2017 bullpen

[Boomer5]

These guys will just have to fight through it. Not much help is on the horizon. I like Wang and Cravy but it's not realistic to expect three rookies with Hader to lead the bullpen to playoff caliber.

 

I see more waiver claims and back end of the pen churning.

[Brewer Fever]

All I know is this seasons bullpen is strike one for me with Stearns.

 

Ooh, you sure told him. And just how many strikes does he get before you demand he be fired?

 

[SomewhereInTime]

I feel bad for Torres. He's been criminally overused, last year he pitched a ton, and so far this year I think he's on pace for even more innings. It was pretty ridiculous that he was the first guy out of the pen today (Not that it mattered for the game result today in that everyone was terrible, if it were up to me I would have used Peralta first out of the pen today but we all saw how that went). Part of the reason we need changes in the pen is because we need to survive the season. I don't want to see a young reliever like Barnes end up throwing 80 innings this year, same with Knebal. Having guys like Feliz be the 7th man in the pen really sucks because at best he can only cover 1 inning, and that's at best, often times his outings end up like today where he's so ineffective he can't even last an inning.

[SomewhereInTime]

Okay so Cravy is hurt. Archer and Wang come on up. Suter can stay too for all I care. All I know is this seasons bullpen is strike one for me with Stearns.

 

I don't have an issue how he put it together. Often times bullpens are built by just throwing things at the wall and hoping for the best.

 

What I do have a major issue with however, is not making changes when the guys you have are terrible. The leash has been WAY too long with these guys. We took some guys off the scrap heap, it didn't work. Cut your losses and try something else. We have at least 4-5 guys in the minors that can be called up. They'd have to be really really bad to do much worse than what we have.

 

I mostly agree, but it does look pretty bad right now that Blazek and Cravy didn't make the team out of spring.

[pacopete4]

All I know is this seasons bullpen is strike one for me with Stearns.

 

Ooh, you sure told him. And just how many strikes does he get before you demand he be fired?

 

 

Three? Just stating that for me, and you don't have to agree, this seasons bullpen issues are a big red flag for me in terms of Stearns evaluating players. He's swung and missed on pretty much every bullpen arm. But when it's all said and done, no need to be a tool.

[Lathund]

Okay so Cravy is hurt. Archer and Wang come on up. Suter can stay too for all I care. All I know is this seasons bullpen is strike one for me with Stearns.

 

I don't have an issue how he put it together. Often times bullpens are built by just throwing things at the wall and hoping for the best.

 

What I do have a major issue with however, is not making changes when the guys you have are terrible. The leash has been WAY too long with these guys. We took some guys off the scrap heap, it didn't work. Cut your losses and try something else. We have at least 4-5 guys in the minors that can be called up. They'd have to be really really bad to do much worse than what we have.

 

I mostly agree, but it does look pretty bad right now that Blazek and Cravy didn't make the team out of spring.

 

I'm not too bothered with that tbh. Especially in the case of Blazek; 1.9 WHIP, 5.9 BB/9 in 2016. Having him rediscover his form in the minors is fine. Cravy on the other hand (like Suter) has certainly performed better, well enough to get more opportunities. He was a victim of having minor league options.

 

But look at it another way; Cravy and Blazek are still here. We had the option to have them start the season in the minors and get called up if need be. Who would they have replaced? Barnes and Knebel have options, but they should obviously be on the 25-man. The rest didn't have options, so getting rid would have meant not being able to call on them again. Now with the way some of them have pitched, we would not have wanted to anyway, but that's only apparent in hindsight. Torres had a good 2016. Feliz was an elite reliever at one point, worth a flier to see if he could come anywhere close to that again. Hughes has a 2.9 ERA over 7 seasons inside this division. Milone served as the long reliever/backup SP option, decent track record at a reasonable cost. By having a look at some of these guys without options first, we have the ability to evaluate both sets of players.

 

So yeah, I'd say that while some decisions there hasn't turned out well and look bad in hindsight, they weren't bad decisions with the information available at the time. More crucially, these overlooked players are till just a phonecall and a plane ticket away. So I don't dwell on the past decisions, I just want to see some progress being made from now on.

 

As for what I'd like to see done. Quite a lot, but I also don't think changing half the bullpen at once is the best idea. 1-2 changes at a time, let the remaining underperformers see less time as a result, hope that maybe some improvement can be had. If not, make changes there too.

 

Feliz: If anyone is offering anything at all in a trade, even if we have to eat some salary, take it. Otherwise DFA. We're not resigning him anyway, not part of the future. Great heat on his FB, but he can't command it and batters have no trouble hitting it. Beyond that, he's got nothing.

 

Torres: DFA. Did really well for us last season, and I like the idea of a workhorse in there. But if the horse can't pull the cart anymore....

 

Suter and Cravy to replace them. Makes sense evaluating the guys on the 40-man already first. I haven't seen enough of Barbosa, Wang, Archer, Blazek and the likes to know who deserves the first shot among them, but I'd say one of them is next in line after the first two.

[JosephC]

First guy that should be gone is Oliver Drake. He's 30 years old and had virtually no track record before getting to Milwaukee (less than 40 MLB innings at the time). He has a 5.16 ERA and 1.59 WHIP. At least Torres has a track record of success and proven that he can be an effective MLB reliever. Same with Feliz. I'm not saying that upgrades cannot be found for those players too but they would be down on my list when starting to make bullpen moves. Torres needs a solid 5-7 days off right now and then we'll see if he can get himself worked out.

 

As much as I hate to say it, after Drake the next guy to go would likely be Peralta. I'd probably DFA him, hope to find a trade partner, and if not just release him. As much as I'd like to keep him around to try to develop him as a reliever, he's likely to make nearly 5 million next year which makes him a top non-tender candidate. I'd be a bit more optimistic with him if he had shown anything as a legitimate bullpen option up until now, but so far we've gotten an 8.44 ERA, 1.78 WHIP performance. It's questionable if there is enough time between now and the end of the season (and I realize there is still 3 1/2 months left) for him to prove he's worth a near 5 million price tag next year. I'm all for letting him go if it gets into early July and he's still struggling.

 

I'd probably have Feliz at #3 on the list of bullpen options that should be replaced.

[JohnBriggs12]

First guy that should be gone is Oliver Drake. He's 30 years old and had virtually no track record before getting to Milwaukee (less than 40 MLB innings at the time). He has a 5.16 ERA and 1.59 WHIP. At least Torres has a track record of success and proven that he can be an effective MLB reliever. Same with Feliz. I'm not saying that upgrades cannot be found for those players too but they would be down on my list when starting to make bullpen moves. Torres needs a solid 5-7 days off right now and then we'll see if he can get himself worked out.

 

As much as I hate to say it, after Drake the next guy to go would likely be Peralta. I'd probably DFA him, hope to find a trade partner, and if not just release him. As much as I'd like to keep him around to try to develop him as a reliever, he's likely to make nearly 5 million next year which makes him a top non-tender candidate. I'd be a bit more optimistic with him if he had shown anything as a legitimate bullpen option up until now, but so far we've gotten an 8.44 ERA, 1.78 WHIP performance. It's questionable if there is enough time between now and the end of the season (and I realize there is still 3 1/2 months left) for him to prove he's worth a near 5 million price tag next year. I'm all for letting him go if it gets into early July and he's still struggling.

 

I'd probably have Feliz at #3 on the list of bullpen options that should be replaced.

 

I'm all for replacing Drake with Wang on the active roster. Drake's value is as a pseudo lefty specialist. Why not an actual lefty with some upside left? Wang's taken well to a bullpen role in AAA. He's been getting both RH and LH hitters out but has been especially tough on LH hitters with a .150 BAA and a 0.77 WHIP.

 

I think you are overstating Torres' track record. He had two solid years in New York when they didn't contend, then he wasn't so good when they were contenders in 2015. His stuff isn't all that good, and now he's totally lost confidence. It's time to part with him.

 

Feliz stuff is still worth hanging on to for a bit as long as he's not pitching meaningful innings.

 

Maybe they can get something for Wily. So hard to see a guy with his talent not succeed.

[Ennder]

Bullpen guys are just tricky. Oliver Drake has actually been the 2nd best RP on the team by peripherals. Knebel, Drake, Barnes look like viable bullpen arms. Hughes is ok as a junk time type of guy. The rest of the bullpen has just been awful. Torres maybe gets a bit more leash because he has been better in the past. It is such a small sample to go on that you have to generally be patient.

[Lathund]

Somehow forgot about Peralta; agreed, he should be one of the first to go. $5m (Or more) salary, limited remaining team control. And to even get to where that's an issue, he needs to be a decent option out of the pen.

 

As for Drake, I'm very much in the minority here but I'd keep him over Feliz, Torres and Peralta. I wouldn't say the limited track record is a strike agianst him tbh. The sample size is still small enough for Drake to both outperform or underperform his past record, and it could be worth taking some time to see which way it goes. Drake has a 3.50 FIP and 3.48 DRA; both better predictors of future ERA than current/past ERA. And better than anyone on the team except Barnes and Knebel. Left-handers have a .662 OPS against him; and that's with a .348 BABIP so it's not about getting lucky either.

I'm not trying to claim he's some kind of star, or that we can't improve on him. But to me, there are 2-3 players in the bullpen who are a higher priority to improve on. Use Drake mainly against lefties and he'll be fine.

[JohnBriggs12]

Bullpen guys are just tricky. Oliver Drake has actually been the 2nd best RP on the team by peripherals. Knebel, Drake, Barnes look like viable bullpen arms. Hughes is ok as a junk time type of guy. The rest of the bullpen has just been awful. Torres maybe gets a bit more leash because he has been better in the past. It is such a small sample to go on that you have to generally be patient.

 

Which peripherals are those? His OPS against in games "late and close" is 1.053. Hitters are batting .364 with 2 outs and RISP. RH hitters are an astounding .400/.488/.686 against him. That leads to Counsell having to take him out and replace him with another bad reliever against RH hitters. His value is nil.

[Austin Tatious]

The CS stats are tough to gauge, so without further research, I'm not sure who is pitching well there.

 

It seems like Wang should be up here, lefty or not. Maybe Blazek too as an experienced guy. Cravy does not have great numbers and I thought he was on the DL.

 

Bubba Derby just advanced but he's a guy to keep an eye on because he's been excellent in the pen. May be a very rapid move to get him up here. Wilkerson at double AA has been doing fine.

 

They are still working on Taylor Williams. He may be more of a 2018 guy.

 

I guess I'm in favor of Wang for sure, and maybe Blazek.

 

Peralta may be our most frustrating home grown pitcher since Manny Parra. The amount of sunk cost we've wasted on hoping for his development has been staggering. Feliz is below atrocious. Drake is useless. Hughes has some level of track record which could save him. Torres was very solid last year so you may hope he can work something out, I guess.

[reillymcshane]

Bullpen guys are just tricky. Oliver Drake has actually been the 2nd best RP on the team by peripherals. Knebel, Drake, Barnes look like viable bullpen arms. Hughes is ok as a junk time type of guy. The rest of the bullpen has just been awful. Torres maybe gets a bit more leash because he has been better in the past. It is such a small sample to go on that you have to generally be patient.

 

Which peripherals are those? His OPS against in games "late and close" is 1.053. Hitters are batting .364 with 2 outs and RISP. RH hitters are an astounding .400/.488/.686 against him. That leads to Counsell having to take him out and replace him with another bad reliever against RH hitters. His value is nil.

While right handers have pounded Drake this year, I don't believe his minor league history shows him to have any sort of huge split numbers. He's got all of 22 innings this year. I wouldn't judge the guy just on those. There are hundreds of minor league innings (and some other major league innings the past couple of years) to consider.

 

I am not defending Drake. To be honest, I really don't know that much about him. But I don't know if 22 innings of stats should paint an entire picture of a guy.

[reillymcshane]

 

Peralta may be our most frustrating home grown pitcher since Manny Parra. The amount of sunk cost we've wasted on hoping for his development has been staggering. Feliz is below atrocious. Drake is useless. Hughes has some level of track record which could save him. Torres was very solid last year so you may hope he can work something out, I guess.

This sums things up pretty good.

 

Peralta has been immensely frustrating. I was really disappointed when he came into this season overweight. He knew his job was on the line, but he seems to not have had the commitment to his team and his career. He would not be the first.

 

Wily's reliever experiment is at 10.2 IP. I don't know how long it will last. A change of scenery is probably the best thing for him. Maybe getting cut will make him realize he actually needs to commit to the game to be successful.

[Roderick]

 

I am not defending Drake. To be honest, I really don't know that much about him. But I don't know if 22 innings of stats should paint an entire picture of a guy.

 

You have to remember that Baltimore gave up on him, so it is more than 22 innings, when you consider their opinion.

[reillymcshane]

 

I am not defending Drake. To be honest, I really don't know that much about him. But I don't know if 22 innings of stats should paint an entire picture of a guy.

 

You have to remember that Baltimore gave up on him, so it is more than 22 innings, when you consider their opinion.

My post was regarding his splits. He's getting pounded by righties - and I was pointing out that those 22 innings of getting pounded by righties isn't necessarily how he has been in his career. As noted, I'm not defending his performance. Just noting that the crazy split numbers are not necessarily how he has always been.

[dacbrewers]

As bad as some of the relievers have been, the brewers will use a lifo approach. Scahill will be first to go down and Stearns will stay with his guys because he wants to prove that they will be better at some point.

[dacbrewers]

Blake Parker was a guy the Brewers grabbed and tried to stash but was picked up by the Angels has been better than most of our relievers.

[Ennder]

As bad as some of the relievers have been, the brewers will use a lifo approach. Scahill will be first to go down and Stearns will stay with his guys because he wants to prove that they will be better at some point.

 

Scahill has been the worst pitcher in the bullpen this year. In fact filtering for 10 IP he is close to the worst pitcher in all of baseball on the year. Don't fall into the trap of small sample ERA. less than 3 K/9, almost double the walks as strike outs. Lots of contact against. He has been just awful.

[brwrsfan]

Scahill wasn't the guy I would have DFA'd first, but he's been pretty awful. I really, really think they also need to bring up Wang and get rid of basically anyone. We need another lefty out there. Wang is destroying them in AAA.

[djoctagone]

brent suter recalled as the 26th man for today's doubleheader. the last time the brewers recalled a 26th man, they didn't send him down after the doubleheader; they kept tyler cravy for the rest of the season and optioned andy wilkins.

[superfly]

Another day another Peralta implosion. Please get rid of him and spare us the pain of watching this anymore.

[SomewhereInTime]

Scahill wasn't the guy I would have DFA'd first, but he's been pretty awful. I really, really think they also need to bring up Wang and get rid of basically anyone. We need another lefty out there. Wang is destroying them in AAA.

 

Scahill did have some bad peripherals this season. I mean there are plenty of other terrible pitchers in our pen, we just need to get rid of them too. There's no salvaging anything from Feliz. They can probably give up on Peralta soon too. This is his third disappointing season in a row and if anything he's been worse in the bullpen. I kind of thought with the move to the pen he would let it fly and his velocity would be up, that hasn't been the case. Torres likely needs a DL stint with the amount of innings he threw last year and what he's done so far this season, he's been completely ineffective for weeks.

[brwrsfan]

Scahill wasn't the guy I would have DFA'd first, but he's been pretty awful. I really, really think they also need to bring up Wang and get rid of basically anyone. We need another lefty out there. Wang is destroying them in AAA.

 

Scahill did have some bad peripherals this season. I mean there are plenty of other terrible pitchers in our pen, we just need to get rid of them too. There's no salvaging anything from Feliz. They can probably give up on Peralta soon too. This is his third disappointing season in a row and if anything he's been worse in the bullpen. I kind of thought with the move to the pen he would let it fly and his velocity would be up, that hasn't been the case. Torres likely needs a DL stint with the amount of innings he threw last year and what he's done so far this season, he's been completely ineffective for weeks.

 

I think just about everyone here would agree with you. The question is...what are we waiting for?? These moves should have been made weeks ago IMO. It's just gotten to the point of being ridiculous now.

[SomewhereInTime]

Well a move has to be made today, Garza is coming off the DL and is scheduled to start, hopefully they make one of those moves and don't just send Espino packing after being back for one day. I wouldn't mind seeing Espino get a shot in the pen for a while, same with Woodruff when he comes off the DL after hopefully a short stint.