Babying Hader

[JohnBriggs12]

Pardon me if this was brought up in the game thread but Hader had thrown 14 pitches between Friday July 7th and Sunday July 16. Are you telling me Counsell was afraid to use him in the 6th inning yesterday? I understand not wanting to overwork a young arm, but really? That game was there to be taken. Every game is big now. Hader is a big league pitcher. He shouldn't need training wheels.

[BrewCrewBlueDevil]

Agreed 100%

9th: Knebel

8th: Barnes/Drake (lefties)

7th: Hader

 

Most of the pitchera are only good for six innings maximum. Anything close in the 5th or 6th should be handedover to Hader. If he is lights out let him go two. Neshek in the 8th, bumping Barnes and Drake to the 7th, would be ideal.

[DocLuna7]

Agreed Briggs. We are no longer at the point in the season or the place in the standings that any roster spot can be unjustifiably wasted.

[OnaBadger58]

Agreed 100%. I can understand being cautious his first couple of week, but at sometime you have to see what you have in Hader. I really think he could be a huge asset right now, and he could be our Andrew Miller down the road (if he isn't in the rotation). The program he is on right now isn't helping out the team nor is it helping out Hader. Give him higher leverage situations and pitch him more than every 4th or 5th day.

[FVBrewerFan]

Disagree 100%. Hader's role is to go multiple innings when necessary, not the "7th inning guy." Could he have been used yesterday? Probably not. He just pitched Friday night, and they may want more than one day off in between his appearances.

 

You can call it babying, I call it being smart with a talented young pitcher. Let's remember up until a couple months ago he was used to throwing every 5 days. He's been a starter for a long time, and I don't think it's wise to send him out there multiple times a week when he has not adjusted to the pen yet.

 

I will trust the plan they have for Hader over what those of us on the inter-webs think. Could very well be by the end of the season he is used more often, and used in late innings.

[rickh150]

Does anyone one else feel like CC is just managing his innings so that when August hits, he is moved back to the rotation full force? Or is this bullpen thing permanent, well for this season at least? He has solidified the pen with a late lefty, multiple inning reliever.

 

CC won't say what he is thinking for many reasons. If Hader struggles,he won't be put in rotation, just optioned back to AAA to start. No huge disappointment. If he does well, he could stay, be moved into rotation with less innings on his arm late in the season.

 

Personally, I feel Hader will start games in August and September. This reliever stuff is just smoke and mirrors until the last 6 or 7 weeks of the season. We need our best pitchers to pitch more innings, and Hader qualifies as one. We also need our starting staff to be solidified, partly because of injuries, partly because of inexperience and ineffectiveness. We will be able to pick up spare parts to the pen much easier for much less than a starter come late July.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

I was on board with Webb instead of Hader because of the latter's still-developing control. Bases loaded nobody out is not, at the moment, an ideal situation for Josh.

 

I can see a better case for Hader starting the inning, but Scahill was up as a sort of "just-in-case." Hader would have had to start throwing right after the home run, and even though it ended up being a bit longer before the inning ended, I can see not wanting to rush him into getting loose. I would have honestly preferred Torres to Scahill given the unavailability of Barnes/Knebel, but it's not like CC had a ton of options.

 

Hader's future is as a starter. Him being in the bullpen for now is a nice little bonus in that it keeps his innings down and lets him contribute in an area of need. Not to mention giving him some big league experience. I'd rather "baby" him than throw him out there too frequently, especially since he's the type that's going to run high pitch counts.

 

The bigger issue to me is just that Scahill shouldn't be on the roster.

[Greenleaf1]

It's tough when you have like 10 days between appearances like Scahill did there, but I think if he comes out next time and can't get outs, we'll be seeing Blazek back up pretty quickly.

 

As for babying Hader, he's been solid out of the bullpen but Hughes is the definite 7th inning guy for now and he has earned that spot.

 

I think Hader in the bullpen makes perfect sense:

- Let him continue to develop in a lower pressure environment than the rotation

- Let him work on his stuff out of the thin air of CS, where he was obviously not comfortable (and sending him down to AA was not an option)

- Let the Brewers utilize his talent down the stretch where a still shaky but undeniably talented pitcher would have his most value: the bullpen

 

So Hader helps out, gets eased into the bigs, gets out of CS, and then will be ready to start the year in the rotation next year if needed. Seems like a great plan to me, and so far it's working out well for Hader and the Brewers.

[KCBrewerfan34]

The decision to keep Scahill over Blazek already rears its ugly head.

[adambr2]

I was on board with Webb instead of Hader because of the latter's still-developing control. Bases loaded nobody out is not, at the moment, an ideal situation for Josh.

 

I can see a better case for Hader starting the inning, but Scahill was up as a sort of "just-in-case." Hader would have had to start throwing right after the home run, and even though it ended up being a bit longer before the inning ended, I can see not wanting to rush him into getting loose. I would have honestly preferred Torres to Scahill given the unavailability of Barnes/Knebel, but it's not like CC had a ton of options.

 

Hader's future is as a starter. Him being in the bullpen for now is a nice little bonus in that it keeps his innings down and lets him contribute in an area of need. Not to mention giving him some big league experience. I'd rather "baby" him than throw him out there too frequently, especially since he's the type that's going to run high pitch counts.

 

The bigger issue to me is just that Scahill shouldn't be on the roster.

 

I was critical of Webb over Hader in the game thread, but in retrospect today, I get it. Webb is a strikeout pitcher too, not just Hader, but Webb doesn't walk guys, Hader does. So you throw in Hader with no margin for error like that with the bases loaded and no one out and the game is lost. Webb made his pitch, Williams hit it out. Sucks, but happens.

 

Also agree that Scahill is the bigger issue, he shouldn't be on the roster much less pitching in a 1 run game. There's no reason Hader couldn't have taken the 6th and 7th innings, so I would have led with him in the 6th. But once the bases were loaded I understand Webb over Hader, situatuonally.

[FVBrewerFan]

There's no reason Hader couldn't have taken the 6th and 7th innings, so I would have led with him in the 6th.

 

There could have been a very good reason, as I outlined above.

[OnaBadger58]

There's no reason Hader couldn't have taken the 6th and 7th innings, so I would have led with him in the 6th.

 

There could have been a very good reason, as I outlined above.

I think they may be holding Hader for outings where Suter pitches too. Nothing to back this up, but I think it makes sense with the different pitching styles and the propensity to not go deep in games.

[Pugger]

I was on board with Webb instead of Hader because of the latter's still-developing control. Bases loaded nobody out is not, at the moment, an ideal situation for Josh.

 

I can see a better case for Hader starting the inning, but Scahill was up as a sort of "just-in-case." Hader would have had to start throwing right after the home run, and even though it ended up being a bit longer before the inning ended, I can see not wanting to rush him into getting loose. I would have honestly preferred Torres to Scahill given the unavailability of Barnes/Knebel, but it's not like CC had a ton of options.

 

Hader's future is as a starter. Him being in the bullpen for now is a nice little bonus in that it keeps his innings down and lets him contribute in an area of need. Not to mention giving him some big league experience. I'd rather "baby" him than throw him out there too frequently, especially since he's the type that's going to run high pitch counts.

 

The bigger issue to me is just that Scahill shouldn't be on the roster.

 

I just posted this in yesterday's in game thread - was it smart to put a young kid in his first appearance with his new team in that situation yesterday?

[topper09er]

I think actually what is happening is they are not babying Hader and already viewing him as the 3rd, or maybe 4th right behind Hughes, go-to bullpen arm. The issue is that CC, like almost every manager, does not understand how to use a bullpen and solely determines when to use different pitchers based on the inning. Nothing else is taken into consideration. Since it was the 6th, there was a 0% CC would have used his "7th inning" guy, or "setup man" or certainly not "closer".

 

Also, Hader does probably need some babying, he now has 9 appearances and only has 1 where he not walked at least one hitter, that is horrendous.

[brwrsfan]

The problem for me...Scahill just isn't very good IMO. He shouldn't have been kept over Blazek, and I certainly don't think he should have been used in a 1 run game yesterday. Coming off the break and with our bullpen relatively rested - why go to your worst relief pitcher there? He should be reserved for mop-up duty.

 

Seemed like a perfect spot to let Hader pitch the 6th and 7th potentially. If he wasn't available, then Drake or Hughes. Or let Webb just start the inning. There was no reason to go to Scahill in that spot. As stated above, every game is big and it just seemed like poor managing that cost us runs yesterday. Hopefully we can shake it off tonight - this Pirates series scares me for some reason. Be nice if Atlanta can shut the Cubs down too.

[adambr2]

There's no reason Hader couldn't have taken the 6th and 7th innings, so I would have led with him in the 6th.

 

There could have been a very good reason, as I outlined above.

 

If Knebel, Barnes, and Hader were all unavailable literally the 3rd game after the AS break, we need to do a little better job managing the pen.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

I was on board with Webb instead of Hader because of the latter's still-developing control. Bases loaded nobody out is not, at the moment, an ideal situation for Josh.

 

I can see a better case for Hader starting the inning, but Scahill was up as a sort of "just-in-case." Hader would have had to start throwing right after the home run, and even though it ended up being a bit longer before the inning ended, I can see not wanting to rush him into getting loose. I would have honestly preferred Torres to Scahill given the unavailability of Barnes/Knebel, but it's not like CC had a ton of options.

 

Hader's future is as a starter. Him being in the bullpen for now is a nice little bonus in that it keeps his innings down and lets him contribute in an area of need. Not to mention giving him some big league experience. I'd rather "baby" him than throw him out there too frequently, especially since he's the type that's going to run high pitch counts.

 

The bigger issue to me is just that Scahill shouldn't be on the roster.

 

I just posted this in yesterday's in game thread - was it smart to put a young kid in his first appearance with his new team in that situation yesterday?

 

Fair enough, though the situation did call for a lefty, and I think Webb's a better choice than Hader for the reasons above. Not ideal but best given the limited set of options available. I suppose you can make the case that Webb should have been starting the inning, but then he's going through two tough right-handers with a late one-run lead in his first outing. I suppose Drake could have come in once the bases were loaded too since he's being used as a lefty specialist, but I can see thinking you might need him later with the bullpen down two arms.

 

Point is, it's a tough call, and I think CC just tried to let it ride when he probably should have used a better reliever to start the inning. Didn't work out, but that's probably a choice you have to make with a limited number of BP arms at some point in a season. For all we know, the plan was to use Hader as the closer. If he's the best reliever you've got left, I can see wanting him later.

[homer]

Is the argument that Hader was a better option than Webb?

[Oldcity]

I think they want him to be the relief ace, a la Miller or Devenski. Those guys don't pitch in as many games necessarily, bit they often go multiple innings and are really, really valuable.

 

I don't think they move Hader to the rotation until next season.

[lcbj68c]

Disagree 100%. Hader's role is to go multiple innings when necessary, not the "7th inning guy."

 

Bullpen roles are silly. If Hader is the best matchup for a hitter or a group of hitters, he should pitch against that hitter of group of hitters. Whether its in the 5th inning with 1 out or the 13th inning with two outs. Roles are why bullpens fail because managers fall in love with preconceived notions of situations rather than the facts of what is happening in the moment.

[FVBrewerFan]

Disagree 100%. Hader's role is to go multiple innings when necessary, not the "7th inning guy."

 

Bullpen roles are silly. If Hader is the best matchup for a hitter or a group of hitters, he should pitch against that hitter of group of hitters. Whether its in the 5th inning with 1 out or the 13th inning with two outs. Roles are why bullpens fail because managers fall in love with preconceived notions of situations rather than the facts of what is happening in the moment.

 

I agree in general with that. But Hader's case is unique, because he was stretched out as a starter, and used to pitching every 5th day. Now ask him to rather suddenly pitch every day or every other day, and that could be an arm problem in the making.

 

That's why they may be working him in as a long reliever, and then later this season they have the option of putting him back into the rotation or using him more in late inning situations. I have no idea if this is why they're using him this way, but it makes more sense that "babying" him, since they haven't babied any other rookie.

[Jopal78]

Isn't the more important question; where are the innings going to come from? If you look at the players' usage last year compared with this year it looks like Milwaukee is going to have to ride some of these arms pretty hard, or get some fresh arms in the bullpen:

 

IP in 2016 IP in 2017

Barnes 51.2 41.2

Knebel 49.2 44.1

Drake 74.1 34.1

Hughes 59.1 37.1

Torres 82.1 48.1

 

Hader pitched over 120 innings last year and would seem to have plenty of room to go before reaching that sort of limit. Outside of that, short starts by the rotation will seemingly lead to Milwaukee leaning on Torres, Scahill, etc. more and more.

[FVBrewerFan]

Yea, getting into uncharted territory with Knebel and Barnes, but as long as they're in the race I think they ride it out with them. As for Hader, yea the issue isn't number of innings- it's how they're used. When a starter's arm is used to pitching every 5 days, probably not wise to suddenly have that arm pitch 4 times a week. Especially if it's a young arm.

[LouisEly]

I don't know that it is "babying"; there could be other things going on. I think there were two reasons for bringing him up: 1) the Brewers needed an effective lefty in the pen, and B) Colorado Springs was not doing Hader any favors in terms of development. The best thing was to have him in Milwaukee, even if it was in the bullpen.

 

Where I'm going with this is that Hader might be getting extra work on the side with major league coaches to try to refine his mechanics and improve his control. He might be throwing more "pitches" than the box scores indicate, thus he might not be available as much.

 

Plus, as others say, he was used to throwing every five days and now it's erratic. Still need to be careful with him, which was likely one reason behind acquiring Webb.

[rickh150]

Was it the plan all along this year to have Hader come out of the pen midstream, or did this Change when the Brewers were "in it" come June? Was this ever asked to CC? I like the wrinkle he adds to the pen, but I can see him being a key to the rotation this year too.