7 man pen/5 man bench vs. 8 man pen/4 man bench

[adambr2]

Giving some thought to the Brewers apparent preference to carry 8 relievers on the roster (actually 9 at the moment), I'm curious as to whether this was done more out of necessity (mediocre starters), or out of actual preference and design.

 

As far as I know, and I admittedly haven't done much research on this, it's still the preference of most teams to carry 7 relievers and 5 bench players. I even recall a Brewer team under Yost that carried 6/6 for a time.

 

If it's by design, you can understand the need for versatility, and why we feel no real need to give a player like Perez a permanent position.

 

In my opinion, 8/4 actually makes a ton of sense for a variety of reasons. First of all, your bench players are playing pretty regularly, and not just rotting away on the bench without ABs. The versatility lets you plug and play guys just about anywhere, with the exception of Aguilar, but if you have 2 to 3 guys who can play anywhere, you still have the luxury of one 'bat only' guy.

 

Secondly, and probably more importantly, you've got an extra guy in the pen to eat up innings throughout the year, easing the burden on both your rotation and pen. I recall a number of years watching a completely depleted pen just wear down in late months and struggle, and any method that helps keep them fresher and last longer in the season seems like a smart move to me. It also affords you to have a quicker hook with your starters which I think is something we're beginning to see more of around the league.

 

Is it going to burn you at some point? Sure, you've got to be more frugal about how you make your substitutions and may run out at some point in an extra inning game, but that's better than running out of pitchers.

 

I think that bigger bullpens and demand for more versatile benches may become the norm, not the exception around the league in the future. Just my $.02.

[liveforoctober]

I'm of the understanding the Brewers have had limited off days up to this point in the season so the extra arm in the pen is necessary to help alleviate stress. Once we hit mid June I think our off days will come back to normal and I'm expecting an extra bat to come up to provide more match up options at the plate offensively late.

 

Can anyone confirm that?

[NYChez]

Go with a 7-man bullpen and postpone each home game where the bullpen is stressed.

[adambr2]

Go with a 7-man bullpen and postpone each home game where the bullpen is stressed.

 

Genius, the best part is that we will have year round baseball each year with the World Series right before Spring Training.

[djoctagone]

i'm surprised they've played 8/4 for as much as they have this season.

 

factor in ryan braun's continued absences, eric thames' struggles adapting to the major league grind, and the struggles of jonathan villar and keon broxton, and it's downright puzzling.

 

the brewers' pitching has been acceptable during this skid. the offense has all but died.

[3and2Fastball]

I'd rather have a 5 man bench, especially if it means Brett Phillips staying up the rest of the year. Would prefer they have a revolving door at the back of the bullpen as opposed to Hernan Perez being our 4th outfielder

[pacopete4]

5 man bench. Means one less crappy bullpen guy CC is allowed to use.

[RockCoCougars]

Stearns needs to step in and cut Torres immediately to shake things up and also to prevent Counsel from using him in close games. Outside of a few outings, he has been terrible all season. He is like negative 1 reliever, because they often need to burn another one to clean the messes that he gets into.

[JohnBriggs12]

Stearns needs to step in and cut Torres immediately to shake things up and also to prevent Counsel from using him in close games. Outside of a few outings, he has been terrible all season. He is like negative 1 reliever, because they often need to burn another one to clean the messes that he gets into.

 

They need at least 2 quality relievers to replace the likes of Torres and Drake who keep getting chances in game situations. Hader could be one of those guys, but Counsell is babying him.

[djoctagone]

should note that the brewers are down to one position player on the 40-man that they can recall in the coming days (andrew susac). yadiel rivera, keon broxton and brett phillips all have to be optioned for at least 10 days (unless replacing an injured player).

 

given that michael blazek is making an emergency start tomorrow, it's understandable why the club would want to go back to an eight man bullpen.

[TJseven7]

I wish the metrics guys would finally get to see if the split start theory works.

 

Nelson

Anderson (when he's back)

Guerra4/suter4

Garza5/hader3

Davies

 

Knebel Swarzak Barnes hughes blazek(psuedo long) Drake (loogy only)

 

If you can infact get 6-7 from nelson anderson davies... and 8 from the 2 combos... pen could get some serious rest.

 

With our versatility in perez villar i dont mind a 4 man bench. 5 feels more comfortable though.

[djoctagone]

I wish the metrics guys would finally get to see if the split start theory works.

 

Nelson

Anderson (when he's back)

Guerra4/suter4

Garza5/hader3

Davies

 

Knebel Swarzak Barnes hughes blazek(psuedo long) Drake (loogy only).

with 13 pitchers and only 4 bench bats, you're asking for a lot of pitchers to bat for themselves later in the game.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Doesn't matter with this Brewers team which route you go - when 4 or 5 relievers in the 7 or 8 man pen are bottom of roster fodder, if you are a competitive team the reliable arms are going to be overused regardless of how many phone calls to the bullpen the manager could make. Then, even the once reliable arms become inconsistent or injured, and you're forced to make alot of questionable relief decisions.

 

IMO, that's exactly what has happened to the Brewers' bullpen lately. Even Knebel has scuffled over the last month of games...Swarzak and unleashing Hader a bit more will hopefully help, but only to a certain extent. In a perfect world I'd rather they carry fewer relievers than more, but if your position player bench has multiple guys who are swiss army knives, you can get away with 8 man pens for extended periods of the season.

[djoctagone]

assuming no other transactions before tuesday's game, and assuming jeremy jeffress is activated before said game, the brewers appear to have a 10-man bullpen and a 4-man bench.

 

granted, one of those pitchers could be held in reserve in case matt garza can't be activated wednesday, but still . . .

[djoctagone]

this will change when garza is activated thursday and when a starting pitcher is named for saturday, but for at least one game today, the brewers will carry a 9-man bullpen and a 5-man unit of non-starting position players. the brewers could not be in this position without monday's off day. having a roof has really helped the brewers keep their off days this season, plus, they've been fortunate to have only two road games rescheduled.

[djoctagone]

Also, with 4 days off in the second half of (August), I wonder if we'll see a 7 man bullpen.

possibly, but working against the brewers is that the only current relievers that can be optioned are jacob barnes, josh hader and corey knebel.

 

however, the brewers could be looking to add a player to their full 40-man roster by 31 august for postseason eligibility, and dfa-ing a reliever out of options like oliver drake or carlos torres would open up both a 25-man and 40-man roster spot. an extra position player could be recalled, and any player in the minor league system could be added to the 40-man roster but immediately optioned (but then recalled in early september and not have his option burned).

 

in the interest of preserving depth, what would work out more conveniently for the brewers is for a reliever to go down with a very minor injury the week of 13 august that would only require 10 days on the disabled list. at that point, the brewers could afford to recall a position player and be covered with a seven-man bullpen and two off days that week.

 

personally, i'd be okay with optioning barnes for 10 days just to use him sparingly over that time and refresh him for september . . . especially if jeremy jeffress and anthony swarzak are dealing.

[KeithStone53151]

Generally depends on a couple factors. How deep your starting pitching tends to go, how effective your bullpen is, and versatility of position/bench players. Perez and Sogard having great flexibility along with Thames able to play outfield gives us the positional versatility to roll with a 4 man bench. Our starting pitching has been very good, but the bullpen has struggled and the middle relief guys can't be counted on right now to work a full inning. Hughes/Torres/Drake/Barnes have gotten blown up too often lately. Also Counsel overmanaging lately leads me to think we need 8 in the bullpen right now.

 

I tend to agree that Phillips will find his way up towards the middle of August and we'll go to a 7 man pen. We might even go with a 4 man rotation for a bit depending on how guys look. Come september we'll get a couple bullpen reinforcements from AAA and have plenty of options down the stretch.

 

I also tend to agree that one of Drake/Torres/Hughes is on the chopping block by mid-late august. Probably not Hughes, I would think one of the other two.

[djoctagone]

two off days this week. an off day in each of the final two weeks of august before september roster expansion.

 

when neil walker is activated, a reliever has to be dfa'd to make room for him. there's no need to carry eight relievers during this stretch.

 

then option barnes and recall wang, ensuring that neither burns an option.

[pacopete4]

two off days this week. an off day in each of the final two weeks of august before september roster expansion.

 

when neil walker is activated, a reliever has to be dfa'd to make room for him. there's no need to carry eight relievers during this stretch.

 

then option barnes and recall wang, ensuring that neither burns an option.

 

No need to carry 5 starters either roster guru.

[rickh150]

Any chance Suter is not even hurt.... just needed a guy to send down. Picked out the worst pitcher lately... A couple off days this week. A "strain" is like the perfect bogus injury...

[djoctagone]

Any chance Suter is not even hurt.... just needed a guy to send down. Picked out the worst pitcher lately... A couple off days this week. A "strain" is like the perfect bogus injury...

not a chance. suter, having already burned his 2017 option, could have been optioned to make room on the 25-man.

 

the optional assignment would've required a minimum of 10 days, as does the disabled list. suter will be earning major league service time and the major league portion of his pay while on the disabled list.

[rickh150]

Any chance Suter is not even hurt.... just needed a guy to send down. Picked out the worst pitcher lately... A couple off days this week. A "strain" is like the perfect bogus injury...

not a chance. suter, having already burned his 2017 option, could have been optioned to make room on the 25-man.

 

the optional assignment would've required a minimum of 10 days, as does the disabled list. suter will be earning major league service time and the major league portion of his pay while on the disabled list.

 

Good points... thanks.

[OnTheBlack]

Any chance Suter is not even hurt.... just needed a guy to send down. Picked out the worst pitcher lately... A couple off days this week. A "strain" is like the perfect bogus injury...

not a chance. suter, having already burned his 2017 option, could have been optioned to make room on the 25-man.

 

the optional assignment would've required a minimum of 10 days, as does the disabled list. suter will be earning major league service time and the major league portion of his pay while on the disabled list.

 

 

Of course there's a chance. 10 days of service time probably never even cross David Stearns mind. What may have crossed his mind would be sending a guy down who's pitched well for most of the year...probably well over his head and helped keep the Brewers in it and given that he's likely to come back just in order to clear a roster spot for the next 10 days and taking one and a half big league checks away from the guy. Again, something that would be of almost no consequence to the big league club, but for a guy who has never made any money and who's earned it this year, is probably pretty significant.

 

I doubt there's anything wrong with Suter other than convenience with regards to roster manipulation.