Ian Kinsler

[Humans Need Water]

Why on Earth would the the Detroit Tigers do

this? To save $11M? Wishful thinking.

 

Tigers want to dump salary & get younger while not losing ability to compete. Verlander & Kinsler are aging, production has dropped, and they eat a ton of salary. They are out of contention this season so sell off some old expensive assets to give you flexibility in the off season to work with.

 

I could see Villar going to Detroit & getting hot again like he was last year. He has that ability to be that player.

I agree with you that it makes sense for Detroit to want to do that. But how does that scenario make sense on the Brewers end?

 

Lets say that next year Villar gets going again and produces something remotely similar to his 2016 (could even be 15-20pts less across the board) - he'll hit 16HR+ with 40SB+ and have 2yrs of control left. Wouldn't it put us in a much better position long-term to keep him and flip him after next year for a good return instead of trading him now for 2 months of Kinsler and an aging Verlander who's owed an absurd amount of money, has a no trade clause so probably won't get moved and eats a rotation spot when we have 3yrs of Nelson/Chase, 4yrs of Davies/Guerra, 6yrs of Hader/Woodruff + Ortiz/Burnes ready by the end of next year.

[brewmann04]

wonder if DS will work an Aug trade

[rickh150]

Why on Earth would the the Detroit Tigers do

this? To save $11M? Wishful thinking.

 

Tigers want to dump salary & get younger while not losing ability to compete. Verlander & Kinsler are aging, production has dropped, and they eat a ton of salary. They are out of contention this season so sell off some old expensive assets to give you flexibility in the off season to work with.

 

I could see Villar going to Detroit & getting hot again like he was last year. He has that ability to be that player.

I agree with you that it makes sense for Detroit to want to do that. But how does that scenario make sense on the Brewers end?

 

Lets say that next year Villar gets going again and produces something remotely similar to his 2016 (could even be 15-20pts less across the board) - he'll hit 16HR+ with 40SB+ and have 2yrs of control left. Wouldn't it put us in a much better position long-term to keep him and flip him after next year for a good return instead of trading him now for 2 months of Kinsler and an aging Verlander who's owed an absurd amount of money, has a no trade clause so probably won't get moved and eats a rotation spot when we have 3yrs of Nelson/Chase, 4yrs of Davies/Guerra, 6yrs of Hader/Woodruff + Ortiz/Burnes ready by the end of next year.

 

Maybe Villar is pretty bad forever and Kinsler could help us get to the playoffs.

[Humans Need Water]

Tigers want to dump salary & get younger while not losing ability to compete. Verlander & Kinsler are aging, production has dropped, and they eat a ton of salary. They are out of contention this season so sell off some old expensive assets to give you flexibility in the off season to work with.

 

I could see Villar going to Detroit & getting hot again like he was last year. He has that ability to be that player.

I agree with you that it makes sense for Detroit to want to do that. But how does that scenario make sense on the Brewers end?

 

Lets say that next year Villar gets going again and produces something remotely similar to his 2016 (could even be 15-20pts less across the board) - he'll hit 16HR+ with 40SB+ and have 2yrs of control left. Wouldn't it put us in a much better position long-term to keep him and flip him after next year for a good return instead of trading him now for 2 months of Kinsler and an aging Verlander who's owed an absurd amount of money, has a no trade clause so probably won't get moved and eats a rotation spot when we have 3yrs of Nelson/Chase, 4yrs of Davies/Guerra, 6yrs of Hader/Woodruff + Ortiz/Burnes ready by the end of next year.

 

Maybe Villar is pretty bad forever and Kinsler could help us get to the playoffs.

Possibly (regarding Villar). Very doubtful (regarding Kinsler). Villar's 2015/2016 being improvements on his prior 2yrs, his current age and his ability can pretty easily allow someone to make the case he'll bounce back to being a productive starting middle IF moving forward. He also had to put in extra work getting used to 2b this year while also missing a lot of spring training with sporadic/limited playing time in the WBC.

 

You think Villar potentially could be pretty bad forever so why don't you think it's possible that Kinsler could continue to decline the rest of this season like he's done? Outside of June, Kinsler has slashed 237/317/664 this year. As pathetic as that is, it's an upgrade to Villar. But it still absolutely sucks. Giving up a 26yr old Villar with 3yrs of control left for 2 months of that most likely isn't going to put this team over the hump. I get people wanting Villar to have limited playing time the next 2 months and if Stearns wants to acquire Kinsler then fine, but trading Villar to do so is absurd and that's been my point.

 

And I think it's ridiculous that people loved Sogard all year but since he's struggled in his 6 starts, since missing 3wks with an injury, he's immediately become the mediocre journeyman he's always been. Whichever way the wind is blowing that day I guess...

[rickh150]

Kinsler's defense is better than about any 2B.... still. I can't find the defensive metrics used before, but it had him as tops this season. Kinsler walks at a decent rate. Kinsler doesn't strike out at a major rate, like the rest of our lineup. He is a true veteran, and we don't have many of those. Even when he is not hitting well, it beats Villar's putrid rates...... 178 avg leading off an inning. .242 OBP leading off inning.

 

Really, I guess I am done with Villar. We can't send him down without exposing him to other teams (out of options), yet it's time to leave. I'd like to see how Dejesus and Dubon would do here, or even stick Perez at 2B for more at bats. I couldn't' stand Villar last year because of his inexcusable baserunning (unforced errors taking extra base regardless of outs/situation) even though his stats were great. It ticks me off that guys are flying up and down from AAA to majors and back at warp speed, but good ol Villar plays fairly regular, leading off many a game.

[rickh150]

You think Villar potentially could be pretty bad forever so why don't you think it's possible that Kinsler could continue to decline the rest of this season like he's done? Outside of June, Kinsler has slashed 237/317/664 this year. As pathetic as that is, it's an upgrade to Villar. But it still absolutely sucks. Giving up a 26yr old Villar with 3yrs of control left for 2 months of that most likely isn't going to put this team over the hump. I get people wanting Villar to have limited playing time the next 2 months and if Stearns wants to acquire Kinsler then fine, but trading Villar to do so is absurd and that's been my point.

 

And I think it's ridiculous that people loved Sogard all year but since he's struggled in his 6 starts, since missing 3wks with an injury, he's immediately become the mediocre journeyman he's always been. Whichever way the wind is blowing that day I guess...

 

 

 

 

Sogard/Kinsler are short term fixes. I never thought these guys were going to be the 2B for the next 6 years. I would like to see this tandem there thru 2018, however, until guys like Diaz or Dubon are ready. Right now, They play better defense then Villar, make more contact, walk more, and now they are hitting considerably better than Villar while both are slumping!

 

What you are doing by leaving Villar in is saying to the rest of the team, "Villar might be better at some point. We are going to roll with him. Yet, the majority of you guys actually need to play fairly well or you're heading back to AAA." Meanwhile we have Dejesus hitting .360 at AAA who can't get a call-up. Everyone else plays well at AAA ( well, Wren has gotten screwed too) and can expect a call-up, but since Villar might turn it around in a year or two, we have to see this crappy play at leadoff for the majority of the season.

 

Furthermore, I guess I could be convinced to let him stay part time in the lineup and at 2B if he hit 8th or 9th the rest of the year, and if we were willing to pinch hit for him (Has this ever happened?) in late inning situations. But, I am ready to move on... if he has value, trade him in August for spare parts.

[rickh150]

This still could happen.... straight up swap for Villar.

 

Assuming both players would clear revocable waivers, which is doubtful.

 

One would need to clear, the other could be claimed by Brewers/Tigers.

[adambr2]

And I think it's ridiculous that people loved Sogard all year but since he's struggled in his 6 starts, since missing 3wks with an injury, he's immediately become the mediocre journeyman he's always been. Whichever way the wind is blowing that day I guess...

 

People loved Sogard all year? I'm sure they loved his production but I recall many people saying to enjoy it while it lasts because he'd he very likely to revert back to career norms.

[adambr2]

This still could happen.... straight up swap for Villar.

 

Assuming both players would clear revocable waivers, which is doubtful.

 

One would need to clear, the other could be claimed by Brewers/Tigers.

 

Villar isn't going to clear waivers. At his age, cost, and prior production, some team would take a shot. Possible he could make it to the Tigers on the wire, but I doubt it. 6 other teams would have a crack at him first right now.

[Humans Need Water]

Kinsler's defense is better than about any 2B.... still. I can't find the defensive metrics used before, but it had him as tops this season. Kinsler walks at a decent rate. Kinsler doesn't strike out at a major rate, like the rest of our lineup. He is a true veteran, and we don't have many of those. Even when he is not hitting well, it beats Villar's putrid rates...... 178 avg leading off an inning. .242 OBP leading off inning.

 

Really, I guess I am done with Villar. We can't send him down without exposing him to other teams (out of options), yet it's time to leave. I'd like to see how Dejesus and Dubon would do here, or even stick Perez at 2B for more at bats. I couldn't' stand Villar last year because of his inexcusable baserunning (unforced errors taking extra base regardless of outs/situation) even though his stats were great. It ticks me off that guys are flying up and down from AAA to majors and back at warp speed, but good ol Villar plays fairly regular, leading off many a game.

So, in a nutshell, you refuse to take an objective stance on this overall situation (big picture thinking) because your opinion of Villar is emotional in nature.

 

They both hit leadoff the vast majority of the time. In the leadoff spot Villar is slashing 232/290/663 and Kinsler 244/323/710. Again, I ask, how is trading 3yrs of a cheap, controlled Villar for 2 months of Kinsler a significant upgrade to boost us into the playoffs, especially when factoring in what we can get in return for Villar if he rebounds next year? And I absolutely believe he'll rebound next year; maybe not to his 2016 levels but he without question has the ability to easily be a top 10 producing MLB 2b where only Dee Gordon rivals is speed on the bases and maybe a handful have his power too (and he's a switch hitter).

 

Defensive metrics don't even take into account a player shifting. They're based upon someone playing straight up and the Brewers are in like the top 3 for teams that shift. Not saying Kinsler isn't better defensively than Villar, because he clearly is much better, but defensive metrics are far from being accurate. And how often is his defense going to impact the game over a 2 month span? Haven't heard many complaints about Villar's defense since April.

 

De Jesus is a 30yr old who's had very limited success at the MLB level - he's nothing but org depth. Decisions are based on a myriad of variables. Dubon has 31 games in AAA. If Brinson or Phillips aren't getting every day PT in CF over Broxton then there's no way Dubon is over Villar/Sogard/Perez. Perez is great playing 2-3x per week and gets much worse when playing full time. Villar has a much bigger upside than all these guys and he's 26 - that's why he gets the leash, that's why he's still in the lineup. Because he's performing terribly this year means we should throw all his potential into the garbage can for 2 months of a 35yr old who is barely outperforming him offensively in the leadoff spot?

 

Nobody was talking about making a trade for a position player - it was all about Quintana/Gray and pen arms. Then once Quintana/Gray were over there was a rumor involving Kinsler then everybody piles on Villar/Sogard. Again, whichever way the wind blows on any given day...

[Humans Need Water]

And I think it's ridiculous that people loved Sogard all year but since he's struggled in his 6 starts, since missing 3wks with an injury, he's immediately become the mediocre journeyman he's always been. Whichever way the wind is blowing that day I guess...

 

People loved Sogard all year? I'm sure they loved his production but I recall many people saying to enjoy it while it lasts because he'd he very likely to revert back to career norms.

Was that the general consensus at the end of May? End of June? Beginning of July? No. It was within the first 10 days of his performance.

[FVBrewerFan]

And I think it's ridiculous that people loved Sogard all year but since he's struggled in his 6 starts, since missing 3wks with an injury, he's immediately become the mediocre journeyman he's always been. Whichever way the wind is blowing that day I guess...

 

People loved Sogard all year? I'm sure they loved his production but I recall many people saying to enjoy it while it lasts because he'd he very likely to revert back to career norms.

Was that the general consensus at the end of May? End of June? Beginning of July? No. It was within the first 10 days of his performance.

 

To be fair, there were lots of people saying this continually in the IGTs and elsewhere, not just the first 10 days. General consensus was enjoy it while it lasts, could last a week or two months, who knows.

 

But yea, it is comical that somehow Kinsler was supposed to be the bridge between where we are now and winning the WS.

[MrTPlush]

Who has the worst record right now? Because that would be the team claiming Villar. Said team could easily just throw him on the bench and trade him in the offseason for something decent if they don't actually have a spot for him.

[jerichoholicninja]

Detroit and Atlanta are tied right now so they would be claiming either 8th or 9th, not sure what breaks ties. The worst records are Philly, SF, and White Sox. All seem to be pretty set in the infield, either in the majors or AAA. Then is Oakland, Cincy, and San Diego. Villar doesn't seem like a Beane type player, but I could see Cincinnati and certainly San Diego claiming him.

[KCBrewerfan34]

No way Villar passes thru waivers, he's too cheap for someone not to take a chance.

[mlloyd10]

Am i seeing that both players have to clear waivers? I thought Kinsler could be clamed by Brewers and then the teams could work out a trade - So Brewers could trade Villar for Kinsler

[Humans Need Water]

Was that the general consensus at the end of May? End of June? Beginning of July? No. It was within the first 10 days of his performance.

 

To be fair, there were lots of people saying this continually in the IGTs and elsewhere, not just the first 10 days. General consensus was enjoy it while it lasts, could last a week or two months, who knows.

 

But yea, it is comical that somehow Kinsler was supposed to be the bridge between where we are now and winning the WS.

Then I stand corrected as I never go in the in-game thread (assuming that's what that means)

[rickh150]

Kinsler's defense is better than about any 2B.... still. I can't find the defensive metrics used before, but it had him as tops this season. Kinsler walks at a decent rate. Kinsler doesn't strike out at a major rate, like the rest of our lineup. He is a true veteran, and we don't have many of those. Even when he is not hitting well, it beats Villar's putrid rates...... 178 avg leading off an inning. .242 OBP leading off inning.

 

Really, I guess I am done with Villar. We can't send him down without exposing him to other teams (out of options), yet it's time to leave. I'd like to see how Dejesus and Dubon would do here, or even stick Perez at 2B for more at bats. I couldn't' stand Villar last year because of his inexcusable baserunning (unforced errors taking extra base regardless of outs/situation) even though his stats were great. It ticks me off that guys are flying up and down from AAA to majors and back at warp speed, but good ol Villar plays fairly regular, leading off many a game.

So, in a nutshell, you refuse to take an objective stance on this overall situation (big picture thinking) because your opinion of Villar is emotional in nature.

 

They both hit leadoff the vast majority of the time. In the leadoff spot Villar is slashing 232/290/663 and Kinsler 244/323/710. Again, I ask, how is trading 3yrs of a cheap, controlled Villar for 2 months of Kinsler a significant upgrade to boost us into the playoffs, especially when factoring in what we can get in return for Villar if he rebounds next year? And I absolutely believe he'll rebound next year; maybe not to his 2016 levels but he without question has the ability to easily be a top 10 producing MLB 2b where only Dee Gordon rivals is speed on the bases and maybe a handful have his power too (and he's a switch hitter).

 

Defensive metrics don't even take into account a player shifting. They're based upon someone playing straight up and the Brewers are in like the top 3 for teams that shift. Not saying Kinsler isn't better defensively than Villar, because he clearly is much better, but defensive metrics are far from being accurate. And how often is his defense going to impact the game over a 2 month span? Haven't heard many complaints about Villar's defense since April.

 

De Jesus is a 30yr old who's had very limited success at the MLB level - he's nothing but org depth. Decisions are based on a myriad of variables. Dubon has 31 games in AAA. If Brinson or Phillips aren't getting every day PT in CF over Broxton then there's no way Dubon is over Villar/Sogard/Perez. Perez is great playing 2-3x per week and gets much worse when playing full time. Villar has a much bigger upside than all these guys and he's 26 - that's why he gets the leash, that's why he's still in the lineup. Because he's performing terribly this year means we should throw all his potential into the garbage can for 2 months of a 35yr old who is barely outperforming him offensively in the leadoff spot?

 

Nobody was talking about making a trade for a position player - it was all about Quintana/Gray and pen arms. Then once Quintana/Gray were over there was a rumor involving Kinsler then everybody piles on Villar/Sogard. Again, whichever way the wind blows on any given day...

 

Again, I wanted to trade for Kinsler.... early, like at the height of our winning against Phillies at home! The wind was blowing the same direction for me that day as it is now. Villar is a fairly dumb (baserunning instinct wise) player, who is not steady in the field( albeit it is his first year at 2B), who strikes out way too much without taking a different approach with two strikes. He is NOT looking simply to get on base in the leadoff position. He is swinging 2-0 and 3-1 when really with his crappy hitting should be taking a pitch to maximize his value of getting on base and stealing a bag....242 OBP leading off an inning. My guess is that OBP would be roughly the same if he never took the bat off his shoulder! I don't like hating here.. I still want the man to succeed and help us win. Yet, other guys can do a better job in my opinion. I complained about him last year too when he was hitting well so I guess I just don't like his skill set.

[rickh150]

Kinsler's defense is better than about any 2B.... still. I can't find the defensive metrics used before, but it had him as tops this season. Kinsler walks at a decent rate. Kinsler doesn't strike out at a major rate, like the rest of our lineup. He is a true veteran, and we don't have many of those. Even when he is not hitting well, it beats Villar's putrid rates...... 178 avg leading off an inning. .242 OBP leading off inning.

 

Really, I guess I am done with Villar. We can't send him down without exposing him to other teams (out of options), yet it's time to leave. I'd like to see how Dejesus and Dubon would do here, or even stick Perez at 2B for more at bats. I couldn't' stand Villar last year because of his inexcusable baserunning (unforced errors taking extra base regardless of outs/situation) even though his stats were great. It ticks me off that guys are flying up and down from AAA to majors and back at warp speed, but good ol Villar plays fairly regular, leading off many a game.

So, in a nutshell, you refuse to take an objective stance on this overall situation (big picture thinking) because your opinion of Villar is emotional in nature.

 

They both hit leadoff the vast majority of the time. In the leadoff spot Villar is slashing 232/290/663 and Kinsler 244/323/710. Again, I ask, how is trading 3yrs of a cheap, controlled Villar for 2 months of Kinsler a significant upgrade to boost us into the playoffs, especially when factoring in what we can get in return for Villar if he rebounds next year? And I absolutely believe he'll rebound next year; maybe not to his 2016 levels but he without question has the ability to easily be a top 10 producing MLB 2b where only Dee Gordon rivals is speed on the bases and maybe a handful have his power too (and he's a switch hitter).

 

Defensive metrics don't even take into account a player shifting. They're based upon someone playing straight up and the Brewers are in like the top 3 for teams that shift. Not saying Kinsler isn't better defensively than Villar, because he clearly is much better, but defensive metrics are far from being accurate. And how often is his defense going to impact the game over a 2 month span? Haven't heard many complaints about Villar's defense since April.

 

De Jesus is a 30yr old who's had very limited success at the MLB level - he's nothing but org depth. Decisions are based on a myriad of variables. Dubon has 31 games in AAA. If Brinson or Phillips aren't getting every day PT in CF over Broxton then there's no way Dubon is over Villar/Sogard/Perez. Perez is great playing 2-3x per week and gets much worse when playing full time. Villar has a much bigger upside than all these guys and he's 26 - that's why he gets the leash, that's why he's still in the lineup. Because he's performing terribly this year means we should throw all his potential into the garbage can for 2 months of a 35yr old who is barely outperforming him offensively in the leadoff spot?

 

Nobody was talking about making a trade for a position player - it was all about Quintana/Gray and pen arms. Then once Quintana/Gray were over there was a rumor involving Kinsler then everybody piles on Villar/Sogard. Again, whichever way the wind blows on any given day...

 

 

Kinsler's advanced stats has him hitting better than his avg/obp/slug. His line Drive rate is very high, as one poster said.

To me Kinsler's contact rate/k rate/ top line defense make up for Villar'sperceived value in the following seasons.

Also, I would like Kinsler because of his veteran presence, well-known good team player/mentor, gritty hustler and example to the rest of team.

He'll make pitchers throw a few extra pitches, like Sogard did in his haydays this season. Also, if you are going to bash me for not valuing Villar's future, do not forget Kinsler's recent past that had him hitting 29 HRs last year, and Detroit is not a hitter's park like Miller. Put Kinsler in a pennant race and this could chancge his output too.

His pricetAg for next year (10 mil) is manageable, and Villar's will be going up steadily as well in the next few seasons because of his 2016 season.

[rickh150]

Can anyone defend him leading off? ANYONE!????

[jerichoholicninja]

Can anyone defend him leading off? ANYONE!????

 

Counsell apparently.

[And That]

Am i seeing that both players have to clear waivers? I thought Kinsler could be clamed by Brewers and then the teams could work out a trade - So Brewers could trade Villar for Kinsler

If a player is on a 40-man roster, he needs to pass through waivers to be traded. So if Kinsler was claimed by the Brewers, Villar would either have to be claimed by the Tigers (and no one before them) or go unclaimed.

[Devinep]

Can anyone defend him leading off? ANYONE!????

 

Counsell apparently.

 

He's dumb enough to do it. But that doesn't mean he can defend it

[mlloyd10]

Why dont they just let Iván De Jesús Jr have a shot

 

Batting .363

[bill hAll Star]

Why dont they just let Iván De Jesús Jr have a shot

 

Batting .363

 

Colorado Springs (and PCL).