Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...

[Brewcrewin07]

What some people aren't getting I think is that, yes, the Crew hasn't scored any runs this series, BUT, you aren't thinking about the "impact" and extra "juice" an acquisition can give a team. If you don't think the Quintana acquisition for the Cubs hasn't helped at least to an extent, them rattle off 6 in a row, then you don't quite understand all the aspects of baseball. I Coached an adult amateur team for the past 5 years, and last year we were struggling to get any traction going at the beginning of the year. I knew my team could hit, but for whatever reason they weren't. We lost the first 4 games to start the year, all of them close. In the meantime, I had been out "recruiting" and happened to find a Pitcher that I felt like was as good as we have had since I started Coaching. Game 5, he started for us, we knocked out 13 hits, scored 8 runs and won the game easily. Same with the next 5 weeks in a row. The hits started coming. I could see the extra "juice" my guys were playing with all of a sudden because of the Pitcher I brought in.

 

It's a very real thing in baseball...and DS has failed to give this team the "shot in the arm" that they need right now. Is it guaranteed to work?? Of course not. But the worst that happens, is you miss the playoffs and still have Gray for another 2 years after this.

 

I really thought that he'd make a trade coming out of the AS break like the Cubs did...that made the most sense to me. At this point, after gagging away 4 games of a once decent 5 1/2 game lead, I think it's a little too late. Yes, there's a lot of baseball remaining, but the Cubs have seized momentum, and I don't feel like the Crew will get it back at this point.

 

I like DS, I think he's done some good things so far, but to be quite honest, if you are a GM of a baseball team, and you are afraid to trade away some prospects for fear they might turn out to be the next Babe Ruth, then quite frankly, you probably shouldn't be a GM. There are ZERO guarantees any of these prospects work out, you have to give to get, and the way some of you slobber over prospects is amazing. If I can trade away prospects and get PROVEN Major league talent in return, I do it every single time. It's a no brainer to me. You play to win the game. Period.

[KeithStone53151]

Can I just add that just because certain people are suggesting we need Gray or another starter that doesn't mean we are "panicking" or "freaking out". Repeating "R-E-L-A-X" doesn't help much. I do agree we shouldn't read too much into the past few days but the fact is the Brewers have several starters who are pitching over their heads, namely Nelson and Anderson, and getting a guy like Gray who, short of one injury plagued season, has been a pretty solid pitcher would help not only this year but the next few years as well. Who cares if he is an "ace" or not. He's a solid pitcher. Next year we'll lose Garza. Who knows if Guerra gets it together or if Woodruff is ready but Gray would probably be our best starter. So it's not just about helping hold off the Cubs it's about making our team better for the next several seasons. We clearly have the prospects to get him. We have at least six guys who could be playing every day in the outfield right now so let's trade one or two of them while their value is still high.

 

My offer for Gray would be headlined by Phillips and Hader along with two lower ceiling guys. I just can't pull the trigger on moving Brinson. He should be our every day CF next year. But I think if the A's insist on Brinson they're not being realistic.

 

Of course gray would help our tram, but where you lose me and likely others is the idea of giving up hader, woodruff, or burnes. This team was not supposed to contend this year and it isn't a good idea to shell out any of our top pitching for a mid rotation guy. If we want to compete consistently, overpaying for pitching now is not the answer.

[PaulLeoMolitor]

I could see the extra "juice" my guys were playing with all of a sudden because of the Pitcher I brought in.

[OnaBadger58]

What some people aren't getting I think is that, yes, the Crew hasn't scored any runs this series, BUT, you aren't thinking about the "impact" and extra "juice" an acquisition can give a team. If you don't think the Quintana acquisition for the Cubs hasn't helped at least to an extent, them rattle off 6 in a row, then you don't quite understand all the aspects of baseball. I Coached an adult amateur team for the past 5 years, and last year we were struggling to get any traction going at the beginning of the year. I knew my team could hit, but for whatever reason they weren't. We lost the first 4 games to start the year, all of them close. In the meantime, I had been out "recruiting" and happened to find a Pitcher that I felt like was as good as we have had since I started Coaching. Game 5, he started for us, we knocked out 13 hits, scored 8 runs and won the game easily. Same with the next 5 weeks in a row. The hits started coming. I could see the extra "juice" my guys were playing with all of a sudden because of the Pitcher I brought in.

 

It's a very real thing in baseball...and DS has failed to give this team the "shot in the arm" that they need right now. Is it guaranteed to work?? Of course not. But the worst that happens, is you miss the playoffs and still have Gray for another 2 years after this.

 

I really thought that he'd make a trade coming out of the AS break like the Cubs did...that made the most sense to me. At this point, after gagging away 4 games of a once decent 5 1/2 game lead, I think it's a little too late. Yes, there's a lot of baseball remaining, but the Cubs have seized momentum, and I don't feel like the Crew will get it back at this point.

 

I like DS, I think he's done some good things so far, but to be quite honest, if you are a GM of a baseball team, and you are afraid to trade away some prospects for fear they might turn out to be the next Babe Ruth, then quite frankly, you probably shouldn't be a GM. There are ZERO guarantees any of these prospects work out, you have to give to get, and the way some of you slobber over prospects is amazing. If I can trade away prospects and get PROVEN Major league talent in return, I do it every single time. It's a no brainer to me. You play to win the game. Period.

 

 

[adambr2]

What some people aren't getting I think is that, yes, the Crew hasn't scored any runs this series, BUT, you aren't thinking about the "impact" and extra "juice" an acquisition can give a team. If you don't think the Quintana acquisition for the Cubs hasn't helped at least to an extent, them rattle off 6 in a row, then you don't quite understand all the aspects of baseball. I Coached an adult amateur team for the past 5 years, and last year we were struggling to get any traction going at the beginning of the year. I knew my team could hit, but for whatever reason they weren't. We lost the first 4 games to start the year, all of them close. In the meantime, I had been out "recruiting" and happened to find a Pitcher that I felt like was as good as we have had since I started Coaching. Game 5, he started for us, we knocked out 13 hits, scored 8 runs and won the game easily. Same with the next 5 weeks in a row. The hits started coming. I could see the extra "juice" my guys were playing with all of a sudden because of the Pitcher I brought in.

 

It's a very real thing in baseball...and DS has failed to give this team the "shot in the arm" that they need right now. Is it guaranteed to work?? Of course not. But the worst that happens, is you miss the playoffs and still have Gray for another 2 years after this.

 

I really thought that he'd make a trade coming out of the AS break like the Cubs did...that made the most sense to me. At this point, after gagging away 4 games of a once decent 5 1/2 game lead, I think it's a little too late. Yes, there's a lot of baseball remaining, but the Cubs have seized momentum, and I don't feel like the Crew will get it back at this point.

 

I like DS, I think he's done some good things so far, but to be quite honest, if you are a GM of a baseball team, and you are afraid to trade away some prospects for fear they might turn out to be the next Babe Ruth, then quite frankly, you probably shouldn't be a GM. There are ZERO guarantees any of these prospects work out, you have to give to get, and the way some of you slobber over prospects is amazing. If I can trade away prospects and get PROVEN Major league talent in return, I do it every single time. It's a no brainer to me. You play to win the game. Period.

 

So I'm guessing you were one of those last year that wasn't going to give up Braun for Bellinger unless you got Verdugo back too?

 

Your last point about reading away prospects for proven major league talent every single time is so generalized and oversimplified and makes me very glad you are not in charge of making decisions for this franchise.

[Jenkins5]

I hardly doubt Stearns is scared to trade prospects or make a splash. He simply isn't a fan & over reacts to a hot start. He knows where they are in the rebuild. It was a nice surprise they played that great in first half, however, he is smart to know the roster/system inside out. Outside of Brewer Nation, no one thinks the Brewers roster can compete with the elites like Dodgers, Nationals, Cubs. Those teams have some elite hitters & pitchers. Who on the Brewers could you say right now is elite? We are a roster of developing guys who are either overachieving or starting to discover potential. Braun & Perez are probably the only two you know for sure what you are getting with. You hope Shaw, Santana & Pina are this good. Thames & Aguilar? Broxton? Villar? Sogard?

 

On the pitching side, we knew Jimmy could be this.... he has flashed it. Knebel we thought we were getting a future closer when we acquired him. The rest of the staff..... who knows yet?

 

This roster has too many question marks & holes for Sonny Gray to save the day.... Stearns knows that. This was a 70-75 win roster to start the year. You don't give up on rebuild because of a hot start. We are not true World Series contenders.... yet. Stick to plan.

[brewmann04]

Or the Orioles and Braves as opponents. If Kneble saved the game would anyone be freaking out or claiming the Q trade jump started the Cubs and we're lacking?

 

I agree if we got the win and split on the road in Pittsburgh no issue.

I never worry about what another team does we control our own destiny

[brewmann04]

This roster has too many question marks & holes for Sonny Gray to save the day.... Stearns knows that. This was a 70-75 win roster to start the year. You don't give up on rebuild because of a hot start. We are not true World Series contenders.... yet. Stick to plan.

 

 

Spot on that what I have said played way over their heads to the all star break

[adambr2]

I hardly doubt Stearns is scared to trade prospects or make a splash. He simply isn't a fan & over reacts to a hot start. He knows where they are in the rebuild. It was a nice surprise they played that great in first half, however, he is smart to know the roster/system inside out. Outside of Brewer Nation, no one thinks the Brewers roster can compete with the elites like Dodgers, Nationals, Cubs. Those teams have some elite hitters & pitchers. Who on the Brewers could you say right now is elite? We are a roster of developing guys who are either overachieving or starting to discover potential. Braun & Perez are probably the only two you know for sure what you are getting with. You hope Shaw, Santana & Pina are this good. Thames & Aguilar? Broxton? Villar? Sogard?

 

On the pitching side, we knew Jimmy could be this.... he has flashed it. Knebel we thought we were getting a future closer when we acquired him. The rest of the staff..... who knows yet?

 

This roster has too many question marks & holes for Sonny Gray to save the day.... Stearns knows that. This was a 70-75 win roster to start the year. You don't give up on rebuild because of a hot start. We are not true World Series contenders.... yet. Stick to plan.

 

Exactly. Worry about ourselves and our own development, not about what the teams around us our doing. We're still rebuilding. That doesn't mean we can't and won't finish with a better than average team this year, but if we're going to make moves, make them for ourselves. If we're making reactionary moves based on the moves or anticipated moves of a team that 99.9% of people expected to win this division, we've already failed at the rebuild.

[And That]

According to Jon Paul Morosi via MLBTR, Sonny Gray talks between the A's and Astros are "heating up."

[nate82]

According to Jon Paul Morosi via MLBTR, Sonny Gray talks between the A's and Astros are "heating up."

 

Good hopefully they get him and we can close this thread.

[adambr2]

According to Jon Paul Morosi via MLBTR, Sonny Gray talks between the A's and Astros are "heating up."

 

Good hopefully they get him and we can close this thread.

 

I agree . Sonny Gray isn't going to be the savior that will hold off the Cubs .

[reillymcshane]

I'd take Sonny Gray in a heartbeat. He would be a great addition. I just don't want to overpay for him.

 

I've said this before, but I'm happy to go to war with the guys that got me there. If we can improve at a reasonable cost - go for it. But otherwise, let's just roll the dice with the kids that got us to this point. I like the process we have developed.

[mattyo]

Stick to the plan. Gray is not helping us anywhere past the wild card. I wouldn't be willing to part with quality prospects that can be used on a true TOR guy next year or the year after, when we are more likely to compete.

[brewmann04]

I agree we have a plan stick with it maybe get Woodruff into the rotation and platoon Phillips in Center as a few subtle changes.

[Brewcrewin07]

 

A's scouting Yankees AA affiliate...so, if this is all it would take for Gray(some AAers), there is ZERO excuse DS shouldn't have had this done already. Ridiculous.

[adambr2]

 

A's scouting Yankees AA affiliate...so, if this is all it would take for Gray(some AAers), there is ZERO excuse DS shouldn't have had this done already. Ridiculous.

 

#1 - The Yankees have Jorge Mateo in AA, who is a pretty elite prospect .

 

#2 - You draw that conclusion, that it will be a light return, from a report that the A"s are scouting the Yankees AA affiliate? Really?

[Brewcrewin07]

 

A's scouting Yankees AA affiliate...so, if this is all it would take for Gray(some AAers), there is ZERO excuse DS shouldn't have had this done already. Ridiculous.

 

#1 - The Yankees have Jorge Mateo in AA, who is a pretty elite prospect .

 

#2 - You draw that conclusion, that it will be a light return, from a report that the A"s are scouting the Yankees AA affiliate? Really?

 

If By ELITE prospect you mean someone not even in baseball america's top 100(as of May), sure then I guess he's elite.

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/top-100-prospects-updated-may-11/#oVe4sYGc2EkWSydU.97

[reillymcshane]

 

A's scouting Yankees AA affiliate...so, if this is all it would take for Gray(some AAers), there is ZERO excuse DS shouldn't have had this done already. Ridiculous.

You don't need an excuse to not do something stupid.

 

No one knows what it's going to take to get Gray. Until a deal is done by someone - anyone - the only ridiculous thing is that we should assume that we should have a deal done by now. In the end, perhaps you're right. But right now, no one knows the situation except the GMs.

[paul253]

Of course gray would help our tram, but where you lose me and likely others is the idea of giving up hader, woodruff, or burnes

 

Because I see Hader as a bullpen arm. The admittedly few times I've seen him pitch it seems like nobody has any idea where the ball is going. His command is awful. Even when he was pitching real well in the minors he was only going 5 innings or so because he was throwing way too many pitches. I just don't see him starting games, at least not any time soon.

 

Burnes is putting up really good numbers as well but his ceiling is that of a 4 or 5. Mike Fiers put up really good minor league numbers too. I'm not saying that'a not worth something. Nor am I saying he'll for sure only be a 4 or 5. But that his profile.

 

Woodruff I also see as a 3 or 4. Now don't get me wrong. I don't want to trade any of them. But you have to give up something to get something. I personally think Gray is already a better starting pitcher than any of them will turn out to be. So therefore trading one of them wouldn't be the end of the world.

 

I agree we have a plan stick with it maybe get Woodruff into the rotation and platoon Phillips in Center as a few subtle changes

 

What exactly is our plan? Because I could have sworn it was to build a consistent winner. Trading away some prospects, of which we have plenty and some of whom are major league ready but currently blocked, doesn't mean we are abandoning our plan. Wasn't the whole argument for acquiring outfielder after outfielder after outfielder after outfielder that we could trade some of them away for quality MLB players? Now that opportunity has arrived and people are acting like if we trade away a prospect we are abandoning our future.

 

Face it. We do not have room on our major league roster for Braun and Broxton and Brinson and Perez and Phillips and Santana and Cordell. Nor do we room in our rotation for Davies and Woodruff and Hader and Nelson and Guerra and Anderson and Suter and Derby and Jungmann, all of whom we make a decent case for being in the rotation right now (plus Burnes and Ortiz in AA). Whenever people like me make a comment about drafting or trading for prospects who play a position we are already loaded at we are told "Don't worry the logjam will work its way out". Well guess what. The outfield logjam is not going to work its way out. We will have to do something about it. So why not use some of those guys, plus some of our pitching prospects, to acquire a quality major league pitcher who will be here for at least three more years? I don't understand how trading guys we currently have nowhere to put other than the bench or the minors, where they don't need to be, changes our plan? Our plan was to win. We are winning. So how about we try to maybe accelerate the plan?

[JosephC]

Reading the baseball sites it sounds like the Brewers were way in on Gray, then the Astros were way in on Gray, then the Yankees were way in on Gray. One thing the Brewers, Astros and Yankees have in common is they all have a pretty good set of minor league pieces to make a deal with. Just have to think that the price-tag is too high if none of these teams are willing to step up and finish a deal.

[brewmann04]

How does anyone know what someone Celing even before he hits the majors.

[KeithStone53151]

Of course gray would help our tram, but where you lose me and likely others is the idea of giving up hader, woodruff, or burnes

 

Because I see Hader as a bullpen arm. The admittedly few times I've seen him pitch it seems like nobody has any idea where the ball is going. His command is awful. Even when he was pitching real well in the minors he was only going 5 innings or so because he was throwing way too many pitches. I just don't see him starting games, at least not any time soon.

 

Burnes is putting up really good numbers as well but his ceiling is that of a 4 or 5. Mike Fiers put up really good minor league numbers too. I'm not saying that'a not worth something. Nor am I saying he'll for sure only be a 4 or 5. But that his profile.

 

Woodruff I also see as a 3 or 4. Now don't get me wrong. I don't want to trade any of them. But you have to give up something to get something. I personally think Gray is already a better starting pitcher than any of them will turn out to be. So therefore trading one of them wouldn't be the end of the world.

 

I agree we have a plan stick with it maybe get Woodruff into the rotation and platoon Phillips in Center as a few subtle changes

 

What exactly is our plan? Because I could have sworn it was to build a consistent winner. Trading away some prospects, of which we have plenty and some of whom are major league ready but currently blocked, doesn't mean we are abandoning our plan. Wasn't the whole argument for acquiring outfielder after outfielder after outfielder after outfielder that we could trade some of them away for quality MLB players? Now that opportunity has arrived and people are acting like if we trade away a prospect we are abandoning our future.

 

Face it. We do not have room on our major league roster for Braun and Broxton and Brinson and Perez and Phillips and Santana and Cordell. Nor do we room in our rotation for Davies and Woodruff and Hader and Nelson and Guerra and Anderson and Suter and Derby and Jungmann, all of whom we make a decent case for being in the rotation right now (plus Burnes and Ortiz in AA). Whenever people like me make a comment about drafting or trading for prospects who play a position we are already loaded at we are told "Don't worry the logjam will work its way out". Well guess what. The outfield logjam is not going to work its way out. We will have to do something about it. So why not use some of those guys, plus some of our pitching prospects, to acquire a quality major league pitcher who will be here for at least three more years? I don't understand how trading guys we currently have nowhere to put other than the bench or the minors, where they don't need to be, changes our plan? Our plan was to win. We are winning. So how about we try to maybe accelerate the plan?

 

Hader is still young and can improve. Baseball is littered with examples of guys that have improved their command and guys who haven't. The upside there is tremendous if he does, and if he doesn't he's already proving filthy in the pen.

 

You might want to search out some recent scouting reports before dubbing burnes a 4 or 5 ceiling. Enough said there.

 

Woodruffs most likely result might be a 3 as you said. 6 years of that has more value than 2+ years of Gray. And that completely ignores the upside woodruff has that Gray doesn't.

 

Pitching is king. We should push heavily to center this trade around our surplus of outfielders or not do it at all.

[paul253]

how does anyone know what someone celing even before he hits the majors.

 

Scouts. Their entire job is to figure out what a players ceiling is. Obviously they can be wrong on guys and often are but for the most part you know what you're getting with any given player.

 

......and if he doesn't he's already proving filthy in the pen

 

Over the course of 14 innings. With 11 walks. Derrick Turnbow "proved filthy" once too.

 

Look I'm not saying the guy isn't good or can't reach his potential. Im not hoping they trade him but if we want to get a guy like Gray we're going to need to give something up. People need to be realistic with these scenarios. We'll take Gray from you and you can have Medeiros, Ray and Peralta. These aren't genuine proposals. Whether we care to admit it or not Oakland is going to get a nice haul for Gray. As another poster (I forget who) said if you don't want to give up what it takes to get Gray then just say so. But we cannot seriously claim we want Gray then refuse to give up Hader Ortiz Burnes and Woodruff.

 

You might want to search out some recent scouting reports before dubbing burnes a 4 or 5 ceiling. Enough said there

 

Every scouting I've read says his likely ceiling as that of mid to back end starter. If I'm missing something that says he can turn into a 1 or 2 I apologize. But I've been fooled by good minor league numbers before.

 

Woodruffs most likely result might be a 3 as you said. 6 years of that has more value than 2+ years of Gray.

 

Didn't Wily Peralta once have the upside of a 3? Would 6 years of him held more value then 2+ years of an established, quality major league pitcher who finished 3rd in the Cy Young balloting?

 

I appreciate your optimism and I certainly hope you're right but you seem to have this assumption that every prospect we have is going to reach their potential. That ignores are sorts of history. Brandon Woodruff and Corbin Burnes and Josh Hader could very well headline our rotation for the next 6 years and all reach or exceed their potential. I'm certainly rooting for that. Or every single one of them could flame out. Forgive my cynicism but I've seen good pitching prospects in the Brewers system before that I've been excited about. And other than Ben Sheets, Yovani Gallardo and maybe Jimmy Nelson every one of them has failed to live up to their expectations. That certainly doesn't mean the ones we have now will also fail but it does give me pause to just automatically assume their going to be quality pitchers and we shouldn't move them for established players.

 

We have an opportunity to obtain a quality MLB pitcher who has already had major league success, will probably instantly be the best pitcher on the roster and can help us for multiple years. Yes it's risky but so is relying on unproven prospects. We have the unique opportunity to make a trade that helps us now without sacrificing the future. We have a glut of outfielders and a number of quality pitching prospects (emphasis on prospects). We will have to give up two good prospects plus some but we will obtain a quality player in return.

 

And that completely ignores the upside woodruff has that Gray doesn't

 

Because Gray has already reached his upside. If Woodruff reaches his he'd probably be a similar pitcher in terms of quality. But if he doesn't then you lose out. That's the risk in relying on prospects.

 

And for what it's worth between Hader Burnes Woodruff and Ortiz I'm only willing to move one in a trade for Gray. The other headliner has to be an outfielder or other position player. I'm certainly not anti prospect and unwilling to hang on to them to see if they pan out.. I of course realize the value of them but I also realize the risk.

[Brewcrewin07]

This piece by Rosenthal is SPOT on...Maybe now some of you will start to "get it" and see why I and others are pushing this so hard...https://www.facebook.com/kenrosenthalsports/posts/1455526177846442

 

The Twins stepped up on Thursday, closing in on a trade for Braves left-hander Jaime Garcia, a potential free agent, when their preference was for a controllable starter.

 

Will the Brewers be the next rebuilding club to leave their comfort zone, knowing they are contending sooner than they expected, knowing that a trade for Athletics right-hander Sonny Gray would put them in even better position to win?

 

Neither the Twins nor Brewers planned to be buyers, but here’s the thing: Rebuilding clubs cannot always wait for their long-term plans to become fully formed. A team with a chance to win needs to seize the moment, for the opportunity might not come so quickly again

.

 

 

 

Exactly what i have been saying...there are NO guarantees (like some of you seem to think) that 3-4 years down the road, that the brewers will be even ready to be in contention then. It's that simple. Go for it...NOW.

 

The same goes for Brewers general manager David Stearns, though the acquisition cost for Gray will be far steeper than the acquisition cost for Garcia. What’s more, the winds in the NL Central already are shifting – the defending World Series champion Cubs have won six straight games since the All-Star break, while the Brewers have lost their last five, including four straight to the surging Pirates.

 

The deadline is still 11 days away, but Stearns — pursuing both starters and relievers — might already have waited too long. The Cubs, who made their big move at the break, acquiring left-hander Jose Quintana from the White Sox, still intend to acquire a left-handed reliever and backup catcher. The Brewers’ competition for Gray, meanwhile, might grow beyond obvious contenders such as the Yankees and Astros.

 

Said this too...he has waited too long, and have no freaking clue as to why.

 

 

Oh, and another thing: The Cubs, Cardinals and Pirates are not simply going to roll over when the Brewers determine that their rebuilding plan is complete. If anything, those clubs might only grow stronger in the near future.

+1000...talk prospects all you want, but again, show me the 100% proof thay the current crop will have them contending year after year.

 

The Brewers still lead the NL Central, if only by one game; for all anyone knows, this might be their best chance for the next several years. Stearns and Co. can argue that Gray is flawed. They can back off in trade discussions, fearing further regression. They can decide, quite rationally, that their best play is to add a reliever or two at a modest acquisition cost, and live to fight another day.

 

OK, but at some point, the priorities must shift.

 

From selling to buying. From rebuilding to winning.

 

Well said Ken, well said...