Hader called up ......Espino optioned to triple A

[Humans Need Water]

If he doesn't improve his command and come up with a 3rd pitch he isn't going to make,it as a starter

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/majors/expect-josh-hader/

Going back to 2014 in A+ he had a BB9 of 3.3 then in 2015 it was 3 for the entire season (2.6 and 3.3 between Houston and us in AA) then last year he was 3 in AA then it blew up in AAA and continued again this year. I don't think his control is going to be an issue it seems like it's just in CS. Look at someone like Chase and his BB9 is 3.1 typically. Nobody complains about his lack of control.

 

I haven't seen any articles about this but when you have a wipeout slider like he does your release point is different in CS and on the road (in a spot where a pitch would break how it's expected too). If you're constantly adjusting your release point between starts you're going to have inconsistencies when it comes to your changeup too. Woodruff has better control than Hader to begin with but his breaking ball doesn't move anywhere near as much as Hader so he can get away with it a bit more.

 

I have no idea if Hader is staying in the rotation long-term or not for his career but he's going to be given every opportunity to stick there.

[Humans Need Water]

Not surprised even though the Brewers downplayed this lately and I agree with the move 110%

I think the downplay was in regard to him permanently being in the pen, which is what most people were assuming.

 

No they were definitely downplaying it as anything related to the bullpen. They claimed it was to "limit his innings". I said it then it didn't make any sense.

No, it was related to permanently being in the pen. Which is also what you stated at the time word leaked out last week or so. They even stated in the article they didn't do a good job communicating it as didn't expect that type of feedback to come from the fans, etc. They essentially said they were limiting his innings now working between normal starts to be up in Sept so he could pitch for the Brewers.

 

If they were 100% moving him to the pen for his career then why in the world would they not just say that? Right, because it doesn't make sense. And you cite his "5.5 BB9" yet what was it the past 3yrs in A+, AA? 3. It's blown up in CS, which everyone knows is a terrible place for pitchers in general and worse for guys with his arsenal.

[brewcrewdue80]

Hader doesn't need to be limited to single ip relief outings. With Peraltas struggles beyond 1 ip, maybe Hader gets the long relief treatment? I said something to this earlier in another thread. If every 3rd game you can get him 2IP or 4ip+ avg a week hes not losing much to his SP amounts. Id think this could be a sample til the AS break where he's sent down during and worked back to a SP and then gets his turn in September with starts. Or bullpen if the team is still vying for playoffs. You get this preview leading towards the trade deadline and can make moves with knowledge of what he does/ Brewers record around then. Are you moving some Brewer SPs? Are you acquiring any Pitching?

[monkeyman343434]

This is the exact reason they need to get the AAA team out of Colorado Springs ASAP. He wasn't able to properly develop there, how can you analyze a starting pitcher in those conditions? I feel like the MLB bullpen is his best development opportunity right now to become a MLB starter. Hopefully they allow him to go a couple of innings, and he learns how to throw strikes and attack hitters in 2 inning stints. Maybe this also allows Wily to go 1 IP outings instead of trying to have him keep going multiple innings.

[MrTPlush]

No, it was related to permanently being in the pen. Which is also what you stated at the time word leaked out last week or so. They even stated in the article they didn't do a good job communicating it as didn't expect that type of feedback to come from the fans, etc. They essentially said they were limiting his innings now working between normal starts to be up in Sept so he could pitch for the Brewers.

 

If they were 100% moving him to the pen for his career then why in the world would they not just say that? Right, because it doesn't make sense. And you cite his "5.5 BB9" yet what was it the past 3yrs in A+, AA? 3. It's blown up in CS, which everyone knows is a terrible place for pitchers in general and worse for guys with his arsenal.

 

Alright I am not really sure what you are talking about. The Brewers simply said he was only going a few innings a start to control his inning count for the year. They mentioned nothing about a move to the bullpen and actually stated they were not going to do that. On top of that they said his next start would be back to normal starting innings. Josh Hader was clearly being prepped to move in a bullpen role despite what the Brewers said at the time. I am surprised he is coming over to our bullpen so fast, but It was clear it was going to happen.

 

Why are you talking about moving Hader to the bullpen forever? I never said such a thing. I cited his BB/9 because it is terrible. Someone asked "Why not Woodruff?"....Woodruff has pitched much better this year and I would expect him to be a legitimate consideration for a starter spot at some point this year if need be. Josh Hader on the other hand has been notably worse. They aren't going to put Woodruff in the pen for that reason.

[torts]

If we keep him all year, did we avoid super2?

[MrTPlush]

If we keep him all year, did we avoid super2?

 

Never a known thing until after the season, but yes we should be in the clear.

[Boomer5]

If we keep him all year, did we avoid super2?

 

Everything I've seen says June 4th as the latest possible cut off so we should be fine

[JosephC]

I would have rather seen Wang but as JohnBriggs12 pointed out Wang has been used a lot lately. Hader's line the last two times out looks good but there was a stretch of seven appearances before that where he got shelled. Would hate to see Hader get here and have a rough start. I also think it's important that the Brewers get a major league look at ALL their legitimate MLB prospects and Wang is one of those. Hate to think that players like Cordell and Wang could get lost in the shuffle as higher-ranked prospects get the nod over legitimate, older prospects who are deserving and could prove to be solid MLB contributors.

 

Hopefully Hader will come out and be successful from day one and put all my concerns to rest.

[bork]

So who starts game 2 of the double-header on the 13th? Garza isn't eligible to return until the next day.

[brewmann04]

Who is moving up from Biloxi

[brewcrewdue80]

So who starts game 2 of the double-header on the 13th? Garza isn't eligible to return until the next day.

 

Well im certain that double headers mean a 26th man is allowed. So likely someone in minors on the 40man who's turn in rotation is either that day or day before.

[leitermab07]

If he doesn't improve his command and come up with a 3rd pitch he isn't going to make,it as a starter

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/majors/expect-josh-hader/

Going back to 2014 in A+ he had a BB9 of 3.3 then in 2015 it was 3 for the entire season (2.6 and 3.3 between Houston and us in AA) then last year he was 3 in AA then it blew up in AAA and continued again this year. I don't think his control is going to be an issue it seems like it's just in CS. Look at someone like Chase and his BB9 is 3.1 typically. Nobody complains about his lack of control.

 

I haven't seen any articles about this but when you have a wipeout slider like he does your release point is different in CS and on the road (in a spot where a pitch would break how it's expected too). If you're constantly adjusting your release point between starts you're going to have inconsistencies when it comes to your changeup too. Woodruff has better control than Hader to begin with but his breaking ball doesn't move anywhere near as much as Hader so he can get away with it a bit more.

 

I have no idea if Hader is staying in the rotation long-term or not for his career but he's going to be given every opportunity to stick there.

 

 

I hear this every time. But he has and always has had trouble with fastball control.. he was filthy in AA because of the wipeout slider.. at home or away he rarely throws a first pitch strike ..everyone has games where they get blown up at CS so I could careless about the stats... Woodruff has shown to control his pitches, especially his fastball. I am not, not, blaming CS, but it gets old blaming this place for Haders issues and Lopez issue, but they have been inconsistent with control their whole(young) careers... I love the Hader move because I think he may be a good starter, but I know he will b an elite Bullpen Lefty. Lets get that AA confidence back with him in the limited roles in the bullpen, and when the opportunity arises lets give him his opportunities... also.. I don't want anyone to complain about Knebel, the dude is getting over worked and has elite nasty stuff.. lets start to enjoy him

[JohnBriggs12]

Leave it to Counsell to be afraid to use one of the top LH pitching prospects in the game and instead uses a career minor leaguer like Drake because of a small sample of splits. Somehow I don't recall Dusty Baker being afraid to use Chapman when he first arrived with the Reds. Not comparing Headed to Chapman, but my gosh Hader is a not just a run of the mill arm either.

[pacopete4]

Yeah, what an idiot manager Counsell is. This team would be 20 games over if it wasn't for him incompetence. Just put Hader in the closers role already.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

So who starts game 2 of the double-header on the 13th? Garza isn't eligible to return until the next day.

 

Espino can. Even though he was just sent down, he can be called up within the 10 days for the 26th man of a doubleheader.

[Pugger]

I am all for this. I like the idea of us getting some of our pitching prospects up now and giving them time to develop out of the bullpen. I have been thinking this would be the best way to develop them while hopefully solidifying the bullpen.

 

Yes, of all the areas on the big club that need help the most it is the bullpen. It will be fun to see him pitch.

[Pugger]

If we keep him all year, did we avoid super2?

 

What is super2?

[Baldkin]

If we keep him all year, did we avoid super2?

 

What is super2?

 

It's an arbitration exception, basically the Brewers will gain an extra year of per-arbitration control.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/business/super-two/

 

In general, players must have accrued at least three years of MLB service time (written as Years.Days) before they can be eligible for salary arbitration. While players with 3.000+ years of service are eligible for arbitration, players with between two and three years of service may be eligible if they rank in the top 22% of service time among players with between two and three years of service.

 

There’s variation in the cutoff, but you can safely assume it will be between 2.120 and 2.150, meaning that if you keep a player down for about 65 service days in their first year, you will not have to let them pass through arbitration four times.

 

This is valuable for teams, and costly for players, because arbitration salaries are higher than pre-arbitration salaries and all future arbitration salaries are based on prior salaries. In other words, it has a ripple effect.

[Boomer5]

Leave it to Counsell to be afraid to use one of the top LH pitching prospects in the game and instead uses a career minor leaguer like Drake because of a small sample of splits. Somehow I don't recall Dusty Baker being afraid to use Chapman when he first arrived with the Reds. Not comparing Headed to Chapman, but my gosh Hader is a not just a run of the mill arm either.

 

Counsel is a serious candidate for manager of the year. To be in first place with this roster is wizardry.

 

I'd trust his judgement especially since Hader literally just arrived.

[Ennder]

I think most managers would rather ease a young guy into the game rather than throw them right into the fire. Especially when it is a starter converted to the bullpen so it is already a situation he isn't fully used to. I know he has done some RP in the minors but his routine this year is as a starter.

[JohnBriggs12]

I think most managers would rather ease a young guy into the game rather than throw them right into the fire. Especially when it is a starter converted to the bullpen so it is already a situation he isn't fully used to. I know he has done some RP in the minors but his routine this year is as a starter.

 

You missed my point. Hader is a premier talent. The guy Counsell used instead is a fringe major league pitcher. It's comparable to bringing up Braun in 2007 and sitting him in favor of Counsell. Counsell has done a fine job this year but that doesn't make him immune to criticism. They've had trouble closing out games. A lot of that is on the pitchers but some of that is on the manager. Plus in last night's game they had a 4 run lead entering the bottom of the 7th. It was not a high leverage situation until Drake was roughed up.

[pacopete4]

I think most managers would rather ease a young guy into the game rather than throw them right into the fire. Especially when it is a starter converted to the bullpen so it is already a situation he isn't fully used to. I know he has done some RP in the minors but his routine this year is as a starter.

 

You missed my point. Hader is a premier talent. The guy Counsell used instead is a fringe major league pitcher. It's comparable to bringing up Braun in 2007 and sitting him in favor of Counsell. Counsell has done a fine job this year but that doesn't make him immune to criticism. They've had trouble closing out games. A lot of that is on the pitchers but some of that is on the manager.

 

You might have a great point if Hader had been up a week. He literally met the team at the ballpark. It was okay for CC to not wanting to put him out there game one. There will be plenty of opportunities. As it was, CC was aggressive enough use Knebel for 4 outs to secure a win.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Hader is going to get his chance tonight. In all likelyhood Knebel is not available after being used for a multiple inning save, and they used 6 guys last night.

[brwrsfan]

I think most managers would rather ease a young guy into the game rather than throw them right into the fire. Especially when it is a starter converted to the bullpen so it is already a situation he isn't fully used to. I know he has done some RP in the minors but his routine this year is as a starter.

 

Four run lead in the 7th, 3 straight lefties due up. To me that would certainly qualify as a prime situation to "ease someone in". If you can't trust your top pitching prospect in what should be a very successful spot (on paper at least) why bother to bring him up?

 

Especially when your other option is Drake, who IMO should be been released long ago.