2017 bullpen

[pacopete4]

Get rid of Drake, Scahill, Hughes and bring up any of the following: Tristan Archer, Andrew Barbosa, Wang, Aaron Wilkerson, Matt Ramsey, Espino, Blazek to name a few. Hell, go pick up Joba again. He can't be any worse.

 

I would then tell Feliz and Torres that they are at their last chance. They either start getting outs or they to will be on the waiver wire. Enough is enough with accepting just plain crap from these so called major league players. Spin the cycle til you find some players who are worth a damn.

 

Problem is, none of those guys (with the exception of Feliz) has been as bad as people are saying. Not many bullpens where you feel really confident about 4 or 5 guys, much less 8. Each reliever has had a mix of mostly good appearances, but yes too many clunkers. It only makes sense to figure out which, if any, can be more consistent.

 

I mean Ramsey, Espino, Archer, Barbosa? Do you really think they'll be able to come in night after night and handle the job? It's frustrating, I get it, but making a change just to make a change is usually not a good strategy.

 

This will work itself out over the next few weeks. One or more of these guys will get better, maybe. One may just self-destruct. Then down in the minors, someone will rise to the top and called up. Bullpens are always a work in progress, and as fans we're rarely satisfied.

 

Have you taken a look at their stat lines? Only Feliz has a WHIP of 1.3, the rest are 1.4 or much higher. They ar accountable for over half our losses. How anyone can defend these clowns is beyond me. Sure teams have usually a lousy guy at the very end of their pen. We have five of them.

 

And I can't honestly tell you what those other minor leaguers I listed will produce but they have done well at the level they are at so why not give them a chance? Doing nothing will have us in fourth place in no time. I'm sure the full on rebuilders will all be celebrating that, but I'm tired of losing. Especially when this starting five and lineup are competent enough to compete now.

[pacopete4]

I actually don't think Scahill has been half bad. I'd rather have him than Hughes, Drake, Feliz at this point.

 

Yeah you have to love relievers who strike out 4 in 16 innings. Pure dominance.

[brewmann04]

replacing anyone in the Pen not named Barnes or Knebel would be welcomed and not missed if replaced.

[tmwiese55]

I actually don't think Scahill has been half bad. I'd rather have him than Hughes, Drake, Feliz at this point.

 

Yeah you have to love relievers who strike out 4 in 16 innings. Pure dominance.

 

Don't think I said I loved him anywhere there. Just said better than those guys. but yea I didn't look up any stats, just off the top of my head.

 

ETA: Just went to game log and kind of backed it up. Scoreless in 8/12 appearances(this is actually a stat that should be tracked much more), sometimes going more than 1 inning. Before his last two games in was 8/10 with 2.03 ERA. Last night almost got through 2 innings scoreless before friggen Aaron Hill got that double down the line with 2 outs and i think 2 strikes. 34 innings last year with 3.4 ERA. Seems to be kind of the definition of average to me. And sadly, might be our 3rd best guy right now.

[adambr2]

Just throwing up are hands and saying well what did you expect, it is what it is, is not acceptable. The guys we have are not doing their jobs well enough. Cut bait, bring in other guys. Be creative. I'm so sick of Brewers management not trying to win ball games. We have a pathetic history for a reason. Stop letting mediocre be the status quo in Milwaukee and maybe, just maybe we will actually win something this century.

 

I gave you multiple examples of ways in which they've tried to improve the pen just since Spring Training. They signed Hughes, they traded for Drake. They had a short leash with Feliz and a short one with Marinez. They converted Peralta to a reliever. They called up Suter and Scahill at various points. All within a span of 2 months. How is this not trying? Just because what they've tried hasn't worked to this point doesn't mean they haven't tried.

 

Again, what would your specific moves be right now that you think would improve the pen?

 

Get rid of Drake, Scahill, Hughes and bring up any of the following: Tristan Archer, Andrew Barbosa, Wang, Aaron Wilkerson, Matt Ramsey, Espino, Blazek to name a few. Hell, go pick up Joba again. He can't be any worse.

 

I would then tell Feliz and Torres that they are at their last chance. They either start getting outs or they to will be on the waiver wire. Enough is enough with accepting just plain crap from these so called major league players. Spin the cycle til you find some players who are worth a damn.

 

Ok, but do you see the problem here? This is just change for the sake of change.

You brought up a suggestion of Joba, who currently doesn't even have a job in baseball, and you're expecting improvement from that? You're pretty much just throwing a bunch more crap at the wall and seeing what sticks. They've already been doing that, just with Drake and Hughes and Scahill and Peralta instead of the guys you listed . There is nothing about the list you gave that inspires any confidence that they'll be better. We had this same problem last year with Blazek . If you want to bring up him and Wang, fine, but you can't just cut bait with these guys after 2 or 3 bad outings, cycle into the next batch, and expect things to get better.

 

Internally I can think of about 2 or 3 guys that they could realistically promote to the pen and have high hopes that they may have an instant impact: Hader and Taylor Williams. Maybe Lopez if he ever gets his act together. So if you want to give these guys a shot in the MLB pen, I can get on board. Anything else is really just churning through the crap and hoping some of it will stick.

[pacopete4]

Get rid of Drake, Scahill, Hughes and bring up any of the following: Tristan Archer, Andrew Barbosa, Wang, Aaron Wilkerson, Matt Ramsey, Espino, Blazek to name a few. Hell, go pick up Joba again. He can't be any worse.

 

I would then tell Feliz and Torres that they are at their last chance. They either start getting outs or they to will be on the waiver wire. Enough is enough with accepting just plain crap from these so called major league players. Spin the cycle til you find some players who are worth a damn.

 

Ok, but do you see the problem here? This is just change for the sake of change.

You brought up a suggestion of Joba, who currently doesn't even have a job in baseball, and you're expecting improvement from that? You're pretty much just throwing a bunch more crap at the wall and seeing what sticks. They've already been doing that, just with Drake and Hughes and Scahill and Peralta instead of the guys you listed . There is nothing about the list you gave that inspires any confidence that they'll be better. We had this same problem last year with Blazek . If you want to bring up him and Wang, fine, but you can't just cut bait with these guys after 2 or 3 bad outings, cycle into the next batch, and expect things to get better.

 

Internally I can think of about 2 or 3 guys that they could realistically promote to the pen and have high hopes that they may have an instant impact: Hader and Taylor Williams. Maybe Lopez if he ever gets his act together. So if you want to give these guys a shot in the MLB pen, I can get on board. Anything else is really just churning through the crap and hoping some of it will stick.

 

If it's churning through crap what's the hold up? Bring em up, send em down, doesn't matter. Churn until something that resembles MLB pitching sticks. If none of these guys stick by seasons end, bingo cut em and go after other players. Why is there something wrong with that approach? We are not dealing with young prospects here. They're guys on their last chances. Cut em if they aren't doing their jobs. Doing nothing isn't getting it done. What happens if 3-4 of those guys I listed come up and do the job? I guess we'd never know with your thinking.

[adambr2]

 

If it's churning through crap what's the hold up? Bring em up, send em down, doesn't matter. Churn until something that resembles MLB pitching sticks. If none of these guys stick by seasons end, bingo cut em and go after other players. Why is there something wrong with that approach? We are not dealing with young prospects here. They're guys on their last chances. Cut em if they aren't doing their jobs. Doing nothing isn't getting it done. What happens if 3-4 of those guys I listed come up and do the job? I guess we'd never know with your thinking.

 

That works both ways, Brew. They picked up guys like Drake for a reason. What if you quit on him too quickly (such as Brandon Kintzler) and he goes on to have a very successful season elsewhere?

[pacopete4]

 

If it's churning through crap what's the hold up? Bring em up, send em down, doesn't matter. Churn until something that resembles MLB pitching sticks. If none of these guys stick by seasons end, bingo cut em and go after other players. Why is there something wrong with that approach? We are not dealing with young prospects here. They're guys on their last chances. Cut em if they aren't doing their jobs. Doing nothing isn't getting it done. What happens if 3-4 of those guys I listed come up and do the job? I guess we'd never know with your thinking.

 

That works both ways, Brew. They picked up guys like Drake for a reason. What if you quit on him too quickly (such as Brandon Kintzler) and he goes on to have a very successful season elsewhere?

 

Most won't. Few will. That's the life of bullpen roulette. Sacrificing your season because you think a 30 year old pitcher may figure it out is not the way to go IMO. Also nothing stopping Drake from going to AAA and getting better where it really doesn't matter record wise. Games count in the pros. The Brewers front office needs to start figuring that out.

[Madhawk23]

It seems to me that we have at least few internal candidates that could probably help our MLB pen almost immediately. Here is how I'd rank the internal candidates:

 

1. Hader - they've already started limiting his innings (which seems a bit odd to me), so I wonder if we don't see this call-up sooner rather than later. Calling him up this year to help in the pen, wouldn't mean that we'd have to give up on him as a starter. In fact, maybe they could still keep him loosened up a bit by giving him some 2-3 inning relief stints from time to time? Big question with Hader though - can you rely on his control issues in high leverage MLB relief appearances? We can't have him coming in and walking the first two batters that he'd face.

 

2. Taylor Williams - They are already limiting his innings this year, coming back from his surgery - so why not bring his nasty stuff up to the Brewers and limit his innings at the big league level. We know how filthy his stuff is, and I'm guessing he'd be an immediate upgrade.

 

3. Michael Blazek - He's done well at times for us in prior years, and seems to be doing some good things lately at CS as a starter. Not sure if they feel that he is now better suited to be a starter, but they might want to give him another shot in the pen.

 

4. Tristan Archer - Honestly, I have no idea on this guy's stuff, but he seems to put up solid numbers at every stop so far in his minor league career.

 

5. Wang - ERA is good at CS this year, so that intrigues me. Not sure though if he's got the type of stuff to be a late inning guy that can shut down a left handed bat?

 

So, seems like we'd have some decent internal candidates here that we might be able to take a look at.

[FVBrewerFan]

 

If it's churning through crap what's the hold up? Bring em up, send em down, doesn't matter. Churn until something that resembles MLB pitching sticks. If none of these guys stick by seasons end, bingo cut em and go after other players. Why is there something wrong with that approach? We are not dealing with young prospects here. They're guys on their last chances. Cut em if they aren't doing their jobs. Doing nothing isn't getting it done. What happens if 3-4 of those guys I listed come up and do the job? I guess we'd never know with your thinking.

 

That works both ways, Brew. They picked up guys like Drake for a reason. What if you quit on him too quickly (such as Brandon Kintzler) and he goes on to have a very successful season elsewhere?

 

Most won't. Few will. That's the life of bullpen roulette. Sacrificing your season because you think a 30 year old pitcher may figure it out is not the way to go IMO. Also nothing stopping Drake from going to AAA and getting better where it really doesn't matter record wise. Games count in the pros. The Brewers front office needs to start figuring that out.

 

Sacrificing your season is a little dramatic. It's not as if Stearns won't make a move if these guys continue to be inconsistent. GMs can never seem to make a move fast enough for fans when a player is struggling. There's over 100 games to go. Peralta was given a chance as a starter, now he's struggling in the pen. Do we DFA him also? I mean, I just don't think it's realistic to cut 5 guys and bring 5 up. It's a process, but there's nothing wrong with seeing if guys not named Knebel or Barnes can put it together.

 

Some of the guys you like on the 25 will struggle in the 2nd half, that's baseball. For all we know Hughes and Drake will have great 2nd halves. As has been pointed out, you can't say Stearns has done nothing. He just hasn't done as much, and as fast as you would like. It's not like we have Mariano Rivera wasting away in AAA.

[Boomer5]

The signing of Feliz is the root cause of all of this. I have no idea what Stearns thought he had in him but whatever it was, he has caused a domino effect in the bullpen.

 

Had Feliz been an even adequate closer, Knebel would have been the 8th inning guy where he would have been lights out, Barnes the 7th, and the rest as needed. When Feliz crashed and burned, guys who aren't used to higher leverage outs now had to pick up the slack. The results were as they say, predictable.

[rcc]

The signing of Feliz is the root cause of all of this. I have no idea what Stearns thought he had in him but whatever it was, he has caused a domino effect in the bullpen.

 

Had Feliz been an even adequate closer, Knebel would have been the 8th inning guy where he would have been lights out, Barnes the 7th, and the rest as needed. When Feliz crashed and burned, guys who aren't used to higher leverage outs now had to pick up the slack. The results were as they say, predictable.

 

 

Good points. Feliz has been a bad signing.

[istanbultaye]

I don't know that I'd call the Feliz signing bad per se, but he sure hasn't worked out so far. At the time it seemed like a medium/low risk, medium/high reward potential. Since it's a 1 year deal, it's not a crippling signing by any means. Just unfortunate that he hasn't put up results.

[brewmann04]

Yes i agree not its not a bad move at when DS did this but thankfully its only a one year deal

[jerichoholicninja]

The signing of Feliz is the root cause of all of this. I have no idea what Stearns thought he had in him but whatever it was, he has caused a domino effect in the bullpen.

 

Had Feliz been an even adequate closer, Knebel would have been the 8th inning guy where he would have been lights out, Barnes the 7th, and the rest as needed. When Feliz crashed and burned, guys who aren't used to higher leverage outs now had to pick up the slack. The results were as they say, predictable.

 

Not really sure how you can blame Feliz for all but two BP pitchers being terrible this year. Is it Villar's fault that Broxton hasn't lived up to his 2016 second half too?

[Boomer5]

The signing of Feliz is the root cause of all of this. I have no idea what Stearns thought he had in him but whatever it was, he has caused a domino effect in the bullpen.

 

Had Feliz been an even adequate closer, Knebel would have been the 8th inning guy where he would have been lights out, Barnes the 7th, and the rest as needed. When Feliz crashed and burned, guys who aren't used to higher leverage outs now had to pick up the slack. The results were as they say, predictable.

 

Not really sure how you can blame Feliz for all but two BP pitchers being terrible this year. Is it Villar's fault that Broxton hasn't lived up to his 2016 second half too?

 

This is where the analytics guy jump the tracks. Baseball players are odd. They really need to know their role and to be comfortable. Not everyone who showed good number pitching the 7th can plug and play and pitch the 9th. High leverage guys pitch well in high leverage situations and of course putting a guy who is ok in general but his warts come out in high leverage spots.

 

We see that in Knebel who has been amazing right up until we made him the full time closer.

 

Broxton and Villar both are bad because they are flawed players.

[pacopete4]

Yep just keep trotting Torres out there too. Let him work through it. Almost cost them a 5-run lead tonight by himself. Won't always be that lucky.

[LouisEly]

Cravy, Wang, Blazek have been very good in AAA for Colorado Springs. Suter has been getting strikeouts. At this point I don't see what you have to lose by letting Feliz and Torres walk and see what two of the four guys above can do. Cravy pitched very well in relief last year and has been very good this year; there is no reason to think he can be any worse than Feliz or Torres. Same with Suter.

[adambr2]

The signing of Feliz is the root cause of all of this. I have no idea what Stearns thought he had in him but whatever it was, he has caused a domino effect in the bullpen.

 

Had Feliz been an even adequate closer, Knebel would have been the 8th inning guy where he would have been lights out, Barnes the 7th, and the rest as needed. When Feliz crashed and burned, guys who aren't used to higher leverage outs now had to pick up the slack. The results were as they say, predictable.

 

Not really sure how you can blame Feliz for all but two BP pitchers being terrible this year. Is it Villar's fault that Broxton hasn't lived up to his 2016 second half too?

 

This is where the analytics guy jump the tracks. Baseball players are odd. They really need to know their role and to be comfortable. Not everyone who showed good number pitching the 7th can plug and play and pitch the 9th. High leverage guys pitch well in high leverage situations and of course putting a guy who is ok in general but his warts come out in high leverage spots.

 

We see that in Knebel who has been amazing right up until we made him the full time closer.

 

Broxton and Villar both are bad because they are flawed players.

 

Broxton is not a 'bad' player, and if we really believed that we would have moved on by now. He had over a 2 WAR last year despite playing about a third of the season and being terrible for the first half.

 

Broxton is extraordinarily streaky. When he's hot he'll carry the team for a week or two and when he's not he'll look terrible. Right now he's in the 'not' cycle. I have little doubt that at some point he'll get hot again and get the OPS back up into the .800 range before like he did earlier this year when he was hitting. 119 and people were losing all hope.

 

I still don't believe Villar is a bad player either although he's really not looking very close to turning this around.

[reillymcshane]

The Brewers are doing exactly what they should be doing. They assembled a staff they thought could get them through the year - and are reacting accordingly. They have given guys plenty of chances - and moved on as needed. Milone (who I don't think anyone could really defend as a signing) is gone. Marinez is gone (last season's decent play doesn't trump a career of mediocrity). Peralta has five or six outings in the bullpen. It is going to take time to assess him.

 

They've taken chances on Scahill and Drake. Those guys are likely being evaluating everyday. Torres, Feliz and Hughes are probably in the same boat - but with longer leashes.

 

People seem to forget that Torres was really good last year (82 relief innings, 2.73 ERA). Feliz wasn't a bad player last year either. And Hughes had three straight seasons (2014-16) with an ERA 3.03 or under. I believe it is short sighted to give up on players who have produced as recently as these guys. I'm not saying any are great - but there are reasons to keep them around.

 

Ultimately, I think it's counterproductive to cutting guys left and right and just throwing in whatever arms you can conjure up. Now, I'm not defending Feliz or Hughes or whomever. I honestly haven't watched enough games to judge them. Of course, we have stats. But they don't always tell the full story - especially only 1/3 of the way through the season.

 

In the end, each player has to give the Brewers a reason to keep them around despite their poor performance. If the team believes Feliz is a lost cause - then by all means - cut him and bring up someone new. But if they see a path to recover - it is probably smart to give them a bit more time.

 

That's my opinion.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

yeah, its time to make a change. other pitchers to consider for callup are Espino, who can just stay up after his spot start, and Aaron Wilkerson. the bullpen needs some RP who don't walk so many batters.

[adambr2]

 

If it's churning through crap what's the hold up? Bring em up, send em down, doesn't matter. Churn until something that resembles MLB pitching sticks. If none of these guys stick by seasons end, bingo cut em and go after other players. Why is there something wrong with that approach? We are not dealing with young prospects here. They're guys on their last chances. Cut em if they aren't doing their jobs. Doing nothing isn't getting it done. What happens if 3-4 of those guys I listed come up and do the job? I guess we'd never know with your thinking.

 

That works both ways, Brew. They picked up guys like Drake for a reason. What if you quit on him too quickly (such as Brandon Kintzler) and he goes on to have a very successful season elsewhere?

 

Most won't. Few will. That's the life of bullpen roulette. Sacrificing your season because you think a 30 year old pitcher may figure it out is not the way to go IMO. Also nothing stopping Drake from going to AAA and getting better where it really doesn't matter record wise. Games count in the pros. The Brewers front office needs to start figuring that out.

 

Knebel was pretty bad last year. What if we had given up on him? I think that would have been a lot more 'sacrificing the season' this year than sticking it out with Drake.

 

You simply cannot just throw anyone who has a few bad outings to the curb, or you'll never have them around long enough to figure out if there's anything there, and your pen will be in constant flux from a game of musical chairs and new bodies every time someone doesn't impress from the get-go. We do need to keep a degree of reliever depth in the minors and therefore also can't afford to be in constant DFA mode with our relievers. Drake has no options left so yes there is something stopping him from going to AAA.

 

I agree with Reilly - everything is based on an internal evaluation. If you feel like Feliz, or Torres, or whoever, is done, by all means DFA them and give someone new a shot . But you had better be right. Or if you think they're just getting unlucky, or you think there's a fixable flaw, or whatever reason, then go ahead and work through it. It's up to the team to make those evaluations.

 

Assembling a pen is for the off-season. At this point, you basically got who you got. You can throw more arms into the mix but most of them are no more likely than who you already have to improve things. So if you want to try to pull off anything significant it's going to have to come from expensive trades or power arms like Hader already in your system.

[superfly]

I guess I am of the mindset of wanting to deploy the hammer on a mediocre Cardinals and what was a WS hungover Cubs team right now rather than goof around until July/August and see what we have. We should be BIGLY ahead in the division right now if it wasn't for this pen.

 

Being patient with some of these guys is smart. Some of them will revert to their career norms...even Feliz could. What needs to happen however is churning the worst one of them. We are essentially pissing away games 2-3 times a week that SHOULD BE WINS though by not trying new things. There is no excuse for Chase Anderson to throw 21 scoreless innings amongst others and then we sit here praying to God we can hold a 6 run lead in the 8th inning. It's pathetic.

[pacopete4]

Comparing Knebel to anything in our pen (other than Corey himself) is just bad. Apples to hand grenades bad.

[rickh150]

Comparing Knebel to anything in our pen (other than Corey himself) is just bad. Apples to hand grenades bad.

 

Barnes is comparable- throw hard, good strikeout pitches, young, controllable..