Babying Hader

[DHonks]

I think the Brewers decided that rather than have Hader struggle in Colorado Springs, they'd rather have him learn to harness his tools and the attack hitters from the big league bullpen for the time being

[Ennder]

I'm guessing the fact he is walking almost 20% of the guys he is facing has them looking for good spots to use him. I doubt Counsell trusts him at all. Like I would have never put him in the other night with the bases loaded, that is a disaster waiting to happen.

[pacopete4]

Sorry Ender but that is crap and it's so overblown. He gets outs. Does he needs to work on his control, absolutely. But it's no where near as bad as some are making it out to be.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Sorry Ender but that is crap and it's so overblown. He gets outs. Does he needs to work on his control, absolutely. But it's no where near as bad as some are making it out to be.

 

 

Walking over 7 guys per 9 innings is hard to overstate. That's a lot of walks. Bringing a guy with those kind of control issues into a bases loaded situation is a really bad idea.

[Ennder]

Sorry Ender but that is crap and it's so overblown. He gets outs. Does he needs to work on his control, absolutely. But it's no where near as bad as some are making it out to be.

 

 

He will not be a viable major league pitcher without it changing. Don't be fooled by the ERA which is meaningless over this sample, Hader has not pitched well at all. I trust every RP in the pen over him except for Scahill who shouldn't be on the team. The way he is being used I think Counsell probably agrees.

 

I expect it to improve over time, but until it does improve he really isn't trustworthy.

[jerichoholicninja]

Sorry Ender but that is crap and it's so overblown. He gets outs. Does he needs to work on his control, absolutely. But it's no where near as bad as some are making it out to be.

 

 

He will not be a viable major league pitcher without it changing. Don't be fooled by the ERA which is meaningless over this sample, Hader has not pitched well at all. I trust every RP in the pen over him except for Scahill who shouldn't be on the team. The way he is being used I think Counsell probably agrees.

 

I expect it to improve over time, but until it does improve he really isn't trustworthy.

 

If Counsell thinks Hader is the second worst pitcher in the bullpen then Stearns is pretty much ruining him by having him on the major league roster. I'm pretty sure Stearns and Counsell are smarter than that.

[MrTPlush]

If one thinks Josh Hader has been good they must be stuck on his ERA. Most advanced stats(and the eye test) shows he is erratic and not truly dominating hitters like some think. He is walking 7 per nine innings. That is nothing short of terrible. Opponents BABIP .138...over the long run that is going to rise dramatically. His BABIP in the minors is pushing .300 most years(yes even before Colorado). He is also stranding 96% of runners. Anyone really think that is even close to sustainable? The only good thing going for him is his 9.6 K/9, but honestly that isn't all that impressive for a bullpen arm. Certainly not good enough to be successful with so many walks.

 

Hader has simply not proven to be effective enough to get more innings. I don't think this bullpen is desperate enough anymore where we just throw Hader on the fire and see how he does.

[jerichoholicninja]

I'll agree the walks are troubling but he's thrown 61% of his pitches for strikes. For comparison, Knebel and Barnes are both 62%.

[Roderick]

Sorry Ender but that is crap and it's so overblown. He gets outs. Does he needs to work on his control, absolutely. But it's no where near as bad as some are making it out to be.

 

I think someone listed the walks and the situation and some of them were logical, but still it is obviously an issue. There would be no way I would bring him in with the bases loaded.

[Thurston Fluff]

Disagree 100%. Hader's role is to go multiple innings when necessary, not the "7th inning guy."

 

Bullpen roles are silly. If Hader is the best matchup for a hitter or a group of hitters, he should pitch against that hitter of group of hitters. Whether its in the 5th inning with 1 out or the 13th inning with two outs. Roles are why bullpens fail because managers fall in love with preconceived notions of situations rather than the facts of what is happening in the moment.

 

Wouldn't you agree facts of the moment are subordinate to how a bullpen does over a season? Perhaps overall bullpen performance is tied to at least semi defined roles even if a certain reliever might seem better suited to a different time than usual. I know I am in the minority on this, outside of virtually every manager ever that is, but I think generally defined roles are a good thing. I read a post above that said "The issue is that CC, like almost every manager, does not understand how to use a bullpen and solely determines when to use different pitchers based on the inning. Nothing else is taken into consideration. Since it was the 6th, there was a 0% CC would have used his "7th inning" guy, or "setup man" or certainly not "closer"." If all the mangers are doing it then there must be some reason for it. I just don't buy into the idea that they all do it because that is the way it has always been done nor do I think it is done without consideration. Considering how bullpen usage has changed over time it's obvious to me most managers arrived at this situation for some reason. That reason is not just to frustrate fans. I think it is done because it is the best way to get the most out of the whole pen. To me this whole debate about proper use of the bullpen is like the debate in football about the prevent defense. All coaches do it because they will all tell you the numbers back them up. Yet everyone thinks it is the stupidest thing to do and the only thing it does is prevent you from winning. Somehow I side with coaches on that as well.

[TJseven7]

If one thinks Josh Hader has been good they must be stuck on his ERA. Most advanced stats(and the eye test) shows he is erratic and not truly dominating hitters like some think. He is walking 7 per nine innings. That is nothing short of terrible. Opponents BABIP .138...over the long run that is going to rise dramatically. His BABIP in the minors is pushing .300 most years(yes even before Colorado). He is also stranding 96% of runners. Anyone really think that is even close to sustainable? The only good thing going for him is his 9.6 K/9, but honestly that isn't all that impressive for a bullpen arm. Certainly not good enough to be successful with so many walks.

 

Hader has simply not proven to be effective enough to get more innings. I don't think this bullpen is desperate enough anymore where we just throw Hader on the fire and see how he does.

 

Where are these metrics because I simply find this hard to believe. Judge tagged him... bell tagged him and a flare drove that run in. That's his 2. Erratic clearly... he has to be very close to 20 pitches per inning but not dominating? I do not remember a lot of loud outs. All stats that include walks will look overly bad but I dont believe his era is/was scahill lucky.

 

The walks and high ab pitch count keeps him from rotation consideration currently... but the yankees looked absolutely baffled. So bell judge... who else hit him in a way that should/would have produced runs?

[sveumrules]

Right now it looks like the only defined roles are Knebel closer & Barnes set up. Drake, Torres & Hughes seem to have been rotated through the 7th inning role based on match ups & availability since Feliz got the heave ho.

 

As far as Hader, I'm fine with them handling him a little more conservatively out of the pen. I'd try to bring him in clean to start innings in game situations where he can go two to three innings, ideally once every three or four days. I personally wouldn't have brought him into that bases loaded situation, but then again I'm just some dude on a message board.

[TJseven7]

I'd have handed him the ball immediately after phillips put mke up 2-1 sunday. On monday I would have brought in anyone but scahill or hader with the bases loaded.

 

I dont understand the 1 ip stuff since the break. I figured he'd get 2-3 ip looks to be a "close game" weapon/bp arm saver. Like a long man who pitches in non blowout mop/up situations. In case of a rain delay or short pen staff day... break out hader.

[Thurston Fluff]

Sorry Ender but that is crap and it's so overblown. He gets outs. Does he needs to work on his control, absolutely. But it's no where near as bad as some are making it out to be.

 

 

He will not be a viable major league pitcher without it changing. Don't be fooled by the ERA which is meaningless over this sample, Hader has not pitched well at all. I trust every RP in the pen over him except for Scahill who shouldn't be on the team. The way he is being used I think Counsell probably agrees.

 

I expect it to improve over time, but until it does improve he really isn't trustworthy.

 

If Counsell thinks Hader is the second worst pitcher in the bullpen then Stearns is pretty much ruining him by having him on the major league roster. I'm pretty sure Stearns and Counsell are smarter than that.

 

i don't think Stearns is going to risk ruining one of the highest rated left handed pitching prospects in baseball. If anything I think it's more likely they want him to understand what it takes to be an effective major league player by not playing him much if he walks too many. I think if he cuts the walks down his playing time will go up accordingly. Maybe this isn't babying at all. It just might be tough love. A learn to pitch to major league hitters and you get to pitch to more major league hitters sort of thing.

[jerichoholicninja]

i don't think Stearns is going to risk ruining one of the highest rated left handed pitching prospects in baseball. If anything I think it's more likely they want him to understand what it takes to be an effective major league player by not playing him much if he walks too many. I think if he cuts the walks down his playing time will go up accordingly. Maybe this isn't babying at all. It just might be tough love. A learn to pitch to major league hitters and you get to pitch to more major league hitters sort of thing.

 

That makes no sense though. "You're going to sit on the bench until you learn to throw strikes."? Send him down if that's the case. He's not a 26 year old finished product. If he's not going to pitch regularly in Milwaukee he needs to be pitching regularly somewhere, whatever role that may be.

[Thurston Fluff]

i don't think Stearns is going to risk ruining one of the highest rated left handed pitching prospects in baseball. If anything I think it's more likely they want him to understand what it takes to be an effective major league player by not playing him much if he walks too many. I think if he cuts the walks down his playing time will go up accordingly. Maybe this isn't babying at all. It just might be tough love. A learn to pitch to major league hitters and you get to pitch to more major league hitters sort of thing.

 

That makes no sense though. "You're going to sit on the bench until you learn to throw strikes."? Send him down if that's the case. He's not a 26 year old finished product. If he's not going to pitch regularly in Milwaukee he needs to be pitching regularly somewhere, whatever role that may be.

 

But he isn't just sitting on the bench. There is more to learning about being a major leaguer than just playing in the games. He is getting coaching and learning what it takes to pitch to major league hitters then getting some chances to put what he's learning into action. Just sending him down to CS might not be the best way to learn at this point. It is a weird place to pitch and one has to think that has to play some part in it as well. In an ideal world, from Hader's development perspective, the Brewers could either use him a lot and let him learn because the team isn't in contention or they could send him down to a normal AAA pitching environment. Thankfully, the Brewers are in contention and cannot afford to let him learn on the fly. Regrettably, the Brewers do not have a normal AAA pitching environment to let him work in so that option isn't ideal. I tend to think this is the best way forward for everyone involved. What I do not think is this is somehow going to ruin him because I just don't believe either Counsell or Stearns would do anything that stupid. I think saying he is going to be ruined over this is overstated. Not trying to pick on you personally for that, everybody does sometimes. Lord knows I have overstated things many times. The great thing about this site is people point out those instances so we all stay on an even keel.

[FVBrewerFan]

LouisEly made a great point earlier in this regard. They could have him pitching on the side working on his mechanics. Not that we should automatically accept whatever they do with a player, but sometimes there's more to the story we don't know.

[gregmag]

LouisEly made a great point earlier in this regard. They could have him pitching on the side working on his mechanics. Not that we should automatically accept whatever they do with a player, but sometimes there's more to the story we don't know.

Yes. I really don't understand these posts where somebody says "They're handling this or that thing badly," when it's inherently a situation with a lot of variables that we can't see. I mean, if it's "I'm mad that they're batting Villar leadoff," that's a visible decision with tangible consequences. There's still stuff we don't know about, and reasons that might cut both ways, but at least we have enough information to have a substantive discussion.

 

But something like how to handle a young pitcher late in the season . . . most of a process like that happens behind the scenes. I'm not going to rain on anybody's desire to question authority, because generally that's a good impulse. But for me, when I see a management team that has built up a lot of credibility make a move that I don't get but that I know involves a lot of information I can't access, my inclination is just to file the question in my brain and move along to the next thing.

[jerichoholicninja]

He's a reliever. I highly doubt he's throwing side sessions since that would make him unavailable for a game. It's not like a starter who's on a regular schedule.

[clancyphile]

He's a reliever. I highly doubt he's throwing side sessions since that would make him unavailable for a game. It's not like a starter who's on a regular schedule.

 

He has been dominant enough that it would make sense to put him in more high-leverage situations, but it seems like we go two or three days between his appearances. Today, he went 1.2 innings, no walks, one hit. No walks in his last three appearances, and in July his K/BB is 3.00 compared to 0.71 in June. Checking the game logs at baseball-reference (which don't include today's game), he is averaging 3 days rest between appearances.

 

Perhaps he is having his mechanics tweaked in side sessions.

[Greenleaf1]

The key for me with Hader is that it kinda seemed like leaving him at Colorado Springs was potentially going to demoralize him and at the same time they must've believed that more time there wasn't getting him the coaching help he needed or to make the necessary adjustments that he would need to be successful there (and, in turn, in the Majors).

 

By bringing him up and putting him in the bullpen, you're giving him a chance to be back in an environment where he's more comfortable with his pitches out of the thin air, he's getting Major League coaching, and he's being broken in slowly to the Major League environment. All the while, making sure to show continued confidence in him as a starter going forward past this year.

 

This approach cuts into his service time, but we also needed bullpen help which he's providing so I think it's a fair trade off. He's also used to starting and just straight converting to relief without much time to adjust is probably difficult and he needs more off days than other relievers. We're not really trying to get him all that used to the bullpen this year either so there's probably not much incentive to getting him to a position where he can pitch on back to back days, plus then he's a great option to provide multiple innings of relief in high leverage situations (like an Andrew Miller-lite).

 

If this is babying Hader, then fine, but it's a valid strategy and it seems to be working for Hader so far as his results in the Brewers' bullpen are much better than his results in AAA.

[FVBrewerFan]

That's a good way of putting it Greenleaf. I think at the same time it's a way of proving to him how badly he needs to command his other pitches to consistently get MLB hitters out. I mean you can harp on that in AA, but when you're blowing guys out, it's really hard to envision how different it will be in MLB.

 

So yea, this is a great ay to expose him to MLB hitters so he can make the adjustments he needs to make. In the meantime, he can' help but....help the BP. Would be hard for him to do much worse than Scahilldrakemillonetorres. That guy is no bueno.

[adambr2]

The key for me with Hader is that it kinda seemed like leaving him at Colorado Springs was potentially going to demoralize him

 

Unfortunately, this could be said of almost all of our pitching prospects that have the pleasure of pitching in Colorado Springs. 2019 can't come soon enough.

[pacopete4]

Nice job Counsell.

[JohnBriggs12]

Counsell keeps this thread active again. Counsell can't see the forest before the trees. Hader's​ stuff was electric against Harper. Apparently Counsell wasn't watching.