Re: Scahill DFA, Woodruff Promoted, Starts Game 1 Today [Or would have but for his hamstring]; Woodruff optioned back to AAA after rehab

[Roderick]

Yeah, I don't think Woodruff is going to the pen. If he has a great debut he'll be tough to send back down right now though. It'd be a good time to try to trade Garza while he still has some of his early season value, but coming off an injury isn't usually the best time for that. It's hard to see anyone else in the rotation getting traded now, but you never know.

 

I'd love for Garza to get traded but I highly highly doubt it happens.

 

I think with Garza would have to pitch at least two good games before he would establish whatever value again (even if only cash relief). If I was a contending team, you are going to want to make sure with him that he is really not hampered at all by injury.

 

But if he can show he is doing well, he doesn't have much mileage on the arm this season, so one could make the case he won't wear down (barring further injury of something).

[Roderick]

Scahill has been just putrid this year, glad he is gone. Don't let the lucky ERA fool you. Almost double the walks as he has strike outs, 90% zone contact rate. This is a guy who can't strike people out and is very hittable. He is 30 years old and hasn't shown a stat line worth owning since 2014 in AAA.

 

His walks aren't good, but no worse than the rest of the bad pen. His whip is decent for our pen. I still would have dfa'd Drake, Feliz, and Peralta before Scahill - but would not consider it to be a bid deal of difference.

[Thurston Fluff]

Scahill came into tie games twice and surrendered the go ahead runs. All of the rest of the guys in the pen had similar results or worse. Agree that Scahill didn't distinguish himself but he's far from alone. Would he have shut down the Dodgers in the game Torres blew up? He didn't get the chance. His departure will have little effect positive or negative because Counsell never used him as anything other than the last resort.

 

Which shows how they viewed him compared to others. As his 6.05 FIP shows, he was not good.

Shouldn't be a surprise he is the first to go. I doubt he will be the last.

[dacbrewers]

Happy about woodruff but whoever called the LIFO approach from Stearns was spot on. Scahill was at least 3rd behind Peralta, Feliz and even Torres.

That was me and I am starting to figure out Stearns reasoning. Since Peralta isn't a Stearns guy, I could see him being gone sooner than later this year unless he has a miracle turnaround.

[adambr2]

Happy about woodruff but whoever called the LIFO approach from Stearns was spot on. Scahill was at least 3rd behind Peralta, Feliz and even Torres.

That was me and I am starting to figure out Stearns reasoning. Since Peralta isn't a Stearns guy, I could see him being gone sooner than later this year unless he has a miracle turnaround.

 

Milone, Marinez and Scahill were 'Stearns guys' just as much as Feliz, Torres, Hughes and Drake are, so I don't think there's anything to this theory.

[dacbrewers]

One thing that really confuses me is that the #1 Pitching prospect we have...goes to pen without getting a start but they will let Woodruff start a game. Way to show some confidence in Hader...not.

[adambr2]

And Woodruff's MLB debut ends before it starts.

[Harry Doyles JD]

And Woodruff's MLB debut ends before it starts.

Scratched with right hamstring tightness. Suter to start.

[Outlander]

Unbelievable, why can't we have nice things.

[MrTPlush]

One thing that really confuses me is that the #1 Pitching prospect we have...goes to pen without getting a start but they will let Woodruff start a game. Way to show some confidence in Hader...not.

 

A GM doesn't care about prospect rankings. Josh Hader has sucked this year and has shown little control. He is a big boy and needs to prove he actually deserves a shot. Brandon Woodruff plays in the same conditions and has been way better. Hader didn't deserve to get a start.

[dacbrewers]

Hader was specifically told to work on various pitches at colorado springs, you can take his stats and throw them out the window.

[leitermab07]

Hader was specifically told to work on various pitches at colorado springs, you can take his stats and throw them out the window.

 

Have you watched him pitch this year??.. He has been struggling to control all his pitches.. So walks and Whip stats should be thrown out the window because he can't control his fastball or his slider? Those stats represent his inconsistent control, hence why he is going to the pen(for now). and don't tell me its all about CS.. he hasn't controlled either home or away. He is dealing with AAA hitters now, and not everyone is chasing his slider outside the zone like they were in AA.. These inconsistencies along with only having 2 pitches(he rarely throws his change-up) is a concern for a guy people think is going to be an TOR starting pitcher.

[MrTPlush]

Hader was specifically told to work on various pitches at colorado springs, you can take his stats and throw them out the window.

 

I have watched him and he has not located his pitches well. Every time I watched him he couldn't locate any of his pitches, but notably his off speed stuff. He constantly had to use his fastball to just blow past hitters. Even his best games were masked by the fact AAA hitters couldn't hit his fastball. Won't work consistently at the MLB level and definitely not as a starter.

 

You can take everything and throw it out the window if you want. Clearly the Brewers don't like Hader as a starter as much as Woodruff this year. The Brewers wouldn't punish Hader for working on pitches so it is more than that. I also don't believe he was ever working on pitches that heavily in Colorado. If that was the case they would promote him to the MLB roster where he can't do that.

[Humans Need Water]

People keep harping on "Woodruff had to pitch in the same environment". Great. I'll turn that around and ask you why does Suter constantly have success in CS and outperform Woodruff when his skill set and ceiling don't come close to rivaling Woodruff's? Because he's a different pitcher - he's fastball/change mixing in a curve. CS doesn't affect his skill set. Woodruff is a different pitcher than Hader. He's mainly fastball and mixes in his secondary pitches, which don't move anywhere near as much as Hader's. Woodruff isn't focusing on developing a pitch whereas Hader was focusing on developing his changeup. And when your release point is constantly changing between outings because of your huge movement it's going to result in some terrible outings because your release point for that pitch just isn't affected, it then snowballs to your other pitches and your mechanics overall. It's partly why his numbers last year are better than this year as he wasn't focusing on developing a pitch - and look at this game logs instead of painting with a broad brush.

 

Hader

2014 - 3.3 BB9 in 103ip in A+ then threw 20ip in AA with 7 BB9

2015 - 3.0 BB9 in 104ip in AA then threw 16ip in AZFL with 3.9 BB9

2016 - 3.0 BB9 in 57ip in AA then CS happened

 

How exactly does one come to the conclusion that Hader can't throw strikes to save his life when the past 3yrs and 264 innings prove his BB9 is 3.1? Then in the same breathe you turn around and complain what a dumping ground CS is. You can't have it both ways. Of course Hader can still improve his control from where he was prior to AAA but speaking as if he's Nuke Laloosh (pre-Susan Sarandon) is just absurd and there's ZERO evidence to back it up.

 

He was the #1 LHP and one of the best overall rotation arms coming into this season and some of you think he's permanently in the pen for his future because he has zero control and doesn't "deserve" a chance to start solely because he had FOUR bad starts this year in AAA??? MY....OH...MY.

 

His other 6 starts he's combined for 33ip, 22h, 11er, 19bb, 31k, 3.00 ERA, 6.0 H9, 5.18 BB9, 8.45 K9. I didn't include his final 2 starts because he was limited to 2ip otherwise these numbers would look even better. His BB issues have clearly been explained and that aside how exactly has he been awful in AAA? 4 of Woodruff's last 6 starts have been garbage (5 on the season in 12 starts) but because his BB9 is lower that means that he deserves a shot to start and Hader doesn't? That means that Woodruff is a starter moving forward and Hader is relegated to the pen?

 

You'll see Hader in the rotation next year. Whether he ever ends up in the pen long-term is up to a combination of his performance or personal decision to move there. But he'll absolutely be given every opportunity to start and for obvious reasons. Woodruff can also sit in the Brewers pen this year just like Hader and get plenty of innings thrown while spot starting (I'd have Woodruff spot start because Hader is lefty and it benefits the team to have that as the pen option in high leverage situations). If a starter is traded and/or the Brewers have an outside chance of a playoff spot then you'll see them in the rotation gaining experience there heading into next season. Now, Stearns could also pick someone else up off waivers then option Woodruff back down if they want him to start there then come back up to spot start or if there's injury. Drake is another guy that can easily be gone. The other pen arms are more talented regardless of performance.

[Humans Need Water]

Hader was specifically told to work on various pitches at colorado springs, you can take his stats and throw them out the window.

 

I have watched him and he has not located his pitches well. Every time I watched him he couldn't locate any of his pitches, but notably his off speed stuff. He constantly had to use his fastball to just blow past hitters. Even his best games were masked by the fact AAA hitters couldn't hit his fastball. Won't work consistently at the MLB level and definitely not as a starter.

 

You can take everything and throw it out the window if you want. Clearly the Brewers don't like Hader as a starter as much as Woodruff this year. The Brewers wouldn't punish Hader for working on pitches so it is more than that. I also don't believe he was ever working on pitches that heavily in Colorado. If that was the case they would promote him to the MLB roster where he can't do that.

Release point. Release Point. Release point. It's this simple. CS is an awful environment for him and he's basically said so prior to this season. Respectfully, the Brewers might (which you don't know for fact) view Woodruff as a better starter this year but who cares. We are talking about the future. Hader fills an excellent role for the MLB team this year in the pen. And yes, it was publicly written or verbally stated in an interview somewhere that Hader was working on his change this year. Having Hader skip AAA and sit in the pen was being floated around by folks outside the Brewers org before this year because of how bad CS is. The Brewers aren't "punishing" Hader for putting him in their pen. They don't have any lefties. CS sucks for his skill set. He can step in and be an immediate upgrade over almost every pen arm. It's beyond logical.

[FVBrewerFan]

Keep in mind Woodruff pitched 158 innings, Hader 126. So it's easier to keep Woodruff as a starter all year, and he would be next man up if a starter is injured or traded. Hader's innings will still be limited, so adding him to Brewers pen makes a lot of sense. Then they can always stretch him out late in the year depending on how he's throwing, where the Brewers stand, if a starter is needed, etc. I wouldn't mind if Hader developed into a late inning guy for 6 years+.

[LouisEly]

Happy about woodruff but whoever called the LIFO approach from Stearns was spot on. Scahill was at least 3rd behind Peralta, Feliz and even Torres.

Seems to be more of the "sunk cost" approach, as the guys with the lowest committed salary are the ones shown the door first.

 

[sarcasm]Tells you what you need to know about that MBA program. The first thing you learn in B-school is you don't make decisions based on sunk costs.[/sarcasm]

[gregmag]

That was one of the crappiest games I have ever attended, and learning this after the fact makes it worse. I hate everything.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

I have to believe the plan was to keep Woodruff up for the rest of the year. Calling him up just to burn an option to send him down does not seem very smart. Now with the hamstring issue, maybe they DL him. We shall see...

[DHonks]

Woodruff is on the 10-day DL. We recalled Espino

[djoctagone]

rob scahill has been outrighted to the minor leagues.

 

i'm not clear if he's accepted the outright assignment or not--he has the right to refuse it and declare free agency.

[And That]

Scahill accepted the assignment.

[djoctagone]

woodruff started his minor league rehab assignment 15 july.

 

the brewers can keep him on a rehab assignment for up to 30 days. they could option him after those 30 days are up, recall him on 1 september, and not burn his 2017 option, because he would have spent less than 20 days optioned to the minor leagues.

 

of course, the club could choose to activate him sooner than 30 days are up--especially if there's a strong need in the rotation for his services.

[MoreTrife]

Bad bump! Was excited for split second that scahill was DFAed.

[Mudville9]

I think a lot of what we do will depend on what we do over the next couple weeks on this road trip. If we go something like 2-8, I think Woodruff comes up pretty quick. If we go 8-2, DS might want to go as long as possible and not burn the extra year.