring hole, oh and also finding a legit starter or two? First, think what it would cost to fill those holes. Second, if you have that many holes are you really that close?

 

First off filling holes at the All Star break would have helped us win 2 or 3 lost games. Filling holes at 2B and CF wouldn't have cost much based on what rentals are going for..... take a look at what the best bullpen rental (Neshek) cost prospect wise, the best rental bat (JD Martinez) cost prospect wise....

Injuries are playing a factor with the rotation over the last week. Woodruff is going to get a shot. Garza will be back shortly. Anderson will be back in 3 weeks. Hader could start, if wanted. It's not as dire as you make it to be.....

[tmwiese55]

I mean, we currently have 3 healthy starting pitchers. I know it's still been good since the ASB break overall but can anyone look at a starting rotation of Nelson, Davies, Suter, ?, ? and think this is realistic right now to go all in and trade for hitters to fix those holes, while also finding relievers to fix that glaring hole, oh and also finding a legit starter or two? First, think what it would cost to fill those holes. Second, if you have that many holes are you really that close?

 

First off filling holes at the All Star break would have helped us win 2 or 3 lost games. Filling holes at 2B and CF wouldn't have cost much based on what rentals are going for..... take a look at what the best bullpen rental (Neshek) cost prospect wise, the best rental bat (JD Martinez) cost prospect wise....

Injuries are playing a factor with the rotation over the last week. Woodruff is going to get a shot. Garza will be back shortly. Anderson will be back in 3 weeks. Hader could start, if wanted. It's not as dire as you make it to be.....

 

So, we're like 7 players away. Are we really that close then? And even if you pull all that off, look at what you'd have compared to LAD and WAS.

[bill hAll Star]

I just find it interesting that when we're going to make a big "buy" trade in theory, the proposed deals on this board are always the ones where we give up the prospects that we've soured on or don't have high expectations for. Even the lesser guys we give up that we may not think are a huge deal (for a Kinsler deal for example) might come back to bite us. We want as many darts as possible to throw.

 

I basically fully endorsed the 2008 and 2011-era trades where we gave up several All-Stars and 10 WAR players and some of them seemed to be throw-ins or lower ceiling guys at the time.

 

Look at where this team is right now and it isn't even close to 2008 and especially 2011 on the growth arc...plus the Cubs are a little bit more longstanding competition than our rivals were in those years.

 

A few Kinsler-esque trades are pointless. I highly doubt that it moves the needle and it removes a dart that we can throw to be a good player down the road in our system.

 

Going for Gray and more is also foolish in my opinion. We will have taken everything built from when we decided to sell in '15 and pin our hopes to '18 and '19 where the chances of a division and/or World Series are still pretty bleak. "Yeah, but we could have done it without giving up Brinson." Sure, we avoided dealing Lucroy and one or two other assumed key prospects in 2011 and we had a decent team from 2012 and beyond but zero farm system to get back over the top.

[PeaveyFury]

First off filling holes at the All Star break would have helped us win 2 or 3 lost games..

 

I think this is said with the benefit of hindsight.... we were in pretty good shape at the break, then won our first series afterward. Noone knew at that time that losing the last game of that series would be the start of the massive slide of the next couple of weeks. I don't think anyone was sitting here on July 15th thinking that massive moves needed to be made right then and there.

[KeithStone53151]

I mean, we currently have 3 healthy starting pitchers. I know it's still been good since the ASB break overall but can anyone look at a starting rotation of Nelson, Davies, Suter, ?, ? and think this is realistic right now to go all in and trade for hitters to fix those holes, while also finding relievers to fix that glaring hole, oh and also finding a legit starter or two? First, think what it would cost to fill those holes. Second, if you have that many holes are you really that close?

 

First off filling holes at the All Star break would have helped us win 2 or 3 lost games. Filling holes at 2B and CF wouldn't have cost much based on what rentals are going for..... take a look at what the best bullpen rental (Neshek) cost prospect wise, the best rental bat (JD Martinez) cost prospect wise....

Injuries are playing a factor with the rotation over the last week. Woodruff is going to get a shot. Garza will be back shortly. Anderson will be back in 3 weeks. Hader could start, if wanted. It's not as dire as you make it to be.....

 

This season/division race is not over. The Brewers outplayed the Cubs for the most part this weekend. It was line drive out after line drive out for the Brewers and our pitching really held them down. Also I believe we set a RISP franchise record over the weekend going 0 for our last 32 or something, which involves a lot of luck as we've been hitting ourselves into scoring position often enough. And this is a team without Anderson at the moment and that got 3 innings out of Guerra one of those Cubs games. The Cubs also have 4 tough series in a row coming up, and if their offense doesn't wake up they'll wind up losing a lot of games over the next 2 weeks and bring the entire division(less cincy) back into contention.

[JohnBriggs12]

Without knowing for who or for what, does it surprise anyone the ever passive Stearns didn't pull the trigger??

 

 

No, but it surprises me some people actually think Stearns is passive.

 

He certainly has been this month letting his rivals sew up the division while he stood pat.

[reillymcshane]

For the last time DOMINGO SANTANA CANT AND WONT PLAY CF.

How about 3B?

[AKCheesehead]

Stearns has a 4-6 year plan...Hopefully the Brewers make the playoffs once in that time period, but if they don't I wouldn't be surprised is he was let go, paving the way for Epstein to swoosh in...joking about Epstein part.

 

I'd be more concerned about some other team stealing Stearns from Milwaukee.

[JohnBriggs12]

They are contending now!!! So looks like it is time to delete the account.

 

Are you like Briggs and really old afraid you will die before the next World Series appearance? Honest question because that is the only way to rationalize your thinking.

 

I have empathy for fans who will die before they seriously go after a championship. A lot will. Heck it's been 35 years and I see no sign that any World Series are likely anytime in the foreseeable future. There's an awful lot of fans that have passed away since 1982. They had a chance this year. Not a great chance but a chance and guess who got the 2 guys who would have been the most help? That's right. The Cubs did. I'm an optimist. I won't throw in the towel just yet. But it's discouraging.

 

As for the rebuild? That's almost laughable. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard about some rosy future for this team. They had more hope when John Jaha, Jeff Cirillo and David Nilsson were top prospects in their system. How'd that work? And those guys actually had some success in the big leagues. They have some nice prospects. So what, they should have. Some of them aren't producing in A ball. Oops! Brewers can't go out and buy Jon Lester's of the world. They never will.

[trwi7]

For the last time DOMINGO SANTANA CANT AND WONT PLAY CF.

How about 3B?

 

Braun at SS and Santana at 3B. I think that's the way I'd go.

[I Heart Brewers]

Bring back Weeks at second please.

[rickh150]

First off filling holes at the All Star break would have helped us win 2 or 3 lost games..

 

I think this is said with the benefit of hindsight.... we were in pretty good shape at the break, then won our first series afterward. Noone knew at that time that losing the last game of that series would be the start of the massive slide of the next couple of weeks. I don't think anyone was sitting here on July 15th thinking that massive moves needed to be made right then and there.

 

I started the Kinsler thread on July 18. Many others were ready to move on from Villar, especially from leadoff spot.

[rwa12]

Just about every team has a significant slump at some point in the season. I'd rather they slump now than September. If they don't pull out of it, then Gray or Kinsler would most likely not have made a difference. They've played above their heads, getting all-star numbers from cast offs and journeymen. The Cubs under performed, regardless of Quintana, they were going to play to their level at some point. The Dodgers, Nationals, and Astros are pretty much juggernauts, this is not a parity year where no one is jumping out...where a short sighted move may make sense. I think the Brewers' biggest issue has been the bullpen, they made two moves to address it. I'm fine with that.

[rickh150]

Just about every team has a significant slump at some point in the season. I'd rather they slump now than September. If they don't pull out of it, then Gray or Kinsler would most likely not have made a difference. They've played above their heads, getting all-star numbers from cast offs and journeymen. The Cubs under performed, regardless of Quintana, they were going to play to their level at some point. The Dodgers, Nationals, and Astros are pretty much juggernauts, this is not a parity year where no one is jumping out...where a short sighted move may make sense. I think the Brewers' biggest issue has been the bullpen, they made two moves to address it. I'm fine with that.

 

Their most untalked about problem is scoring runs late, especially stringing hits together. The 2B and CF spots are holes in lineup now.

[bill hAll Star]

First off filling holes at the All Star break would have helped us win 2 or 3 lost games..

 

I think this is said with the benefit of hindsight.... we were in pretty good shape at the break, then won our first series afterward. Noone knew at that time that losing the last game of that series would be the start of the massive slide of the next couple of weeks. I don't think anyone was sitting here on July 15th thinking that massive moves needed to be made right then and there.

 

I started the Kinsler thread on July 18. Many others were ready to move on from Villar, especially from leadoff spot.

 

Kinsler was terrible in July (.620 OPS)...barely better than Villar.

[FVBrewerFan]

Without knowing for who or for what, does it surprise anyone the ever passive Stearns didn't pull the trigger??

 

 

No, but it surprises me some people actually think Stearns is passive.

 

He certainly has been this month letting his rivals sew up the division while he stood pat.

 

That's not being passive, it's being smart and not letting emotions dictate decisions.

[FVBrewerFan]

They are contending now!!! So looks like it is time to delete the account.

 

Are you like Briggs and really old afraid you will die before the next World Series appearance? Honest question because that is the only way to rationalize your thinking.

 

I have empathy for fans who will die before they seriously go after a championship. A lot will. Heck it's been 35 years and I see no sign that any World Series are likely anytime in the foreseeable future. There's an awful lot of fans that have passed away since 1982. They had a chance this year. Not a great chance but a chance and guess who got the 2 guys who would have been the most help? That's right. The Cubs did. I'm an optimist. I won't throw in the towel just yet. But it's discouraging.

 

As for the rebuild? That's almost laughable. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard about some rosy future for this team. They had more hope when John Jaha, Jeff Cirillo and David Nilsson were top prospects in their system. How'd that work? And those guys actually had some success in the big leagues. They have some nice prospects. So what, they should have. Some of them aren't producing in A ball. Oops! Brewers can't go out and buy Jon Lester's of the world. They never will.

 

Yea, maybe you shouldn't be a Brewers fan. Rebuilding is so horrible and it will never work. When the time is right they will never sign a FA or make a trade. Mark A is cheap, Stearns is just this nervous kid shuttering in the corner. Things are so dire, you may want walk away now while you can.