Ian Kinsler

[JosephC]

Good chance that Hiura's bat will be ready in the 2019 season. But has he played 1 inning of defense since the Brewers drafted him?

[OnaBadger58]

Hiura's elbow injury slowed him down a bit. There is no way that he would have started in the AZL league if he hadn't had it. I would think he'd be in Carolina right now, so if his bat is that advanced and his defense is serviceable, I don't think it's a strecth to think he'll be on the Brewers 2019 team by June.

[And That]

Good chance that Hiura's bat will be ready in the 2019 season. But has he played 1 inning of defense since the Brewers drafted him?

No - he's on a throwing program and at last report was said to be ready to get in the field by the middle of August. I assume he'll get extensive work in the field in fall instructionals as well, if not the Arizona Fall League.

[rickh150]

Good chance that Hiura's bat will be ready in the 2019 season. But has he played 1 inning of defense since the Brewers drafted him?

No - he's on a throwing program and at last report was said to be ready to get in the field by the middle of August. I assume he'll get extensive work in the field in fall instructionals as well, if not the Arizona Fall League.

 

Huh? He is just hitting? DH at A levels?

[MrTPlush]

Good chance that Hiura's bat will be ready in the 2019 season. But has he played 1 inning of defense since the Brewers drafted him?

No - he's on a throwing program and at last report was said to be ready to get in the field by the middle of August. I assume he'll get extensive work in the field in fall instructionals as well, if not the Arizona Fall League.

 

Huh? He is just hitting? DH at A levels?

 

Correct, until AA.

[JohnBriggs12]

Good chance that Hiura's bat will be ready in the 2019 season. But has he played 1 inning of defense since the Brewers drafted him?

 

There is a good chance is bat is ready right now. He could be the most ready to hit player drafted by the Brewers since Molitor. To refresh everyone's memory Molitor played all of 64 minor league games, all in the Midwest League the year he was drafted, and hit .346/.457/.504. He was in starting lineup for Brewers on opening day the next season and never looked back. Hiura's hitting .375/.416/.542 in that same league.

 

Guy's a natural hitter. Much like Molitor was.

[Devinep]

Yeah if a hall of famer can do it let's figure others can do it.

[JohnBriggs12]

Yeah if a hall of famer can do it let's figure others can do it.

 

Nobody knew Molitor was a future Hall of Famer in 1977. Nobody. The way the Brewers franchise works today, Molitor would have likely not been seen in Milwaukee until 81 or 82.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

If Hiura can even play a Rickie Weeks-level 2B, it appears his bat is going to play. I like that pick more and more. A high-OBP table setter in the #2 hole in the line-up is exactly what this line-up needs. If he continues to hit, and gets his defense squared away, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see him in Milwaukee sometime in 2018. His early production is what Corey Ray should be doing.

[KeithStone53151]

Yeah if a hall of famer can do it let's figure others can do it.

 

Nobody knew Molitor was a future Hall of Famer in 1977. Nobody. The way the Brewers franchise works today, Molitor would have likely not been seen in Milwaukee until 81 or 82.

 

I can't remember us drafting a player that was legitimately ready to walk out onto an MLB field day 1. Can you? Braun had defensive issues. Weeks had defensive issues. Fielder made it up in a couple years as a HS pick at age 21. Arcia made it at 21 more recently. The Brewers tend to be fairly aggressive with prospects, this comment makes 0 sense to me.

[KeithStone53151]

Hiura will be our starting 2b come 2019 - We need someone for next season - Villar hasn't proven a whole lot.

 

Next season - Villar cane fill in for Kinsler at 2b and Arcia at SS

 

Keston Hiura is going to fly through 3 levels next year and be ready for 2019? I love Hiura and think he can move fast, but penciling him in is jumping the gun. He is mashing A ball pitching as a college draftee. His numbers are almost meaningless.

 

It's far too early to project him to MLB. I think we'll all have a much better feel in May or June next year and have a better shot at accurately projecting MLB arrival. In theory we will have seen a couple months of both his defense and how he handles A+ and or AA pitching by then. You also will have seen a couple months of Villar at MLB and Dubon at AAA.

[Boomer5]

Absurd that we are even thinking of trading for an expensive 35 year old 2B when Stearns wanted to extend Villar in spring and dumped Scooter and his 900 OPS for nothing less than 5 months ago.

 

Just fast track Hiura and use DeJesus Jr/Dubon to stop gap until he is ready.

 

Wrong! Scooter's 2016 OPS was .728. No one, and I mean NO ONE could have seen the kind of numbers he's putting up this year. Hindsight is 20/20 though, I guess.

 

No one? So our management team is off the hook for begging Villar to take $20M and dumping the better player who was making $2M. How do you reconcile those two decisions?

 

This wasn't hindsight by Briggs and me. This was a really bad decision and one that has cost the Brewers dearly. The argument was he couldn't be a run producer and could only play 2nd Base. So now to make up for a ridiculous move, the Brewers will have to trade a prospect and pick up a much larger contract for a guy who can only play 2nd base.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Absurd that we are even thinking of trading for an expensive 35 year old 2B when Stearns wanted to extend Villar in spring and dumped Scooter and his 900 OPS for nothing less than 5 months ago.

 

Just fast track Hiura and use DeJesus Jr/Dubon to stop gap until he is ready.

 

Wrong! Scooter's 2016 OPS was .728. No one, and I mean NO ONE could have seen the kind of numbers he's putting up this year. Hindsight is 20/20 though, I guess.

 

No one? So our management team is off the hook for begging Villar to take $20M and dumping the better player who was making $2M. How do you reconcile those two decisions?

 

This wasn't hindsight by Briggs and me. This was a really bad decision and one that has cost the Brewers dearly. The argument was he couldn't be a run producer and could only play 2nd Base. So now to make up for a ridiculous move, the Brewers will have to trade a prospect and pick up a much larger contract for a guy who can only play 2nd base.

 

Villar, for all his bonehead baserunning errors and shoddy fielding at SS, had the look of a future superstar last year. I suppose the argument could be made that the Brewers should have sold Villar high and stuck with Scooter at 2B, but I doubt that you'd find many front office folks that considered Gennett the better of the two players. Now maybe, but in March/April of this year? No way.

[Humans Need Water]

Yeah if a hall of famer can do it let's figure others can do it.

 

Nobody knew Molitor was a future Hall of Famer in 1977. Nobody. The way the Brewers franchise works today, Molitor would have likely not been seen in Milwaukee until 81 or 82.

So Stearns would have drafted Molitor with the 3rd overall pick in 77 then had him spend full seasons in A, A+, AA, AAA from 78-81 then had him up in Milwaukee in 81 or 82?

 

Please provide one factual example of Stearns acting in this manner.

 

On the other hand I'll provide factual examples of how he's between aggressive and super aggressive with moving prospects.

5yrs+ young for level - Arcia, Hader

4yrs+ young for level - Woodruff (MLB otherwise 2yrs+), Dubon (Santana and Davies both land here too)

3yrs+ young for level - Brinson, Ortiz, Phillips, Peralta, Feliciano, Derby

2yrs+ young for level - Burnes, Lutz, Clark, Diplan, Nottingham, Monte, Herrera, Bickford (next year in AA)

1.5yr+ young for level - Diaz, Kodi, Gatewood, Supak, Yamamoto (Hiura is 1.2)

 

I'm sure there are others but those are just the Top 30 and I didn't even include the bottom few players

[wildcat2237]

Stearns worships versatility.

 

Scooter had no versatility.

 

Stearns was going to jettison Scooter one way or the other. Scooter was not a "Stearns guy."

 

My problem with the Scooter transaction is that Stearns just gave him away. I never thought Scooter had huge value, but I do think he was worth one or two lower level lottery tickets (think the Lind trade). With the Brewers not planning to compete there was no reason just to DFA Scooter.

 

To this point the Scooter transaction and Corey Ray pick look like Stearns sole black marks.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Stearns worships versatility.

 

Scooter had no versatility.

 

Stearns was going to jettison Scooter one way or the other. Scooter was not a "Stearns guy."

 

My problem with the Scooter transaction is that Stearns just gave him away. I never thought Scooter had huge value, but I do think he was worth one or two lower level lottery tickets (think the Lind trade). With the Brewers not planning to compete there was no reason just to DFA Scooter.

 

To this point the Scooter transaction and Corey Ray pick look like Stearns sole black marks.

 

Neftali Feliz was a pretty big waste of $5 million as well. Knebel should have been handed the closer's role from the get-go. The fact that they just dumped Scooter puzzled me as well, especially when you look at the kind of junk middle infielders out there that teams regularly give up value for.

[chuckiehacks]

Stearns worships versatility.

 

Scooter had no versatility.

 

Stearns was going to jettison Scooter one way or the other. Scooter was not a "Stearns guy."

 

My problem with the Scooter transaction is that Stearns just gave him away. I never thought Scooter had huge value, but I do think he was worth one or two lower level lottery tickets (think the Lind trade). With the Brewers not planning to compete there was no reason just to DFA Scooter.

 

So let me get this straight...Stearns had no intention of keeping Scooter on the roster, and decided to just DFA him without even trying to trade him? Wouldn't the more likely scenario be that 29 other GMs viewed Scooter the same way - as a platoon, 2B-only player that was not worth giving up anything?

[Humans Need Water]

This wasn't hindsight by Briggs and me. This was a really bad decision and one that has cost the Brewers dearly. The argument was he couldn't be a run producer and could only play 2nd Base. So now to make up for a ridiculous move, the Brewers will have to trade a prospect and pick up a much larger contract for a guy who can only play 2nd base.

Is this serious? It's been how many months and you both still have no idea why Scooter isn't here anymore. Just mind boggling and even potentially mind bottling. Wasn't hindsight for the both of you? Yeah, because you both thought Scooter was either better than Villar or that Villar would be performing to this level this year. My goodness.

 

No, the argument wasn't, in part, that he couldn't be a run producer. He was gone because Arcia was given the reigns at SS, which shifted Villar to 2b. Villar's 2016 season at the age of 25, with 4yrs of cheap control left too while being a switch hitter and also being versatile defensively, absolutely destroyed anything Scooter's ever done to that point. Scooter was going to the bench immediately. On the bench, he was competing with Perez (literally plays every position, is a better hitter, better on the bases, younger and outperformed him the previous 2yrs) and Aguilar (lot of AAA success, power and smashed it in spring). Combine that with Thames being back in the states for the first time in 3yrs so if he stumbled you'd have Aguilar. (lefty/righty combo too). Kirk was the 4th OF because he could play all 3 spots well and was a lefty to boot.

 

Scooter is a 2b and a last resort between LF/RF/3b (hence a combined 20 games played there for the 4th worst team - which is the only reason he's playing there).

 

So yeah, when factoring in all that in March/April 2017 when the decision was made, it absolutely made all the sense in the world to move on from Scooter. And Stearns tried to trade him and zero GMs bit on him not even offering one garbage prospect. ZERO. And while the GMs knew he wasn't going to make the team, based on the aforementioned above, they knew he'd be claimed. Yet not one GM still stepped up to offer garbage to make sure Scooter didn't get DFA'd where they'd most likely not have a chance to claim him.

 

Sogard essentially took Kirk's role and has been very good overall for a couple months (Sogard/Perez have combined to play 2 full months at 2b putting up excellent numbers too). The reality of this is Scooter is playing out of his @ss this year so I'm sure you'll both be silent when he crashes back to reality moving forward.

 

Finally, provide evidence that Scooter would be replicating his exact numbers if he was still here (I look forward to your usage of his 2014-2016 stats as a full time player to indicate the trend of his 2017 performance).

 

If Perez is starting at 2b right now full time putting up his typical numbers then it would be better than having the 2015/2016 versions of Scooter. That said - where's the problem with that scenario since you both have thought highly of Scooter for years?

[Ennder]

I see a lot of results oriented thinking in here and that is not a good way to evaluate a trade. Feliz's velocity was up and he pitched well last season. There was a really solid thought process behind giving him a small one season deal. A move that didn't work isn't always a bad move. Feliz is nowhere near a black mark against Stearns. Not every move is going to work out.

 

Nothing Scooter has ever done in his career suggested something like what he did this season was coming, he even said it surprises him. This is just a random breakout that nobody can see coming. They had two players they liked more than Scooter so there just wasn't room for him. You can send him to AAA and eat his cash or release him, either are totally viable. I'm sure Scooter asked for the release if he was given any sort of choice in the matter. A poor defensive platoon 2B coming off of a basically replacement level season has no trade value at all so trading him was never really an option.

 

Corey Ray is just way too early to tell yet. He doesn't even have 600 PA in the minors yet and a lot of times college hitters are behind the age curve because the college game is played so differently than the majors.

[Outlander]

Results oriented is the best way to evaluate a trade/signing/draft pick. Ultimately results is the difference between getting fired or getting an extension and why they get paid the big bucks. Doesn't matter that most of us would have gotten rid of Scooter, in the end it was a bad move by Stearns.

[Ennder]

Results oriented is the best way to evaluate a trade/signing/draft pick. Ultimately results is the difference between getting fired or getting an extension and why they get paid the big bucks. Doesn't matter that most of us would have gotten rid of Scooter, in the end it was a bad move by Stearns.

 

 

Its an awful way to evaluate a trade. If we trade Travis Shaw tomorrow for Asdrubal Cabrera it is a bad deal even if Shaw has a season ending injury the next day. The process matters, the results are so variable that a good 50% of them are out of the GMs hands.

[logan82]

Gennett was and still is a platoon player who plays below average defense and has only one more year of control after this year. Even in hindsight there wasn't a compelling reason to keep him. It was a much better move to go with someone with upside. It would have been nice to trade him for something but other than that I can find little fault with getting rid of him.

[JosephC]

I had been a pretty big Kinsler supporter but am now thinking the biggest upgrade to the lineup wouldn't necessarily be to find a better bat at second base, but a better bat to hit #1 in the lineup. Not sure if Kinsler's .325 OBP would be what I'm looking for.

[bill hAll Star]

Results are obviously the way that a GM needs to be judged in the end, but luckily, the window of time is large enough that Stearns will make enough moves that the process will be shown in the results at a high clip.

 

I'm not going to waste my time telling myself or beating the drum that dropping Scooter or signing Feliz were bad moves. The process was right even if the results were wrong (Scooter is coming back down to earth this month - might end up not being the end of the world).

 

Without the type of process to take financial risks on guys with superior talent but injury or track record issues like Feliz, we'd not have Thames. This is good/great process. I hope we sign another flamethrower for $5 million next year and see if he can figure it out.

 

Same with Scooter. It isn't just that Stearns "loves versatility" but Scooter is truly not good on defense at any position other than 2B and he's an OK corner outfielder. Given that knowledge, Villar had shown he was a better hitter at the time than Scooter and therefore was fine for 2B rendering Scooter useless as an above-average hitting utility IF that was very, very bad at 3B (we didn't need OF) and therefore he was not necessary anymore.

 

Again, that process was sound. We didn't know that Scooter was going to do this or that Villar was going to collapse. I'm not sure a scout or GM in the world would have predicted this before the season.

 

It's still very possible that Scooter is a slightly improved hitter but remains a poor defender at every position but 2B going forward, still justifying Stearns' decision. His ISO is up and that is basically the difference between now and the past. Is it because he's a launch angle guy now adding more HR or is it just some luck that he's had some wall scrapers at equally/better HR park of GABP? We'll find out. He's been pretty bad this past month.

 

If Scooter is now an .800 OPS hitter (previously .750 with the Brewers) that has to be shielded from LHP and can only play 2B at an average level...is that something that you would want on the Brewers going forward?

 

Also, to add: "I don't mind letting Scooter go but I did have an issue with not getting anything for him in a trade" pretty much proves why Stearns' process was right at the time. I'm sure they shopped him, but given that teams knew that the Brewers would be starting Villar at 2B coupled with the fact that most other teams did not covet Gennett show you that his value around the league was quite low and that nobody would have traded for him.

[logan82]

It's really only a mimor quibble that we didn't get anything for Scooter. I am sure they shopped him.