What could Braun bring from anyone? (2017 version)

[MrTPlush]

Yup...first thing I thought of when he got nabbed for PEDs. Of course that is a lot of speculation without much proof. This also probably isn't the place for it though as it is just going to offend a lot of people who believe Braun's PED use was a one time thing.

 

Heck, I think it's entirely possible given the connections to Miami that he was using all the way back in '07 when he signed his 45M dollar deal and wanted to ensure he secured a big payday rather than go year to year in case he was discovered. But none of us will ever know. It's all a matter of opinion.

 

 

Could be true. I'm in the court that doesn't care much about PED use in that era because there was such a high volume using. Braun would've got money either way. I also am one that thinks he was breaking down and used to recover. Again, just opinion though. No one will actually know.

 

Im sure that is the main reason a lot of players use PEDs. It helps players recover faster and stay fresh which then helps you put up better statistics not having to deal with fatigue etc. Of course spiking your testosterone will also help you become stronger etc. too even if you just want it for injury issues.

 

Maybe someday PEDs are more widely accepted, but right now they aren't. Maybe 40 years from now we all laugh at how Braun was treated.

[MNBrew]

Really this all goes to show how foolish it is to give a long-term extension into a player's mid-to-late thirties. There was absolutely no reason to give Braun that second extension in 2011. The one in 2008 took him through his age 31 season and was great value. The Brewers could have traded him this year for a nice piece, and they wouldn't have to worry about a declining Braun blocking one of their talented outfield prospects. Now they're stuck with him in 2019 and 2020 when he's likely in decline, killing them defensively, and keeping a Brinson, Ray, Clark, or Phillips out of the lineup.

If his previous extension went through his age 31 season, wouldn't that have meant he would have been a free agent after 2015? Meaning he would have had to have been traded by the 2015 season/trading deadline when he was coming off the 2013 PED suspension/lying debacle and a declining, post-PED .777 OPS 2014 season? I'm not sure he was very tradeable at that point. On the flipside, the extension occurred pre-PED scandal when he was on pace to be a HOF player, which if you take out all the mess that occurred after the extension, it seems pretty reasonable.

I think it's quite safe to say that Braun's 2014 season was quite injury-affected, as his performance since would corroborate. If by "declining" you meant "trending downward," that's simply not accurate.

 

One other thread-related comment from a different angle: Obviously there's no shortage of theories -- as this astoundingly nearly-60 page thread proves -- but whether or not Braun's tradeable ultimately is still merely speculation because we don't know what other GMs actually think or what offers Stearns has received.

[brewerfan82]

Really this all goes to show how foolish it is to give a long-term extension into a player's mid-to-late thirties. There was absolutely no reason to give Braun that second extension in 2011. The one in 2008 took him through his age 31 season and was great value. The Brewers could have traded him this year for a nice piece, and they wouldn't have to worry about a declining Braun blocking one of their talented outfield prospects. Now they're stuck with him in 2019 and 2020 when he's likely in decline, killing them defensively, and keeping a Brinson, Ray, Clark, or Phillips out of the lineup.

If his previous extension went through his age 31 season, wouldn't that have meant he would have been a free agent after 2015? Meaning he would have had to have been traded by the 2015 season/trading deadline when he was coming off the 2013 PED suspension/lying debacle and a declining, post-PED .777 OPS 2014 season? I'm not sure he was very tradeable at that point. On the flipside, the extension occurred pre-PED scandal when he was on pace to be a HOF player, which if you take out all the mess that occurred after the extension, it seems pretty reasonable.

I think it's quite safe to say that Braun's 2014 season was quite injury-affected, as his performance since would corroborate. If by "declining" you meant "trending downward," that's simply not accurate.

 

One other thread-related comment from a different angle: Obviously there's no shortage of theories -- as this astoundingly nearly-60 page thread proves -- but whether or not Braun's tradeable ultimately is still merely speculation because we don't know what other GMs actually think or what offers Stearns has received.

My point was that it didn't look good having a "less than normal" season after getting busted for PEDs. Injury or otherwise, he needed to prove that his performance up to that point in his career wasn't due to his cheating and having an off year didn't allow him to prove otherwise, which would have left a lot of question marks for other teams considering trading for him.

[tmwiese55]

He put up his best season after he was initially busted, but it was overturned. Have to think no way he was using in that season. His poor seasons after the suspension have purely been due to the injuries, if healthy he's as good of a hitter as anyone not named Trout. Of course, the PEDs of today are primarily used to keep fresh/healthy rather than the bulk up ones of the steroid glory days so not being able to use anything (presumably he's being extremely cautious on any supplements at this point) hurts him more than others since he's so injury prone. This is where I think the rules should be lightened actually, I'd prefer to see the best players on the field and I don't see why MLB should have by far the strictest testing program in the world. Roll it back a bit to allow more daily maintenance type supplements while keeping out the pure anabolic bulk steroids of the McGuire/sosa/Bonds and prior era.

 

Also, we have no idea how much he used prior to the time he was caught. He had a nagging injury while the team was in the playoff run going for the title, if any time to go for a bit extra it was then. Probably safe to assume he popped some extra things while hurt (keep in mind doctors actually prescribe these things to people recovering from injuries) throughout his career but I don't think you can really think his actual strength/skill/hitting was greatly enhanced, other than missing less games and I suppose and being less tired. But like ya'll said, we'll never know.

[monty57]

He put up his best season after he was initially busted, but it was overturned. Have to think no way he was using in that season. His poor seasons after the suspension have purely been due to the injuries, if healthy he's as good of a hitter as anyone not named Trout. Of course, the PEDs of today are primarily used to keep fresh/healthy rather than the bulk up ones of the steroid glory days so not being able to use anything (presumably he's being extremely cautious on any supplements at this point) hurts him more than others since he's so injury prone. This is where I think the rules should be lightened actually, I'd prefer to see the best players on the field and I don't see why MLB should have by far the strictest testing program in the world. Roll it back a bit to allow more daily maintenance type supplements while keeping out the pure anabolic bulk steroids of the McGuire/sosa/Bonds and prior era.

 

Also, we have no idea how much he used prior to the time he was caught. He had a nagging injury while the team was in the playoff run going for the title, if any time to go for a bit extra it was then. Probably safe to assume he popped some extra things while hurt (keep in mind doctors actually prescribe these things to people recovering from injuries) throughout his career but I don't think you can really think his actual strength/skill/hitting was greatly enhanced, other than missing less games and I suppose and being less tired. But like ya'll said, we'll never know.

 

I agree completely. I'm no doctor, and the science behind these things is way over my head, but if HGH is mainly used for recovery purposes and does not truly enhance performance, then I don't see why it is banned while something like cortisone is widely accepted.

 

Now, I understand that it is banned, so using it should get someone in trouble, but the people in charge of putting the "banned list" together might want to revisit the list if this is the case. Heck, every medical procedure "enhances recovery" and helps get people back on the field quicker.

 

That said, I have done some travelling to other states, and if Braun's name is brought up the first thing people talk about is his PED usage. GM's are more informed than "average Joe," but it could certainly have a negative effect on whether or not he gets traded.

[tmwiese55]

Right, these little supplements that are available over the counter to general publics are banned and grounds to be shunned from society. But a laser surgery to correct your vision is ok, or taking a ligament from a dead person and putting into you body is perfectly ok. And you mentioned cortisone, which is another example.

[MrTPlush]

Synthetic Testosterone helps athletes heal fast so they feel better and can train more. This is more a secondary effect with the main thing being building up muscle/strength faster. So Braun may have wanted it for healing purposes, but it was still helping him to build muscle mass.

[KCBrewerfan34]

How do you explain Braun's year last year then? It was pretty solid, even better if he would have played in 10-20 more games .

[MrTPlush]

How do you explain Braun's year last year then? It was pretty solid, even better if he would have played in 10-20 more games .

 

Are you referring to me? I am just stating a fact. Synthetic Testosterone helps build muscle/strength. I am not saying it helped him or that he was better than he would have been without it. Keeping him healthy/refreshed when he otherwise wouldn't have been is way more important than any difference in strength.

 

Also you can't really point to 2012 and prove he is just fine without them. Because for all we know after getting caught he moved onto anabolic steroids that are undetectable. Which, yes, do exist and are likely used more than you would think in professional sports.

 

It is a slippery slope and probably a good reason teams are a bit shy with his specific (and unique) PED past.

[tmwiese55]

Cmon man, after barely getting away with it you think he was dumb enough to double down and start taking stronger real steroids while knowing MLB was out to get him? I know you're a hater on him but be realistic.

 

That said, hard to believe he was dumb enough to take something during the playoffs knowing everyone gets tested once in the playoffs. Either the mishandling did lead to the failed test or he was dumb enough to take it while in the stadium right before getting tested. When he could've just waited until he got home so that it would pass through his system, as he'd presumably been doing up to that point. Or I suppose he just forgot or didn't know about the mandatory playoff test and though he was home free since he'd already done his 3 or 4 tests on the season. Which is maybe why he did it that year to begin with, he knew he didn't have any tests left that season.

 

Or maybe they all just knew they were taking such small amounts that it wouldn't go above the allowed ratio, which in my case could be something allowed. If you're taking so little of something that it doesn't even trip the most stringent test in the world, then how about we just allow it. And if you're dumb enough to do it right before the test like he must've done, then yea nail him.

 

After all this time the thing I'm most surprised about is that he either didn't know of the playoff test and/or was just that dumb to take it in the stadium when he could've just taken it at home. For a guy as smart as he seems it's just hard to believe he made such a dumb mistake. So who knows, maybe he would be dumb enough to get cleared then start shooting up real anabolic steroids.

[Boomer5]

I wouldnt doubt that these guys are still taking something. The technology is always advancing and the money is too big to not try and get an edge.

 

As they say, follow the money.

[tmwiese55]

I wouldnt doubt that these guys are still taking something. The technology is always advancing and the money is too big to not try and get an edge.

 

As they say, follow the money.

 

And so have players throughout the history of baseball and in any other sport. Boggles my mind why people obsess about in baseball but don't care about it in other sports. And boggles my mind why people are freaked out about steroids in baseball, but not moving in the fences, juiced balls, Lasik, Tommy John, Cortisone, other currently legal supplements. Or amphetamines and other known forms of cheating in the past in baseball.

 

And in other sports are much more physical competitions. Take a read of the NBA testing program some time, it's laughable. And then wonder how Wade can look like his body is done 4 years ago and still be going now. Or be broke one game, then have 2 days off in Miami and come back and drop 30+ the next playoff game looking like he's 25 again. Or why LBJ took 2-3 weeks off in the middle of last season to go to Miami. And look at these guys in the NFL ripping each other's heads off and everyone just looks the other way on what they're putting in their bodies.

 

I'll get off my rant now hopefully. Overall it was surprising how little rumors we heard on Braun this offseason. I guess the offers were still just garbage, so we're just going to keep playing him rather than give him away.

[tmwiese55]

I wouldnt doubt that these guys are still taking something. The technology is always advancing and the money is too big to not try and get an edge.

 

As they say, follow the money.

 

And so have players throughout the history of baseball and in any other sport. Boggles my mind why people obsess about in baseball but don't care about it in other sports. And boggles my mind why people are freaked out about steroids in baseball, but not moving in the fences, juiced balls, Lasik, Tommy John, Cortisone, other currently legal supplements. Or amphetamines and other known forms of cheating in the past in baseball.

 

And in other sports are much more physical competitions. Take a read of the NBA testing program some time, it's laughable (unless it was improved in the new CBA, i haven't heard). And then wonder how Wade can look like his body is done 4 years ago and still be going now. Or be broke one game, then have 2 days off in Miami and come back and drop 30+ the next playoff game looking like he's 25 again. Or why LBJ took 2-3 weeks off in the middle of last season to go to Miami. And look at these guys in the NFL ripping each other's heads off and everyone just looks the other way on what they're putting in their bodies.

 

I'll get off my rant now hopefully. Overall it was surprising how little rumors we heard on Braun this offseason. I guess the offers were still just garbage, so we're just going to keep playing him rather than give him away.

[brewcrewdue80]

He put up his best season after he was initially busted, but it was overturned. Have to think no way he was using in that season. His poor seasons after the suspension have purely been due to the injuries, if healthy he's as good of a hitter as anyone not named Trout. Of course, the PEDs of today are primarily used to keep fresh/healthy rather than the bulk up ones of the steroid glory days so not being able to use anything (presumably he's being extremely cautious on any supplements at this point) hurts him more than others since he's so injury prone. This is where I think the rules should be lightened actually, I'd prefer to see the best players on the field and I don't see why MLB should have by far the strictest testing program in the world. Roll it back a bit to allow more daily maintenance type supplements while keeping out the pure anabolic bulk steroids of the McGuire/sosa/Bonds and prior era.

 

Also, we have no idea how much he used prior to the time he was caught. He had a nagging injury while the team was in the playoff run going for the title, if any time to go for a bit extra it was then. Probably safe to assume he popped some extra things while hurt (keep in mind doctors actually prescribe these things to people recovering from injuries) throughout his career but I don't think you can really think his actual strength/skill/hitting was greatly enhanced, other than missing less games and I suppose and being less tired. But like ya'll said, we'll never know.

 

 

What if you move to allow it, and suddenly it's 70HR seasons by dozens. .600+OB by dozens. Aaron Hill hits 55 in a season? Showing that rather than the rampant idea of usage ongoing, the truth is it was who you thought did steroids only and not rampant. Now, what do you do? You've put asterisks on this generation of players. Are you banning the substances again? I'd assume the door was open for HOF inductions for the steroids users of the past. Now do you remove the obvious? Let's take Robinson Cano. And with two seasons of use hits 45 and 60HRs with video game numbers. Someone who needs at least 2 more great seasons to put HOF talk as a reality. Now because of the ban again, does he become a won't allow in because of the usage? Borderline previously and just predict that his numbers without the use wouldn't have gotten him to cross the borderline threshold.

 

Let's say the PED players and much of baseball fabricated the idea over 50% of players were using, and it was in order to take flack off the most obvious. When in reality it was only 40-50. Smoke and mirrors. Guys like Brady Anderson or Brett Boone who used for 1 season but less than 2 and seeing how abnormal their stats were and stopped because knowing the whispers of the steroid talk were becoming louder and louder.

 

I do agree that a player taking steroids does improve strength/speed on the account of being able to continue training through injuries. Instead of losing some muscle mass or speed they are able to maintain it. Which may have been Braun's usage all awhile, just a maintenance workout program he was able to keep, and not a program to grow muscle or train harder for speed. I've seen what 2months away from gym does to my body vs 2months constant upkeeping. 2months away always seems like 4months of results lost.

[tmwiese55]

Good post. My quick response would be that what was going on in the 90s was definitely overboard and needed to be toned down. I'm just saying we might have overcompensated a bit. Where now we're lumping in many guys who didn't even knowingly take something wrong but didn't do their due diligence on a supplement any normal guy can get over the counter because it's not illegal and not a big deal. So now guys like that have been labeled the same as blatant cheaters/dopers. Maybe move the needle a on what supplements are allowed a bit in the player's favor so that if someone is caught you know they're doing something intentional and significant. Or in a case like the FL scandal, they're taking such a small amount that it wasn't even making guys fail the test. Basically, a strategy of we're going to cut some slack and give you the benefit of the doubt, but if you do go over the line we're nailing you.

[MrTPlush]

Cmon man, after barely getting away with it you think he was dumb enough to double down and start taking stronger real steroids while knowing MLB was out to get him? I know you're a hater on him but be realistic.

 

That said, hard to believe he was dumb enough to take something during the playoffs knowing everyone gets tested once in the playoffs. Either the mishandling did lead to the failed test or he was dumb enough to take it while in the stadium right before getting tested.

 

Please key in on the fact I was referring to better(more risky health wise) PEDs that the current testing system can't track down. They exist it is no secret. We are talking about the same guy who said he took steroids in the first place to live up to his contract etc. Is it really hard to believe that he wanted to sweep the PED thing under the carpet by going out there without missing a beat? The guy had a huge ego problem throughout that entire ordeal.

 

I do think he was that dumb. That failed test was because of himself and only himself. If I had to guess he probably started taking the drugs soon after the All Star game and what was probably a drug test there. It probably started out as experimental and after it gave him incredible results he probably kept wanting more more more.

 

Moral of the story his PED use makes teams not want him or want to pay way less for him.

 

And for the record I am not a Braun hater. I just don't try to sugar coat his PED debacle.

[MrTPlush]

Where now we're lumping in many guys who didn't even knowingly take something wrong but didn't do their due diligence on a supplement any normal guy can get over the counter because it's not illegal and not a big deal. So now guys like that have been labeled the same as blatant cheaters/dopers. Maybe move the needle a on what supplements are allowed a bit in the player's favor so that if someone is caught you know they're doing something intentional and significant. Or in a case like the FL scandal, they're taking such a small amount that it wasn't even making guys fail the test. Basically, a strategy of we're going to cut some slack and give you the benefit of the doubt, but if you do go over the line we're nailing you.

 

How do you know any of that is true? Just curious. Like how do you know they didn't know? How do you know it isn't significant? How do you know it was over the counter stuff? How do you know the Biogenesis players were taking small amounts?

 

We the fans barely get any details related to any PED bust. Usually it is, "Such and such tests positive for PEDs. Player says they have no idea how it got there, but they accept punishment with apology." End of story.

 

There is a line by the way. You get this list of drugs that are all banned. You have a billion dollar company that can research anything you might want to take and likely pay for it. Heck anyone past the 5th grade probably knows how to read an ingredient list. There is literally no excuse.

[brewcrewdue80]

Good post. My quick response would be that what was going on in the 90s was definitely overboard and needed to be toned down. I'm just saying we might have overcompensated a bit. Where now we're lumping in many guys who didn't even knowingly take something wrong but didn't do their due diligence on a supplement any normal guy can get over the counter because it's not illegal and not a big deal. So now guys like that have been labeled the same as blatant cheaters/dopers. Maybe move the needle a on what supplements are allowed a bit in the player's favor so that if someone is caught you know they're doing something intentional and significant. Or in a case like the FL scandal, they're taking such a small amount that it wasn't even making guys fail the test. Basically, a strategy of we're going to cut some slack and give you the benefit of the doubt, but if you do go over the line we're nailing you.

 

About guys unknowingly taking supplements that are illegal. I have been through a vitamin shoppe, gnc and pre-workout mixes for the most part, along with a few vitamins while searching on the shelfs. They have a disclaimer stating a warning something like "using this product is not legal in sports with drug testing."

 

Id think the products sold on shelves for the general public, keep an awareness to list a warning like that. Nothing like being exposed as selling sports nutritions products that test positive as illegal with no warning coming out the woodworks. Your clientele would disappear afraid to use your product and end up popping an illegal test.

[tmwiese55]

I guess I'm basing it off several people saying it, if you want to pessimistic that everyone is corrupt and bad so be it. For Braun, that is about the most negative view one could have on it. Of course, we don't know. But I just can't imagine he's touched a thing since he got caught with the failed test. Maybe I just think about like how I would in his spot, I almost just ruined my life but got a reprieve, never gonna risk it again. He probably thought he was home-free because he never thought MLB would go out of their way and illegally by info and bribe witnesses to bust a bunch of guys who didn't fail tests. But yea, maybe he was a complete psycho and decided to double down on it. We'll never know.

 

And the Biogen I thought it was pretty openly talked about what they were doing. Taking these small T doses that go in and out of your system really quickly and designed to not be detected because it's so small. It seemed pretty out there to me. But sure, if you want to believe that guys in the modern era facing the strictest testing in the world are doing the equivalent or stronger more advanced steroids than the players of the 90s when the stuff wasn't tested for and wasn't even illegal in baseball, go right ahead but just doesn't seem logical to me.

 

None of this changes the stuff i was really talking about, the double standard in baseball vs other sports and steroids vs all other forms of cheating and performance enhancement. I suppose I just try to think the best in people and don't try to act like I'm perfect and better than and judge these guys, as if we all haven't done questionable things in our lives. These guys are still just people and under a ton of pressure/stress trying their best.

[MrTPlush]

Steroids are considered worse in baseball in large part because MLB treats them that way and partially the media destroying players over it. Just like most things in society today.

[tmwiese55]

Yup, that's where it all starts. And that media spin has gotten the public believing almost every player in MLB is/was a user (so the public is angry an untrusting instead of just enjoying the game like they should be) when in reality I'd guess it is less prevalent in baseball than the other major sports, and probably Olympic type sports too. But the public just has blinders on for those sports. Just makes no sense to me, though I'd assume after more and more old timey writers retire it will go away.

[jerichoholicninja]

We've veered off topic but I think people just look for reasons to hate baseball too. It's boring, nothing happens, games are too long, players are paid too much, steroids are ruining it, etc.

[MrTPlush]

We've veered off topic but I think people just look for reasons to hate baseball too. It's boring, nothing happens, games are too long, players are paid too much, steroids are ruining it, etc.

 

I was thinking the same, but I didn't really seem to care because the off season has hit a new high of boredom.

[monty57]

Moral of the story his PED use makes teams not want him or want to pay way less for him.

 

That's part of it. He can also only be traded to a few teams, most of which don't need him. He has a contract that pays him a substantial amount of money into his decline years, and there was an overabundance of right-handed power hitters on the market this offseason.

 

This was the last chance before 10/5 hits, and although there's still time, it's looking like he won't be traded. I don't hate that he will likely be a Brewer for life, it just means that we will probably have a logjam in the OF in the not-too-distant future, and in a year or two it could lead us to trading away someone who is younger, cheaper and more productive than Braun because Braun will be immovable and we will have a lot of good, young OFs.

[MrTPlush]

Yah it would take the perfect storm to get a trade done on many levels. As long as he stay healthy and produces I don't really care too much. The logjam is a valid concern as is health issues that could lead to missed time or fall in production. It would be nice if he could play some average 1B, but probably an unlikely wish. Unfortunate to get stuck with a $20mil player which the Brewers probably would prefer not to have in the OF in a few years.

 

Not being able to trade him doesn't really help win a World Series...probably harms them to an unknown extent. I guess you get the aesthetic value of having maybe the best Brewers ever for 4 more years....but I guess I'm not all about that.