2017 bullpen

[SandyTolan]

I do think they need to make at least one bold move bullpen now, and that would be cutting Feliz and bringing up Hader, or maybe Taylor Williams, as you say, adambr. Because if their starting pitching can hold up - if Nelson is for real, Anderson can stay good (even if not THIS good), Guerra is what he was last year, Davies continues to come around, and eventually Woodruff can replace Garza - then they have a legit starting rotation. Then, when Braun comes back, they really have a shot at a wild card or even the division. So, they need to make some moves now to shore up the pen. Starting with Hader and Williams, and maybe eventually Wang, Blazek, and/or Cravy: That could be a very decent bullpen to go with a solid rotation and strong offensive unit. Who'da thunk it?

[pacopete4]

I just can't see calling up Hader as a relieve this early. Maybe in July after the all star break but I think he needs his work as a starter too.

[SandyTolan]

See your point, brew4u, but they're already limiting Hader to 2IP per start to save his innings. And since they've done that he has been excellent. Why not have him do that in a relief role in Milwaukee now, and help shore up the bullpen?

[pacopete4]

See your point, brew4u, but they're already limiting Hader to 2IP per start to save his innings. And since they've done that he has been excellent. Why not have him do that in a relief role in Milwaukee now, and help shore up the bullpen?

 

If that's going to be the rest of the season I definitely agree but I thought someone mentioned that it was just a couple time thing.

[FVBrewerFan]

I do think they need to make at least one bold move bullpen now, and that would be cutting Feliz and bringing up Hader, or maybe Taylor Williams, as you say, adambr. Because if their starting pitching can hold up - if Nelson is for real, Anderson can stay good (even if not THIS good), Guerra is what he was last year, Davies continues to come around, and eventually Woodruff can replace Garza - then they have a legit starting rotation. Then, when Braun comes back, they really have a shot at a wild card or even the division. So, they need to make some moves now to shore up the pen. Starting with Hader and Williams, and maybe eventually Wang, Blazek, and/or Cravy: That could be a very decent bullpen to go with a solid rotation and strong offensive unit. Who'da thunk it?

 

I guess it depends what you mean by "now." On or before All star break? Yes, if these guys are still inconsistent. Someone may even be DFAd before that if they have a couple more bad outings.

 

Williams would be a great option, but I have a feeling they may shut him down early this season. It is his first year back after TJ, so I'm sure they'll stick to the plan with him, whatever it is.

 

Hader, the plan is to continue developing him as a SP. They won't bring him up and put him in the pen. Maybe in September, that would make sense.

 

Blazek, Cravy... we've seen that movie before. No problem if they get a chance, I just don't see the need to rush a change from one mediocre pitcher to another. At least right now, today.

 

Wang, well, I'm curious about Wang. LH and has some pitches that work for him.

 

Important to note, the Brewers staff knows far more about all these guys than we do. When it's time, changes will be made. A lot a factors go into these decisions. As has been mentioned, they have already made changes in the BP.

[dacbrewers]

Drake is essentially a lefty specialist with righties posting a .468 wOBA against him so far this year. He cannot be counted on to pitch full innings.

So he is useful against lefties? The splits seem like an SSS anomaly based off his minor numbers

 

Hughes has command problems and with his minuscule strikeout rate will never really be above replacement level.

His career BB% is 8%. That seems fine to me.

 

Torres has a FIP of 4.58 and xFIP of 4.99 through 30.1 innings this season

And if you expand the sample size to include last season's numbers; he has 112 innings of 3.2 ERA and 3.98 FIP. Both of these have to factor in the decision.

 

Feliz has absolutely no command of any off speed pitch and this has lead to an abysmal season. Time to cut their losses and move on.

At a point in time sure, but if the Brewers still feel like they can make adjustments, I'm fine not throwing in the towel without a worthy replacement.

 

Wang and Cravy definitely have faults but both are better options than what we have currently.

How so? Guys with 4.5+FIPs in AAA with 4.5+ ERA projections and fringe stuff don't seem like options at all to me.

 

Its Colorado Springs...check out what Thornburg did while he was there...Era above 9.

Cravy's era last year in relief for Brewers was below 1.00 and you don't give him chance...I say if your not going to bring up the guy, release him or take him off 40 man...plenty of other options available.

 

"Blazek cannot succeed at the MLB level with a double digit walk rate."

 

But Drake and Hughes can?

 

Drake can strike out guys at a well above average clip and Hughes can get ground balls at on elite level. Blazek cannot do those things.

[Lathund]

See your point, brew4u, but they're already limiting Hader to 2IP per start to save his innings. And since they've done that he has been excellent. Why not have him do that in a relief role in Milwaukee now, and help shore up the bullpen?

 

If that's going to be the rest of the season I definitely agree but I thought someone mentioned that it was just a couple time thing.

 

Someone, forgot if it was the CS manager or the Brewers farm director, said that it was precisely because they wanted to keep him as a starter that they did this. Not wanting to increase his innings pitched from last year by more than 15% or so. With the major league season lasting longer than the minor league seasons, they would rather do it now than be "forced" to have him sit out in September if he gets called up. I imagine it could affect the end of the season in the minors as well. Had they been wanting to convert him to the bullpen, surely it would have made more sense to not have him start the games. Nor, I imagine, would they play him every 5th day only.

[dacbrewers]

Problem with Hader is walks...last time I checked he led the PCL league. At a point when the Brewers fade, bringing him up for some starts couldn't hurt.

[dacbrewers]

Seeing how Knebel is performing, it will be interesting next year when he's arbitration eligible, how much the Brewers offer.

[ZBTMP]

 

Its Colorado Springs...check out what Thornburg did while he was there...Era above 9.

Cravy's era last year in relief for Brewers was below 1.00 and you don't give him chance...I say if your not going to bring up the guy, release him or take him off 40 man...plenty of other options available.

 

 

Great, when Thornburg was rehabbing an injury and focusing on mechanics.... Thornburg also has a history of great stuff and command, Cravy not so much. Davies, Guerra, Barnes, Knebel all pitched comfortably below 4.5 FIP. Cravy's ERA last season was the definition of a SSS fluke propped up by a unsustainable strand rate and only used in low leverage situations. He is a swing man, not much else and only if he is carrying a 8+ k/9 rate. If Stearns is making roster decision based off of ERAs in 22 inning sample sizes he has no business being a GM.

[dacbrewers]

Thornburg pitched several years at AAA and never did well. Interesting that Cravy in now pitching in later innings at AAA and is probably the only pitcher in organization that hasn't given up a run on the road, two months into season. Guess he's been working on stuff too.

[dacbrewers]

I would rather see Blazek up for a spot start than Espino...He has looked pretty fantastic in his starts at AAA. All of his pitches seem to be dialed in.

[adambr2]

I would rather see Blazek up for a spot start than Espino...He has looked pretty fantastic in his starts at AAA. All of his pitches seem to be dialed in.

 

I'd be all for it if he was still in the 40. But he's not. If you're going to jettison someone from the 40 for another SP it might as well be Woodruff.

[monty57]

The problem that will always be present for relievers is that they pitch so few innings, it's hard to judge them. Any player, from superstar to scrub will have good streaks and bad streaks, and with so few innings, a bad streak for a reliever can make their stats look absolutely horrible.

 

I understand the emotional reaction of "get rid of the bums," but if we followed that throughout the team, Nelson and Anderson would have been dumped a long time ago. So, I get why the team is trying to take some of the emotion out of it. Fans are rarely patient, but management needs to exercise some caution and try to make the most rational decision possible in a somewhat chaotic season.

 

There have been some valid points as to why some of the guys might be worth keeping. I'll say:

 

-Hughes has been a ground-ball machine because he has great control at the bottom of the strike zone. This year, the strike zone was raised, and that has really hurt him. In his last outing he was a different pitcher, using a high heater and a low curve to fool hitters. Let's see if that continues.

 

-Drake has been much better against lefties than righties, so as long as we don't have a LHP in the pen, just use him as your "LOOGY" and he should be alright

 

-Torres was a solid pitcher last season, and was pretty good up until his last four outings, three of which have been bad. Maybe there's something wrong, or maybe he's just going through a "bad stretch" but he shouldn't be given up on.

 

I'm not opposed to moving people, and we're probably at a point where we should start looking at bringing some guys up from the farm, but we need to take a deep breath. The moves management has made currently has the Brewers tied for first place when most didn't think that was possible, so I find it hard to say they're throwing away the season. Let's see how things play out... some moves are going to happen.

[dacbrewers]

 

Its Colorado Springs...check out what Thornburg did while he was there...Era above 9.

Cravy's era last year in relief for Brewers was below 1.00 and you don't give him chance...I say if your not going to bring up the guy, release him or take him off 40 man...plenty of other options available.

 

 

Great, when Thornburg was rehabbing an injury and focusing on mechanics.... Thornburg also has a history of great stuff and command, Cravy not so much. Davies, Guerra, Barnes, Knebel all pitched comfortably below 4.5 FIP. Cravy's ERA last season was the definition of a SSS fluke propped up by a unsustainable strand rate and only used in low leverage situations. He is a swing man, not much else and only if he is carrying a 8+ k/9 rate. If Stearns is making roster decision based off of ERAs in 22 inning sample sizes he has no business being a GM.

 

Youre right about Steans, he makes desicions based on advance analytics, but sometimes those analytics get you pitchers like Feliz.

[dacbrewers]

I would rather see Blazek up for a spot start than Espino...He has looked pretty fantastic in his starts at AAA. All of his pitches seem to be dialed in.

 

I'd be all for it if he was still in the 40. But he's not. If you're going to jettison someone from the 40 for another SP it might as well be Woodruff.

 

Blazek still only 28...thought he was in his 30's.

[dacbrewers]

so much for Blazeks AAA domination...lol...i jinxed him.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

Knebel, Barnes, and Torres are tied for the league lead in games. These guys are going to be worn out if this continues. maybe a Wilkerson callup could be used to pitch multiple innings so we dont have to call on these guys so oftern

[adambr2]

Knebel, Barnes, and Torres are tied for the league lead in games. These guys are going to be worn out if this continues. maybe a Wilkerson callup could be used to pitch multiple innings so we dont have to call on these guys so oftern

 

So we have a rotation that is near the best in the league for ERA, and a bullpen that has carried 8 pitchers most if not all of the season, and still have 3 of the most overworked relievers in baseball. That seems tough to pull off.

[DuWayne Steurer]

 

So we have a rotation that is near the best in the league for ERA, and a bullpen that has carried 8 pitchers most if not all of the season, and still have 3 of the most overworked relievers in baseball. That seems tough to pull off.

 

The league average (NL) is 5.6 innings per start. The Brewers are averaging 5.4 IP per start, so really they're averaging about one less out per start than the "average" team right now. Cumulatively, it's about 2 extra innings for the bullpen every 10 days compared to league average. The Brewers carry 8 relievers, so this shouldn't be a big deal, but the fact that they have to lean heavily on their only few dependable guys is troublesome. Hopefully either a few guys turn things around or they promote a few kids who show they can produce at the big league level... or SOMETHING happens so CC doesn't feel the need to use only Knebel and Barnes in the high leverage situations when we need to lock down games.

[Roderick]

Knebel, Barnes, and Torres are tied for the league lead in games. These guys are going to be worn out if this continues. maybe a Wilkerson callup could be used to pitch multiple innings so we dont have to call on these guys so oftern

 

Knebel and Barnes are just so much more reliable than the rest of the pen that they have to be used in every game we are tied to leading by 3 or less. I still have hope that Hughes may turn into that guy yet. But it may just be the Giants hitting that is making him look so good.

 

No callup is going to change that for the near-term as you need to earn trust. But if you call up someone now and if they can show that they won't hemorrhage runs, by July they may have earned some of the workload off from Barnes who will then be able to spell Knebel.

 

If someone were called up now (so probably not Hader), it would seem to be Blazek/Cravy/Archer/Wang. They have all pitched much better on the road, as sometimes you just need to ignore CS. Only Cravy is on the 40. Cravy is on 9 scoreless innings streak. But it would seem to me that it may be time to see if Wang could be a better option down in the pen than Drake.

[MrTPlush]

Jared Hughes to the rescue. He has looked really good the last few times out. People are quick to forget he was really good for multiple years prior to 2017. I wouldn't be surprised if he figured it out and he will become another dependable guy in the pen. Tyler Cravy should get a call soon. He did pretty well last year in his relief stint.

[SomewhereInTime]

It's 2012 all over again, the whole pen basically needs to be cycled out. Once they finally did that in 2012 the team got hot and nearly came all the way back. When it comes to bullpen arms there should be an incredibly short leash, especially for waiver claim veterans.

[Boomer5]

Poor CC trying to manage this bullpen. These guys are so inconsistent.

 

Feliz struck out the side in a clean inning and Barnes didn't get an out.

[Crash2303]

I'm done with our current back-end relievers. time to give an extended look at the next round of guys. has a team ever dropped 3-5 guys and brought up 3-5 new guys from AAA all at once? I would be tempted to do just that. normally, I'd say give them til the end of june then try the next guy(s) for the next 2 months. but, we're in the pennant race- this is ridiculous. obviously, Knebel & Barnes are staying. I'd say the rest of them are on a very short leash at this point (save peralta who is too talented to not let him try to figure out the bullpen til the end of the year. on the other hand unless he is flat out dominant, he'll probably be non-tendered regardless so...) either they start pitching well or they are sent down/DFA/released respectively and immediately.

 

none of Hughes (31), Feliz (29), Scahill (30), Drake (30), Torres (34) factor in our long-term window anyway and all pretty much are who they are at this point without much prospect for getting better. for the most part they are known quantities, as so many on the board have stated we need to give playing time to our unknown quantities who are younger to see what we have in them. all of these type of relievers are a dime a dozen in the offseason, and as shown below, we have plenty of them who should at least do as well as the five mentioned are currently doing. I say keep throwing them at the wall and see who sticks.

 

My Current Relief Que (this isn't even including injured pitchers Barrios & Nolin, or Ortiz who shouldn't be considered until next year):

1) Espino (his K/BB numbers are ridiculously awesome- I think he would be great out of pen)

2) Cravy (just keeps pitching well in relief, away from Colorado)

3) Suter (only if they stop using him as a long man- but only as a change of pace 1 IP back end bullpen piece)

4) Wang (sub 2.00 ERA- doing well- ready for another crack)

5) Hader (would like him to stay at AAA longer to work on his control, but afraid, like others that Colorado Springs is messing him up) either way, would like to seem him start in the bullpen this season and transition to the rotation next season.

6) Jungmann (who are you?)

7) Blazek (past MLB success- doing his job at AAA- but not part of the future, so...)

8) Woodruff (only concern is starting his clock- maybe best to wait til next season?)

9) Archer (not much time in AAA, but doing solid)

10) Burgos (pitching terribly lately and not part of the future- but love him so had to include him)

11) Wilkerson (what else does a guy need to do?)

12) Barbosa (6'8"- what else is there to say, except maybe that he has dominated on the road)

13) Ramsey (he's been pitching great at AA...since 2014)

14) Lopez (where have you gone, Jo?)

15) T Williams (my inclination would be let him get through a season healthy down at AA. then let him compete in Spring Training for a bullpen role.