2017 bullpen

[LouisEly]

I don't openly complain about my boss so my boss can hear me.

And neither did Cravy. He said it out loud where media reporters heard him, and the media reporters published it; he didn't say it to Stearns. What if your friends or co-workers published your comments in the media?

 

Cravy didn't Tweet it, he didn't post it to Facebook, he didn't take out an ad in the paper. He said it in the locker room where media reporters heard it, and the media chose to publish it. The media didn't have to publish it; players say many things that reporters don't publish. But reporters chose to publish it (probably because they knew it would get a lot of attention).

 

I guess it just seems weird for him to be so upset.

He's upset because the difference between major league and minor league pay is $2500/day. If he gets called up six weeks from now when someone gets hurt, he missed out on $105,000. And remember, he was lucky if he made $2500/month in minor league ball before he made the majors.

 

I can't understand why people don't think he should be upset. $2500/day is a LOT of money, especially when you put in several years of making very little to try to get to this point. Cravy spent 6.5 years in the minors - making very little money - before his first callup in 2015. Yeah, the majors pay a lot - but the minors don't.

[adambr2]

I don't openly complain about my boss so my boss can hear me.

And neither did Cravy. He said it out loud where media reporters heard him, and the media reporters published it; he didn't say it to Stearns. What if your friends or co-workers published your comments in the media?

 

Cravy didn't Tweet it, he didn't post it to Facebook, he didn't take out an ad in the paper. He said it in the locker room where media reporters heard it, and the media chose to publish it. The media didn't have to publish it; players say many things that reporters don't publish. But reporters chose to publish it (probably because they knew it would get a lot of attention).

 

I guess it just seems weird for him to be so upset.

He's upset because the difference between major league and minor league pay is $2500/day. If he gets called up six weeks from now when someone gets hurt, he missed out on $105,000. And remember, he was lucky if he made $2500/month in minor league ball before he made the majors.

 

I can't understand why people don't think he should be upset. $2500/day is a LOT of money, especially when you put in several years of making very little to try to get to this point.

 

I'm not saying he shouldn't be upset, but plenty of others are in the exact same position as him. You can be upset while still using tact.

 

Yes, he's obviously losing out on a lot of money compared to MLB players. He's also going to make a lot more money compared to almost all his colleagues in the minors because he has a spot on the 40 man roster and the Brewer organization took a chance on him and gave him an opportunity in the majors.

 

I don't envy the decisions Stearns has to make. They're not easy ones, but I can guarantee you he makes every decision on borderline roster players with the intention of having the organization's best interests in mind. Cravy is a borderline roster player -- neither his skills nor his past credentials are enough to guarantee him a spot.

[ZBTMP]

Games aren't won or lost based on projections; they are won and lost based on performance. Cravy not only performed better in spring training, he performed (arguably) better (out of the bullpen) than Barnes last season.

 

FIP, IMO, irrationally overvalues home runs. Cravy last year gave up three home runs; two were in the Great American Bandbox to Joey Votto and Brandon Phillips, the other was at Colorado to Charlie Blackmon (who hit 35 last year). (Barnes gave up one HR, at home to Jose Lobaton.) That, IMO, is going to irrationally inflate Cravy's ZIPs projections.

 

Projection systems arent irrationally unfair to Cravy because of 3 home runs. Sure it factors but we have a far larger sample size than that. Performance wins and loses games but how do you predict performance. Projection systems based off of historical stats seem to be a reasonable way.

 

But Barnes also throws the ball 3-4 mph faster, generates swinging strikes 14.8% of the time (far more than Cravy), and walk FAR less batters. Stearns should be fired now if he thinks Tyler Cravy will outpitch Barnes

[trwi7]

Cravy got a $75,000 signing bonus that I'm sure he burned through pretty quickly after taxes/agent commission and considering how little minor league players make. The earning potential in the majors is for a very short period of time and when his baseball career comes to an end he's going to be pretty far behind others the same age in experience/credentials in getting a 9 to 5 job which will likely make it more difficult to get one or at least a decent paying one.

 

So I don't blame him for doing what he did. Especially when he was apparently told it was an open competition in spring only to be have the rug pulled out from under him with an "lol, jk" from the GM and manager. He'll do fine salary wise in MiLB this year but once again, that's not going to last very long after he retires and/or is removed from the 40 man roster.

[MVP2110]

My guess is this was just a misunderstanding. Stearns and Counsell probably told the relievers they would be competing for a spot in the bullpen, Cravy probably took this to mean that if he pitches better than specific players he would make the team over them. But Stearns knows that there are better ways to judge how a player will perform this upcoming season other than Spring Training performance. His performance this spring was probably one of many variables Stearns and co. looked at whereas Cravy thought it would just be if he was one of the best 7 or 8 in spring he would make it. Obviously here too we are only hearing the players side of the story, the Brewers will not come out and throw shade at Cravy even if he is wrong in what he said. They will stay politically correct (as they should) and handle in house.

[And That]

Should also be noted that he more likely than not could finish his college degree on the Brewers' dime. That's a pretty standard thing that the Brewers include with signing bonuses.

[MrTPlush]

I don't openly complain about my boss so my boss can hear me.

And neither did Cravy. He said it out loud where media reporters heard him, and the media reporters published it; he didn't say it to Stearns. What if your friends or co-workers published your comments in the media?

 

Come on now. What happens when a player says something to a reporter? They publish it publically where their boss will see it and it will be public. Also that is a silly hypothetical. A media reporters job is to publish things publically...not a friends job. Comparing a media reporter plublishing comments vs. a random friend publishing comments is wrong.

 

I can't believe people feel bad for Cravy and think the Brewers actually did anything to him. There have been countless players being delayed their call-up costing them $20mil+ in the future that act more mature than Cravy. Also saying he lost out on $400k is probably false. It is likely he will be called up in the next 1-2months dramatically decreasing that figure. If he doesn't get called up then he probably didn't deserve to be on the opening day roster anyway.

[reillymcshane]

The merits of Cravy making the team aside, I really don't care how upset he was about the decision. To me, it shows a lack of class and in a lot of ways, simple decency.

 

To infer that other people have treated him as less than human is a serious charge.

 

To say that another person - in this case his boss - lacks integrity - is an immensely serious accusation. That's not just an attack on the organization - but an attack on another human being.

 

You have a problem with a person - your boss in this case - have the guts to go into his office and say those things to his face. Don't do it through other sources. Don't do it so that you might be misconstrued. Don't do it so you embarrass and hurt another human being so it makes you feel better. And certainly don't do it front of others - because what he said isn't an innocent moment where he didn't realize who was next to him. He knew who was standing around him. He knew it would get reported. Walk away if you're so upset. Grab a bat and hit some water coolers.

 

Next, don't wuss out by blaming it on being the "ULTIMATE COMPETITOR." (His quotes). That's an excuse? I want to win so I'm allowed to be a jerk to other people because of it? That's crap. And this was a pseudo apology - apologizing for offending people - not for actually what he did. Have the guts to actually apologize. Name the names of the people you attacked - apologize to them.

 

This BS apology bothers me more than what he actually said the first time. Because people do make mistakes. People do lash out. People do say things in the heat of the moment. Just have the courage to admit what you did was classless.

 

I should be clear I understand Cravy venting his frustration in public - especially if his accusations about Stearns and organization have merit. As I said earlier, people say things in the heat of the moment. They are not robots who always can control their emotions. And if Stearns or Counsel or whomever lied to him - that's wrong. If the organization deceived him - that's wrong. But there's better ways to address your grievances than shouting like a spoiled teenager about how horrible the world has been to him. You're accusing another human being of lacking integrity. That's a big deal. Integrity is something critical to that person's job - and let's face it - on a personal level, who wants to have that leveled at them. It's got to sting.

 

And understand that I don't let Stearns or the organization off the hook. Are your communication skills so crappy that a player talks like this about you in public? Did you lie to a player? If that's the case, then you better clean things up or that kind of stuff can poison an organization. It creates resentment and divisiveness. Not exactly the clubhouse culture you want to nurture.

 

In the end, I don't really know the story. Maybe Stearns was a major league jerk. Maybe Cravy was overreacting. Maybe not. So many times it's poor communication. Perhaps Stearns thought he clearly told Cravy why they were doing what they were doing. Maybe Cravy wasn't listening at that point. Or maybe Stearns was vague and dismissive. Maybe Cravy DID say all the same things he said in public to Stearns. Only those guys know what was said. I only know what Cravy has said in public, and I found it less than admirable. Especially his follow up non-apology - which is just crap in my book.

 

As I read what I write, I feel like I'm being hard on Cravy. But I think the reason is because he was the one who brought this forward. He chose to make a personal attack on others - and that's crossing a dangerous line in my book. He could have made it about so many other things (such as the fact he deserved to be on the opening day roster), but he chose not to.

[adambr2]

The merits of Cravy making the team aside, I really don't care how upset he was about the decision. To me, it shows a lack of class and in a lot of ways, simple decency.

 

To infer that other people have treated him as less than human is a serious charge.

 

To say that another person - in this case his boss - lacks integrity - is an immensely serious accusation. That's not just an attack on the organization - but an attack on another human being.

 

You have a problem with a person - your boss in this case - have the guts to go into his office and say those things to his face. Don't do it through other sources. Don't do it so that you might be misconstrued. Don't do it so you embarrass and hurt another human being so it makes you feel better. And certainly don't do it front of others - because what he said isn't an innocent moment where he didn't realize who was next to him. He knew who was standing around him. He knew it would get reported. Walk away if you're so upset. Grab a bat and hit some water coolers.

 

Next, don't wuss out by blaming it on being the "ULTIMATE COMPETITOR." (His quotes). That's an excuse? I want to win so I'm allowed to be a jerk to other people because of it? That's crap. And this was a pseudo apology - apologizing for offending people - not for actually what he did. Have the guts to actually apologize. Name the names of the people you attacked - apologize to them.

 

This BS apology bothers me more than what he actually said the first time. Because people do make mistakes. People do lash out. People do say things in the heat of the moment. Just have the courage to admit what you did was classless.

 

I should be clear I understand Cravy venting his frustration in public - especially if his accusations about Stearns and organization have merit. As I said earlier, people say things in the heat of the moment. They are not robots who always can control their emotions. And if Stearns or Counsel or whomever lied to him - that's wrong. If the organization deceived him - that's wrong. But there's better ways to address your grievances than shouting like a spoiled teenager about how horrible the world has been to him. You're accusing another human being of lacking integrity. That's a big deal. Integrity is something critical to that person's job - and let's face it - on a personal level, who wants to have that leveled at them. It's got to sting.

 

And understand that I don't let Stearns or the organization off the hook. Are your communication skills so crappy that a player talks like this about you in public? Did you lie to a player? If that's the case, then you better clean things up or that kind of stuff can poison an organization. It creates resentment and divisiveness. Not exactly the clubhouse culture you want to nurture.

 

In the end, I don't really know the story. Maybe Stearns was a major league jerk. Maybe Cravy was overreacting. Maybe not. So many times it's poor communication. Perhaps Stearns thought he clearly told Cravy why they were doing what they were doing. Maybe Cravy wasn't listening at that point. Or maybe Stearns was vague and dismissive. Maybe Cravy DID say all the same things he said in public to Stearns. Only those guys know what was said. I only know what Cravy has said in public, and I found it less than admirable. Especially his follow up non-apology - which is just crap in my book.

 

As I read what I write, I feel like I'm being hard on Cravy. But I think the reason is because he was the one who brought this forward. He chose to make a personal attack on others - and that's crossing a dangerous line in my book. He could have made it about so many other things (such as the fact he deserved to be on the opening day roster), but he chose not to.

 

I really don't have anything more to add after reading this. Nailed it in every possible way.

[dacbrewers]

Honestly no one knows what was said behind closed doors except for Cravy, Scahill, Counsell and Stearns. Obviously something set off Cravy in that meeting. Not saying its right to make some of those comments. Its a classic non-thinking rant, and in the end, cooler heads will prevail and all parties will move on. If there was a pattern of this behavior from Cravy, I would be concerned, but I don't think that's the case.

[jerichoholicninja]

Jungmann pitched well and cravey will get a chance

 

It's not Jungmann making the team ahead of him that has him and Scahill upset. It's Milone and Barnes. Both Cravy and Scahill not only performed well in Arizona, but last year with Brewers.

 

I'm glad he popped off. It's time to take some shine off the Theo Epstein wannabe Stearns.

 

(eyeroll emoji)

[JimH5]

I can't believe people feel bad for Cravy and think the Brewers actually did anything to him. There have been countless players being delayed their call-up costing them $20mil+ in the future that act more mature than Cravy. Also saying he lost out on $400k is probably false. It is likely he will be called up in the next 1-2months dramatically decreasing that figure. If he doesn't get called up then he probably didn't deserve to be on the opening day roster anyway.

 

The Brewers did do something to him, IF they lied to him as he indicated.

 

Stearns will play the options game and manipulate service time and do what he can to maximize his "inventory" of players. But I can see how that would anger a guy who thinks he deserved a spot.

 

Reilly summed it up well. I'm understanding of Cravy's situation and his comments were so strong that it shakes my automatic assumption that Stearns & co. are awesome. They could be. But we don't know that for sure.

[MVP2110]

Jungmann pitched well and cravey will get a chance

 

It's not Jungmann making the team ahead of him that has him and Scahill upset. It's Milone and Barnes. Both Cravy and Scahill not only performed well in Arizona, but last year with Brewers.

 

I'm glad he popped off. It's time to take some shine off the Theo Epstein wannabe Stearns.

 

(eyeroll emoji)

 

Watching tonight's game, it reminded me of how last year Tommy LaStella refused to report to the minors after being sent down. So maybe this a similarity between Stearns & Epstein.

[homer]

I can't believe people feel bad for Cravy and think the Brewers actually did anything to him. There have been countless players being delayed their call-up costing them $20mil+ in the future that act more mature than Cravy. Also saying he lost out on $400k is probably false. It is likely he will be called up in the next 1-2months dramatically decreasing that figure. If he doesn't get called up then he probably didn't deserve to be on the opening day roster anyway.

 

The Brewers did do something to him, IF they lied to him as he indicated.

 

Stearns will play the options game and manipulate service time and do what he can to maximize his "inventory" of players. But I can see how that would anger a guy who thinks he deserved a spot.

 

Reilly summed it up well. I'm understanding of Cravy's situation and his comments were so strong that it shakes my automatic assumption that Stearns & co. are awesome. They could be. But we don't know that for sure.

 

 

This is going to sound cruel but at the end of the day we are talking about a guy who is bullpen filler on what is at best a .500 team. Yeah it sucks getting lied to but Stearns is not in a position to have guys on the roster just to be nice to them. His job is to gather assets and build a champion. Period. End of story. I think people that feel this type of situation somehow makes Milwaukee a less attractive place for free agents are entitled to their opinion, but most free agents aren't coming here anyway and I sincerely doubt it will prevent the Brewers from signing a guy to an extension.

 

You want to compare him to Theo? When Theo took the Cubs job, they had a sit-down with the manager. They asked him about every single guy on the team and every single guy in the high minors. Then they canned him the next day (more or less) and hired someone better. Thems the breaks.

[JimH5]

Them might be the breaks, but if your boss told you that you'd be earning 1/6th your expected salary, you might react in a way that some people would find unprofessional.

 

And unlike most of us, who can shop our talents elsewhere, he's locked in. He can't just go work for someone else. If it's working for a liar, and being shipped to the one park in minor league baseball that is the most difficult for pitchers, I can see why someone would get angry.

 

I've not known Cravy to be a hot head before. So this is eye opening, if nothing else. It could be out of bounds frustration, but it could be something real.

[clancyphile]

Whether he felt justified or not... I think Cravy has arguably made himself some clubhouse poison - and I'd probably be looking to deal him in Stearns' place.

 

This was unprofessional, and it does reflect on him. Especially since he is, at most, a 10th or 11th man on a pitching staff. I can find players similar to him without the drama.

[Boomer5]

I expect Zach Davies had a sympathetic ear in regards to Cravy. It's not the first time that I think Stearns sometimes forgets he's managing people.

 

I agree. Theo can get away with keeping Bryant down to save money, Stearns hasn't earned that same level of respect.

 

The bottom line was the players thought this was an open competition when it clearly wasn't.

[ZBTMP]

The bottom line was the players thought this was an open competition when it clearly wasn't.

 

Thats not clear at all. He most certainly was in competition for a bullpen spot. He didn't definitively outpitch Jungmann. Hughes becoming available was unforeseen (though I don't much like him either). Barnes should have been and apparently was exempt for being better at every pitching criteria: K%, BB%, HR%, Swinging Strikes%, GB%, Hard Contact%, velocity, etc. (besides maybe the ability to pitch multiple innings). Milone was apparently exempt because of his handedness and having the threat of a lefty. He may not have splits but bench players on the other team certainly will. (For the record I think he sucks and am not thrilled with his inclusion on the team).

 

Basically, Im struggling to come with a lie that Stearns/Counsell could have told him or would have had any incentive to tell him. "Have an ERA under 3 in spring and you'll make the team" "We are going to ignore all past evidence and make roster decisions solely how everyone pitches in their dozen innings this spring". Im doubting thats how the conversation went. Its OK for Cravy to be upset he got cut, but specifically calling out the organization as being dishonest is going well beyond that. Beyond unnecessarily pissing off his boss, he comes off as lacking perspective and over inflated self-worth to me at least.

[FVBrewerFan]

The bottom line was the players thought this was an open competition when it clearly wasn't.

 

Then it's his fault for taking that too literally. He's a grown man that understands the concept of options, or given his AAAA talent he should. He has options, others don't.

 

I'm not bothered by anything he said, I just think he's making himself look like a fool. He was /is upset and popped off, made a "public person semi-apology" as I call it and made it worse. Nothing Tyler Cravy can say will upset me as a fan, he's ...you know...Tyler Cravy. But he does look really ignorant when he implies 9-5 workers don't get bent over all the time, lied to, treated with no respect, etc. I mean didn't he ever see the movie 9 to 5?

[dacbrewers]

When comparing Barnes vs. Cravy, most people overlook that fact Cravy started games and Barnes didnt. If you look at mlb relief numbers from all of last year and spring, Cravy has lower era, fip, babip, whip and swing and miss rate. Barnes has 2 options left. Cravy has none.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=rel&lg=all&qual=10&type=1&season=2016&month=0&season1=2016&ind=0&team=23&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=2,d

[adambr2]

I expect Zach Davies had a sympathetic ear in regards to Cravy. It's not the first time that I think Stearns sometimes forgets he's managing people.

 

I agree. Theo can get away with keeping Bryant down to save money, Stearns hasn't earned that same level of respect.

 

 

It's not really a respect or seniority based issue. I highly doubt that Bryant thought, 'Well, this is potentially going to cost me millions down the road. Good thing it's a highly tenured and respected GM and not a newbie, or I might be upset about this.'

[ZBTMP]

If you look at mlb relief numbers from all of last year and spring, Cravy has lower era, fip, babip, whip and swing and miss rate. Barnes has 2 options left. Cravy has none.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=rel&lg=all&qual=10&type=1&season=2016&month=0&season1=2016&ind=0&team=23&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=2,d

 

Thanks for the link, but am I missing something? Barnes appears to be superior to reliever Tyler Cravy in all those things with the exception of ERA and BABIP. And that seems pretty much negligible unless you are telling me that a .213 BABIP and a 0% HR/FB with a 38% hard contact rate is sustainable.

[DuWayne Steurer]

It's fine to be frustrated. It's even fine to say "I'm really disappointed that I didn't make the team. I feel like I deserved that spot, and I outperformed the other guys"

 

Saying stupid stuff like "I want to be treated like a human" is just......stupid.

 

Does Tyler think people who work 9 - 5 jobs don't get lied to? The company I work for SWORE they would never outsource jobs, and they outsourced jobs in 2013. I was told by my supervisor in 2014 I was all but assured that I was in line for a trainer/coach position, I just had to cross t's and dot i's, and the spot went to someone with more seniority.

 

Companies/employers do what is in their own best interest every single day. And if that includes either changing plans later, and having that be interpreted as lying...... well Tyler's in for a rude awakening.

 

Be treated as a "human"? I get it that 86K is a far cry from what he will/would make on a MLB roster, but what does that even mean? Not get lied to? Plans change, every day. The plan changed when Hughes became available, and for whatever reason, Milone's handedness is more important than Cravy's 11 IP worth of statistics here in spring. Maybe this was communicated poorly to Cravy, but the important thing to point out here is he is *owed* nothing more from the organization than the paycheck that he is guaranteed from whatever level he is playing at and the other benefits of such.

 

He can say whatever he wants.... that's his right. But if he wants to have some kind of career at the MLB level, he should probably understand that there will probably/possibly be consequences to saying crappy things about his employer when he gets demoted in a field where you don't get to pick who you work for.

[dacbrewers]

If you look at mlb relief numbers from all of last year and spring, Cravy has lower era, fip, babip, whip and swing and miss rate. Barnes has 2 options left. Cravy has none.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=rel&lg=all&qual=10&type=1&season=2016&month=0&season1=2016&ind=0&team=23&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=2,d

 

Thanks for the link, but am I missing something? Barnes appears to be superior to reliever Tyler Cravy in all those things with the exception of ERA and BABIP. And that seems pretty much negligible unless you are telling me that a .213 BABIP and a 0% HR/FB with a 38% hard contact rate is sustainable.

Cravy's whip is lower. And percentage Lob. Which is pretty important for a reliever. Going forward we will see how their numbers look with more innings pitched. Limited samples, I agree.

[And That]

Cravy had an unsustainably low BABIP and an unsustainably high LOB% last year. Both are likely to regress when he returns to MLB. If he wants to return.