Cubs get Wilson and Avila

[FidoMcCokefiend]

Another great move for the Brewers. This Cubs team has a very short fuse now. That farm system has absolutely nothing left in it. Stay the course, wait to be good 3 years from now instead of making a dumb move now because the team happened to have a hot streak right before the all star break. This roster is not one player away from making a run, it is 4 or 5. Good job DS.

Could not agree more with this. It's been a nice year in a lot of ways, but they are not in a position to start giving up any prospects of value right now as they are not in a legitimate position to compete this year.

[BigDaddy1974]

There are definitely different schools of thought when it comes to handling the Brewers situation and this trade deadline. I will admit that two weeks ago I would have been in the Briggs camp, but wth the past two weeks I have moved back into the more conservative camp. It makes little sense for the Brewers to try and make a big splash at this point. I believe that they will be very quiet today and most casual fans will be disappointed with that. I think it's smart and I would actually advocate to trade some smaller pieces if the Crew would receive some value in return.

 

As for the comments about a team getting a boost from a trade and another team maybe seeing a lack of a trade and having the opposite effect, I can see that it could be possible in many cases. But is it a difference maker in this case? I don't think so.

 

Also, I really enjoy this forum and it is where I come to first and foremost for Brewer news and discussion. But what becomes tiresome to me is when there is a difference of opinion and people simply cannot or will not admit to the possibility that there are different perspectives and also different solutions. It appears to me that some on this board really struggle with people who differ in opinions and when doing so resort to attacks on people's intelligence. The majority on this forum seem to embrace the rebuild while a smaller group wants to see a win now strategy. Does it make them poor fans or less intelligent people? No, of course not, they'd just have a different opinion. Accept it, discuss it and try seeing things from a different perspective. The snarky little comments that attack the intelligence or character of posters are unnecessary. The civility of this forum is what makes it the best Brewers forum around. Different opinions and perspectives are great for discussion but let's keep it classy.

[BigDaddy1974]

Monty, yes well said.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

I agree that this is a good "hold" by the Brewers. The fact that the Cubs are still dealing from their farm system at this point is a win for the Brewers. Being close enough to put some pressure on them is good for the franchise long term.

 

I have much more faith in Stearns than Dayton Moore, and the Royals model is certainly attainable for the Brewers. KC also has made two playoff appearances in the last 30 years. They happened to make the World Series both years and win one. The Brewers are a cleanly fielded Jerry Hairston ground ball away from being able to say something similar. This roster is competitive right now, but it's still a patchwork, rebuild roster. And yet, it's also still in contention. Enjoy August baseball that matters and watch some of these younger players develop. I think we've got good days ahead as Brewer fans.

[82brewcrew82]

Also, I really enjoy this forum and it is where I come to first and foremost for Brewer news and discussion. But what becomes tiresome to me is when there is a difference of opinion and people simply cannot or will not admit to the possibility that there are different perspectives and also different solutions. It appears to me that some on this board really struggle with people who differ in opinions and when doing so resort to attacks on people's intelligence. The majority on this forum seem to embrace the rebuild while a smaller group wants to see a win now strategy. Does it make them poor fans or less intelligent people? No, of course not, they'd just have a different opinion. Accept it, discuss it and try seeing things from a different perspective. The snarky little comments that attack the intelligence or character of posters are unnecessary. The civility of this forum is what makes it the best Brewers forum around. Different opinions and perspectives are great for discussion but let's keep it classy.

 

I like the back half of your post here and we are all probably a little bit guilty of not keeping that in mind as we post. However, there is a small faction on here that tends to take a particular opinion they have and repeatedly state said opinion as fact. Is it possible that the team morale was affected by not trading for Quintana, sure. Does anyone on this board know if that is the case, absolutely not.

[patrickgpe]

Wilson seems like another swarzak, not much there before this season. Wilson though does have another year of control, but if he returns to 2016 form the brewers would get pennies on the dollar for him. Look at Jeffress and Lucroy.

 

if the brewers were still 5 games up, fine. lets go for a division title this season. loosing 2 out of 3 really sucked this weekend.

 

at this point, I want the brewers to get a starter for the stretch today but hope that nothing more than fringe / very low level prospects are involved.

[Est1970]

I can't help but think of the 2014 season as we go through this current year. That year of course the Brewers led much of the year before faltering in the last months of the season. I remember looking at the Brewers schedule those last two months and seeing a bunch of games with the last place cubs. Those cubs were coming of age and gave the contending Brewers all they could handle that season. That cubs team was "a year away" from contending. Fast forward to 2017. The Brewers have given this cubs team fits this year. The Brewers may not make the playoffs this year, but the crew is the team on the rise. Stay the course, David Stearns.

[Ennder]

Also, I really enjoy this forum and it is where I come to first and foremost for Brewer news and discussion. But what becomes tiresome to me is when there is a difference of opinion and people simply cannot or will not admit to the possibility that there are different perspectives and also different solutions.

 

A lot of this has a long history attached to it. You could rewind the site at least 12 years and see the same things being posted by the same people. I try not to respond to it and have even blocked a couple of users but sometimes I slip.

 

I remember a poster wanting to DFA Jenkins back in 2005 because he was obviously done just to watch Jenkins post over a 1.000 OPS in the second half. Baseball is a streaky game and your opinion of the players and teams shouldn't change with every single hot and cold streak. Just because we had a hot streak doesn't mean we are a 11 games over .500 talent team. You need to be more realistic about the roster.

[3and2Fastball]

I'm good with the Cubs overpaying for Quintana & Wilson.

 

It will be interesting to see if the Brewers make a major move today but if they don't I will trust in the long term vision of our front office. The one move I really want to see is Brett Phillips back to Milwaukee. I'd like to see Phillips & Brinson get a lot of reps in CF for the remainder of the season so that there is more insight on which of them is better and who is ready to be a fulltime starter in 2018

[patrickgpe]

 

I remember a poster wanting to DFA Jenkins back in 2005 because he was obviously done just to watch Jenkins post over a 1.000 OPS in the second half. Baseball is a streaky game and your opinion of the players and teams shouldn't change with every single hot and cold streak. Just because we had a hot streak doesn't mean we are a 11 games over .500 talent team. You need to be more realistic about the roster.

 

I agree, but just because they lose 8/10 there are not that team either. I think once the dust settles the brewers will finish 500 and I can atleast call it a successful season since it will be about 10 games better than I expected. the brewers got everyones hopes up by a hot late june / early july and now people are freaking out because they are as cold as they were hot.

 

I think most people on this board are realistic, especially compared to the general fan base, but I agree with you.

[brewcrewdue80]

Nice to see the Cubs gut more of their minors. Next season theyll become the Brewers of 2009 and quickly wonder why they have to go sign guys like Suppan to maybe create a winning team again.

Maybe Theo is trying to win 1more WS before moving on to another franchise to try winning a WS. He doesnt need to plan long term anymore.

[KeithStone53151]

 

In 3 years the Cubs will stlll be dealing their prospects for good major league players to fill their few holes, and be 15 games ahead of the Brewers. Epstein and Hoyer are head and shoulders above Stearns and will still have the advantage of a budget twice the Brewers'.

 

As a small market team you're not going to beat the big market teams by doing what they do and trading away the farm every trade deadline when you're in the race. We've tried that already and that lead to a limited window of competitiveness and sent us into this mess that required a rebuild.

 

Those were the only 2 playoff appearances since 1982. It took Melvin being aggressive to get even that done. Being passive doesn't work and won't work. Since the All Star game, not only have the Cubs secured the division for 2017 by being aggressive, but have eliminated the Brewers' chances for 2018 and 2019 as well. If picking up Wilson or Quintana wasn't working a year from now, just deal them and get most of what you paid to get them back just as they did with Greinke.

 

Just to be clear, the cubs have NOT secured the division. Not by a long shot. Even if the Brewers don't get back in serious contention, the Pirates are playing very well in the 2nd half and you can never count out those pesky Cardinals. This isn't like the nationals or dodgers where they have a 15 game lead and it would take a miracle for them to lose. 3 other teams are within 5 games. If the cubs have one bad week, at least one of those 3 teams gets close in the standings.

 

Don't be overly shocked if Lester and/or Arrieta run out of gas down the stretch either based on their workload last year, which would be fairly devestating to their chances in the playoffs.

[TJseven7]

The last few weeks showed me how when your rival beats you to the punch and makes the acquisitions you hoped for, it energizes your rival and discourages your team. In short, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. This entire Brewer team has been stung by the Cubs' aggressiveness and Stearns' passive approach. It could be a decade before the Brewers are up by 5 and a half games at the break. Despite breakout years by Shaw and Santana, there are still plenty of question marks and no apparent plan to address them other than to hope young players develop. Would have helped to hold on to Scooter too instead of putting trust in Villar.

 

If the Brewers' players are struggling because the Cubs picked up a good, not great pitcher, well then that is on the players. I also find it funny that starting pitching hasn't seemed to be discouraged, just the hitters and relievers? Maybe, just maybe its talent level coming back to reality?

 

I'm so tired of hearing about the "talent regression." Unless by regression you mean a lack of experience leading to a spell of undisciplined baseball. The projections on this team undersold thames santana shaw pina arcia nelson anderson/suter knebel. They all showed development over what you can safely project.

 

Arcia is putting up a year at the plate better than many expected at any point. But his approach changed some and he's simply better than the medoza start indicated. Shaw has been allstar level. Santana continues to blossom. Thames even after may june is better than expected... power and obp.

 

Sogard sure... was fun. But the rest of the offensive woes don't look like a lack of talent (2b yes and cf is too young) . Looks like a bunch of dudes who aren't beyond their 2nd full season in the majors gripping and losing their plate discipline in a big spot.

[Lathund]

The last few weeks showed me how when your rival beats you to the punch and makes the acquisitions you hoped for, it energizes your rival and discourages your team. In short, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. This entire Brewer team has been stung by the Cubs' aggressiveness and Stearns' passive approach.

 

That's correlation, not causality. The Cubs signing a pitcher who may or may not have gone to the Brewers if he hadn't gone to the Cubs is not the reason we stopped hitting with runners in scoring position. And if, against all odds, it did somehow have something to do with it, then our offense doesn't have the strength to win anything in the first place.

 

The Cubs had most of their WS-winning team return. The Brewers were 1,5 years into a rebuild. Look at the 2013 Cubs for how competitive we "should" be at this stage. DS and the whole organization really has done a fantastic job at uncovering good players in low-key trades, free agent signings, waiver pickups or in getting some more immediate return even in rebuilding trades. That's why we're where we are. But we have barely even started to see the return from the actual rebuilding trades we did. And yes, it may very well be that hardly any of these prospects pan out. It's very unlikely, but it is possible. But we need to take that risk. It's the only way a small budget team has sustained success, by patiently building from within. By squeezing every last bit of value out of every dollar we spend. To never succumb to short termism. We don't have the resources the Cubs or Yankees do. If we try to use the same blueprint as them, to make similar moves and go for the same players, they will beat us.

 

I've seen the argument that standing pat is the easy thing to do, the safe thing, even the "cowardly" thing to do. That DS doesn't have the guts to make moves. I would say it's the other way around: Making these trades is easy. It's what the mainstream fans and mainstream media wants. It's what the owner wants. It feeds the perception that action, any action, is a sign of strength. The hardest thing to do is sometimes to do nothing. To have patience. To stick to your convictions, stick to your plans. That's not to mention the short memories of anyone questioning DS guts. He non-tendered the reigning NL HR champion. To make space for a guy who left for Korea because he couldn't hack it in the majors.

 

Also, I really enjoy this forum and it is where I come to first and foremost for Brewer news and discussion. But what becomes tiresome to me is when there is a difference of opinion and people simply cannot or will not admit to the possibility that there are different perspectives and also different solutions. It appears to me that some on this board really struggle with people who differ in opinions and when doing so resort to attacks on people's intelligence. The majority on this forum seem to embrace the rebuild while a smaller group wants to see a win now strategy. Does it make them poor fans or less intelligent people? No, of course not, they'd just have a different opinion. Accept it, discuss it and try seeing things from a different perspective. The snarky little comments that attack the intelligence or character of posters are unnecessary. The civility of this forum is what makes it the best Brewers forum around. Different opinions and perspectives are great for discussion but let's keep it classy.

 

I think this has more to do with how these opinions are presented. There are several posters on here who are more in the "win now" camp; or at least in the camp to make some moves to make that happen sooner, who don't get the snarky comments or attacks. Probably because they're civil themselves, and don't question the intelligence of either other posters or David Stearns for that matter. Because they support their position with solid arguments. Because they're actually engaging in a debate, attempting to respond to counter arguments. Whether you agree with their viewpoint or not, that's something to respect and respond to with civility.

 

I agree with the basic point that perpetuating the behaviour you mention in your post, and that "he started it" has never led to anything productive. And that using the ignore function is a much better way to deal with it than going on a counter-attack. But I disagree with the premise that this kind of behaviour, for the most part, is a result of simply disagreeing with someone.

[monkeyman343434]

Another great move for the Brewers. This Cubs team has a very short fuse now. That farm system has absolutely nothing left in it. Stay the course, wait to be good 3 years from now instead of making a dumb move now because the team happened to have a hot streak right before the all star break. This roster is not one player away from making a run, it is 4 or 5. Good job DS.

 

In 3 years the Cubs will stlll be dealing their prospects (which Theo will draft and sign and develop between now and then) for good major league players to fill their few holes, and be 15 games ahead of the Brewers who will still be telling us to be patient because even though the first and second wave of prospects were busts, that third wave is really something. Epstein and Hoyer are head and shoulders above Stearns and will still have the advantage of a budget twice the Brewers'.

 

One franchise is trying to sell hope for some future that never seems to get here and the other is selling winning. Brewers have 2, count em 2 playoff appearances in 35 years. Pathetic.

 

Then become a Cubs fan.

[82brewcrew82]

This ^^^^^^^

[Thurston Fluff]

The last few weeks showed me how when your rival beats you to the punch and makes the acquisitions you hoped for, it energizes your rival and discourages your team. In short, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. This entire Brewer team has been stung by the Cubs' aggressiveness and Stearns' passive approach. It could be a decade before the Brewers are up by 5 and a half games at the break. Despite breakout years by Shaw and Santana, there are still plenty of question marks and no apparent plan to address them other than to hope young players develop. Would have helped to hold on to Scooter too instead of putting trust in Villar.

 

I have never been one of those who got on you for your comments. Hell more than once we've joined together on some less than popular positions here. That said I think to so definitively state that this team is stung by the Cubs aggressiveness and the brewers passiveness is well out of what you can possibly know. You are better off sticking to opinions based on observable facts or reports. I am fine with your opinion about how we should go for it even though I disagree. Not so fine with making outlandish statements that are not based on anything at all to back up your opinion.

[monty57]

I've seen the argument that standing pat is the easy thing to do, the safe thing, even the "cowardly" thing to do. That DS doesn't have the guts to make moves. I would say it's the other way around: Making these trades is easy. It's what the mainstream fans and mainstream media wants. It's what the owner wants. It feeds the perception that action, any action, is a sign of strength. The hardest thing to do is sometimes to do nothing. To have patience. To stick to your convictions, stick to your plans. That's not to mention the short memories of anyone questioning DS guts. He non-tendered the reigning NL HR champion. To make space for a guy who left for Korea because he couldn't hack it in the majors.

 

Very good point. It's really hard for anyone to put together a long-term plan and stick with it because long-term plans don't often satisfy short-term desires. This is magnified for public figures, who not only have their own wants, but also those of the masses.

[Thurston Fluff]

I've seen the argument that standing pat is the easy thing to do, the safe thing, even the "cowardly" thing to do. That DS doesn't have the guts to make moves. I would say it's the other way around: Making these trades is easy. It's what the mainstream fans and mainstream media wants. It's what the owner wants. It feeds the perception that action, any action, is a sign of strength. The hardest thing to do is sometimes to do nothing. To have patience. To stick to your convictions, stick to your plans. That's not to mention the short memories of anyone questioning DS guts. He non-tendered the reigning NL HR champion. To make space for a guy who left for Korea because he couldn't hack it in the majors.

 

Very good point. It's really hard for anyone to put together a long-term plan and stick with it because long-term plans don't often satisfy short-term desires. This is magnified for public figures, who not only have their own wants, but also those of the masses.

 

Agreed. We need look no further than Ted Thomson's approach to free agency to see how action, any action, is easier than no action.

[LouisEly]

Baseball is a long season, full of ups and downs. It's the middle of the summer, it's hot, players are tired, and when it's the dog days of summer it's easy to not get fired up for games.

 

If you don't think that the Cubs acquisitions fired their team up a little bit... then I don't think you've ever been in a leadership role where you've managed a group of people trying to accomplish a goal. I'll bet it absolutely fired up the Cubs players, and I'll bet that the Brewers were wondering a little bit what help they were going to get. Maybe it made a difference, maybe it didn't, but I'll bet that Cubs clubhouse absolutely was fired up when they found out they got Quintana. The players don't give a damn about prospects that may or may not pan out 2-4 years from now because they might not be around then. What motivates people is what is tangible in the present.

 

If you don't think that there is an emotional and psychological effect on performance, especially over a six month period of time, then you don't understand people.

[NYChez]

Wilson's WHIP with the Cubs is over 2.

[adambr2]

Stearns definitely came out looking better in his pen deadline deals for Jeffress and Swarzek than the Cubs did for Wilson, as Swarzak has been great and Jeffress perfectly serviceable for us and we gave up very little.

 

My only criticism, if you even want to call it that, is the impact that Pat Neshek could have had on this race. I don't normally advocate bidding wars, but the bidding was so low for him, (the Phillies took 3 lottery tickets), that a better package for us might have been Carlos Herrera, Braden Webb, and Troy Stokes.

 

The Phillies also threw in some cash to get the prospects they did, while I'm sure we would have been willing to absorb the rest of Neshek's salary to sweeten the pot. Even if we would have had to do a little bit better than that, we're not talking about giving up any top prospects.

 

That's one way we could have significantly impacted the race without going all in on a guy like Gray or Quintana. Don't get me wrong, Stearns did well at the deadline. But Knebel, Hader, Neshek and Swarzek as your top 4 finishing games since the end of the July likely makes the difference right now between being 1.5 down and 1.5 up, especially since it would have kept Neshek away from the team we're battling.

[pacopete4]

 

That's one way we could have significantly impacted the race without going all in on a guy like Gray or Quintana. Don't get me wrong, Stearns did well at the deadline. But Knebel, Hader, Neshek and Swarzek as your top 4 finishing games since the end of the July likely makes the difference right now between being 1.5 down and 1.5 up, especially since it would have kept Neshek away from the team we're battling.

 

Agreed adambr2. He has done so many great things already as the GM of the Brewers and it's very exciting to see but this is one area that could have really helped the Brewers lock down or move towards a playoff spot. I will say though that sometimes the fit of a player is more important. I mean a guy like Wilson in CHI or Jeffress in TEX are great examples of good pitchers but most likely not fitting into whatever those organizations are doing. So I guess I see both sides where if we did sign Neshek, he could've sucked for us just like Wilson is doing for CHI. But he also could've been great. Just so many variables. All I hope for is that Stearns and co. put a lot more into the bullpen coming next season. Too many guys this year were just thrown out there to see what sticks. That's where this mess really started.

[OnaBadger58]

Agreed adambr2. He has done so many great things already as the GM of the Brewers and it's very exciting to see but this is one area that could have really helped the Brewers lock down or move towards a playoff spot. I will say though that sometimes the fit of a player is more important. I mean a guy like Wilson in CHI or Jeffress in TEX are great examples of good pitchers but most likely not fitting into whatever those organizations are doing. So I guess I see both sides where if we did sign Neshek, he could've sucked for us just like Wilson is doing for CHI. But he also could've been great. Just so many variables. All I hope for is that Stearns and co. put a lot more into the bullpen coming next season. Too many guys this year were just thrown out there to see what sticks. That's where this mess really started.

 

Can't argue the fact that the bullpen to start the season was a huge mess, but I have no issue with how Stearns went about it. In the "rebuild" position the Brewers were/are in, there didn't seem to be a need to spend money that part of the team. Feliz was taken in hopes to become a deadline deal. Had he known that this team would even sniff contention, the bullpen would have been constructed differently. I would expect this offseason the BP will be a much higher priority.

[pacopete4]

Agreed adambr2. He has done so many great things already as the GM of the Brewers and it's very exciting to see but this is one area that could have really helped the Brewers lock down or move towards a playoff spot. I will say though that sometimes the fit of a player is more important. I mean a guy like Wilson in CHI or Jeffress in TEX are great examples of good pitchers but most likely not fitting into whatever those organizations are doing. So I guess I see both sides where if we did sign Neshek, he could've sucked for us just like Wilson is doing for CHI. But he also could've been great. Just so many variables. All I hope for is that Stearns and co. put a lot more into the bullpen coming next season. Too many guys this year were just thrown out there to see what sticks. That's where this mess really started.

 

Can't argue the fact that the bullpen to start the season was a huge mess, but I have no issue with how Stearns went about it. In the "rebuild" position the Brewers were/are in, there didn't seem to be a need to spend money that part of the team. Feliz was taken in hopes to become a deadline deal. Had he known that this team would even sniff contention, the bullpen would have been constructed differently. I would expect this offseason the BP will be a much higher priority.

 

Yeah, I can get on board with that thinking. I just hate wasted seasons. I mean, I get it, we are/were "rebuilding" and so it is pretty easy to just punt the season but baseball is a crazy game (as we see this season) and the right mixture of players etc... can go on and find themselves in a playoff hunt. Hopefully, this is thought about more in the future when thinking about offseason needs. That's all I'm really asking for with it. Either way, it was good to see this addressed as they further moved through the season. It would have been nice to do it earlier but that just doesn't seem to be the way the trade market plays itself out these days.