2017 bullpen

[adambr2]

I love to praise Stearns for his awesome work rebuilding the farm but he needs to be held accountable for doing absolutely nothing to help change the bullpen woes. The rest of the guys on the team deserve better.

 

I hear this sentiment but I rarely hear any explanations for what should have been done. They went out and signed Feliz, hasn't worked out. The trades we made when we traded our relievers I think most of us agree were good ones. So short of making bad expensive trades or throwing a lot of money around at free agent relievers, for a team that was expected to be in a rebuilding mode this year, I don't know what else he should have done.

 

They went out and took flyers on Hughes and Drake, who haven't been highly successful, but they are making moves and trying. They DFAed Marinez. They moved Peralta to the pen to try to help shore it up.

 

Do you really think guys like Cravy, Goforth and Blazek are going to make any significant difference?

 

So in short, yeah, the pen stinks, but I'm not sure what exactly we're hoping from on Stearns' part that he hasn't yet done. Selling off major pieces like Brinson or Ray for relief pitching would be a shortsighted mistake. They have some internal options that could end up helping this year like Hader and Taylor Williams, but they're not going to start pushing those chips in the pot in early June just because they're sitting at 2 games over .500.

[reillymcshane]

Our bullpen sucks, but that should surprise no one. I mean look at the guys we have used - Scahill, Torres, Hughes, Feliz, Marinez, Milone, Drake. With the exception of Feliz, all these guys were rejects.

 

The Brewers came into 2017 with the attitude of a rebuilding club. That they've done better than expected has been nice, but let's face it - no one expected us to contend this year - including Stearns. Some of the players - like Torres and (we had hoped) Feliz - are there to help provide a little stability in the bullpen. Maybe they have a good year and can be flipped for an asset or two. Who knows. But they aren't long term players for this club.

 

This year is about finding out what guys like Knebel and Barnes can do. Maybe unearth a nugget that others have missed on (guys like Marinez and Drake fall in this category). The club was always going to churn through a lot of these types. That we had to do it while we were playing well is really unfortunate. And that some of the veterans have pitched poorly only adds to the frustration.

 

The main thing is there is no real option other than our minor league players. It's foolish to overpay for a bullpen arm when the club isn't that good (at least in my opinion). I'd just rather see our minor league guys get an actual chance. I don't expect a lot (if anything), but I'd rather see a guy like Wang or Suter or Cravy get some regular playing time rather than trot our Feliz or Hughes.

[Boomer5]

Agreed, they weren't expecting much from the MLB club, so they put in a bunch of cheap guys as space fillers hoping that maybe a Hughes or a Feliz would turn into a flip candidate.

 

But then fringe types like Thames, Bandy, Shaw, and Pina played way over any possible career expectations and that shined a bright light on how bad the pen was built, by design.

 

In 2017, the bullpen is probably the most difficult area to fix. Everyone has caught on to the 5 to 6 inning starter then the chess game begins with these 8 man pens. Want an elite reliever? Then start with trading Brinson plus to get ONE let alone the 2 more we really need.

 

We won't even attempt to fix that mid season except maybe some call ups. I'd like to see Hader become our Andrew Miller.

[SandyTolan]

there is no real option other than our minor league players.

 

Agreed, but IMO that's quite a qualifier. Contrary to the opinion of some here, I think a lot can be done from AAA to improve the bullpen dramatically going forward. Hader could be a powerful LH option. Blazek and Wang are having exceptionally good years, especially for Colorado Springs, and there are reasons to believe both could be dramatic upgrades over Feliz, Hughes, and Drake. For one thing Blazek has actually been very good at the MLB level; . As for Wang, he keeps improving and seems to deserve another shot.

 

So, for starters, I'd ship out Feliz, Hughes, and Drake, and bring up Hader, Wang, and Blazek. That could result in significant improvement. Then if Torres or Scahill have more struggles, Espino, Crazy, or Suter could also be upgrades, if not dramatic ones.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Trading Brinson for a reliever? Yuck. No thank you.

[CheezWizHed]

Trading Brinson for a reliever? Yuck. No thank you.

 

That was his point. The next line was this:

 

We won't even attempt to fix that mid season except maybe some call ups. I'd like to see Hader become our Andrew Miller.

 

Trying to fix our BP through trades will be expensive. See the Thornburg trade as an example. Or Will Smith.

 

We should trade relievers every year...

[dacbrewers]

How are those metrics working for Feliz and Stearns? Blazek seems to have turned things around and Wang has been pitching well. Cravy had a relief era under 1 last year, under limited innings. His metrics show he can't get anyone out, but somehow he does. He's been bad in Colorado Springs this year but hasn't given up a run in 2 months on the road. Any of these guys or Hader or Archer should be given a chance at some point. But you never know with Stearns because his advanced metrics show all his relievers are going to turn it around soon. I'm not going to bring up the Milone signing, oh shoot I just did. Well at least he didn't cost as much as Feliz...A million a month gives Feliz around 3 more months before he's gone.

[MillerParkSouth]

Our bullpen sucks, but that should surprise no one. I mean look at the guys we have used - Scahill, Torres, Hughes, Feliz, Marinez, Milone, Drake. With the exception of Feliz, all these guys were rejects.

 

The Brewers came into 2017 with the attitude of a rebuilding club. That they've done better than expected has been nice, but let's face it - no one expected us to contend this year - including Stearns. Some of the players - like Torres and (we had hoped) Feliz - are there to help provide a little stability in the bullpen. Maybe they have a good year and can be flipped for an asset or two. Who knows. But they aren't long term players for this club.

 

This year is about finding out what guys like Knebel and Barnes can do. Maybe unearth a nugget that others have missed on (guys like Marinez and Drake fall in this category). The club was always going to churn through a lot of these types. That we had to do it while we were playing well is really unfortunate. And that some of the veterans have pitched poorly only adds to the frustration.

 

The main thing is there is no real option other than our minor league players. It's foolish to overpay for a bullpen arm when the club isn't that good (at least in my opinion). I'd just rather see our minor league guys get an actual chance. I don't expect a lot (if anything), but I'd rather see a guy like Wang or Suter or Cravy get some regular playing time rather than trot our Feliz or Hughes.

 

well said. the angst/vitriol around here/on twitter about how our terrible bullpen is hilarious to me. sure it's frustrating, but come on now. Stearns is building this team the right way and that doesn't involve making terrible trades for relievers.

[rickh150]

Agreed, they weren't expecting much from the MLB club, so they put in a bunch of cheap guys as space fillers hoping that maybe a Hughes or a Feliz would turn into a flip candidate.

 

But then fringe types like Thames, Bandy, Shaw, and Pina played way over any possible career expectations and that shined a bright light on how bad the pen was built, by design.

 

In 2017, the bullpen is probably the most difficult area to fix. Everyone has caught on to the 5 to 6 inning starter then the chess game begins with these 8 man pens. Want an elite reliever? Then start with trading Brinson plus to get ONE let alone the 2 more we really need.

 

We won't even attempt to fix that mid season except maybe some call ups. I'd like to see Hader become our Andrew Miller.

 

It is starting to look like Hader will be our lefty in the pen IF we are in it late in the season. Wang could be up soon, as well.

[pacopete4]

Just throwing up are hands and saying well what did you expect, it is what it is, is not acceptable. The guys we have are not doing their jobs well enough. Cut bait, bring in other guys. Be creative. I'm so sick of Brewers management not trying to win ball games. We have a pathetic history for a reason. Stop letting mediocre be the status quo in Milwaukee and maybe, just maybe we will actually win something this century.

[young guns]

Hughes seemed to make some adjustments and was pretty dominate last night. Id be ok with giving him a little more leash to see how it works out. Drake and feliz could be let go today and i would help them pack.

[SandyTolan]

Just throwing up are hands and saying well what did you expect, it is what it is, is not acceptable. The guys we have are not doing their jobs well enough. Cut bait, bring in other guys. Be creative. I'm so sick of Brewers management not trying to win ball games. We have a pathetic history for a reason. Stop letting mediocre be the status quo in Milwaukee and maybe, just maybe we will actually win something this century.

 

 

Fine, but rebuild the pen from AAA, not with trades that give away prospects before it's time to make a major move. As indicated above AAA arms like Hader, Wang, Blazek and even Cravy would likely be serious upgrades over Feliz, Hughes, and Drake. Improve from within; give the CS guys a shot and hang onto the big prospects.

[tmwiese55]

I know Felix has been bad and I wouldn't complain if he just got let go. However, he's hitting 97/98 consistently. Have to think something could be salvaged there somehow. But yea for now, he should be the 2nd to last guy used when the game is still winnable after Drake.

[pacopete4]

Just throwing up are hands and saying well what did you expect, it is what it is, is not acceptable. The guys we have are not doing their jobs well enough. Cut bait, bring in other guys. Be creative. I'm so sick of Brewers management not trying to win ball games. We have a pathetic history for a reason. Stop letting mediocre be the status quo in Milwaukee and maybe, just maybe we will actually win something this century.

 

 

Fine, but rebuild the pen from AAA, not with trades that give away prospects before it's time to make a major move. As indicated above AAA arms like Hader, Wang, Blazek and even Cravy would likely be serious upgrades over Feliz, Hughes, and Drake. Improve from within; give the CS guys a shot and hang onto the big prospects.

 

 

I don't care if they go and sign some Indy ball guys to come in and give it their all. Doing nothing is completely a joke at this point.

[SandyTolan]

Just throwing up are hands and saying well what did you expect, it is what it is, is not acceptable. The guys we have are not doing their jobs well enough. Cut bait, bring in other guys. Be creative. I'm so sick of Brewers management not trying to win ball games. We have a pathetic history for a reason. Stop letting mediocre be the status quo in Milwaukee and maybe, just maybe we will actually win something this century.

 

 

Fine, but rebuild the pen from AAA, not with trades that give away prospects before it's time to make a major move. As indicated above AAA arms like Hader, Wang, Blazek and even Cravy would likely be serious upgrades over Feliz, Hughes, and Drake. Improve from within; give the CS guys a shot and hang onto the big prospects.

 

 

I don't care if they go and sign some Indy ball guys to come in and give it their all. Doing nothing is completely a joke at this point.

 

 

It's not like they haven't done anything. They cut Milone and Mariñez. They moved Peralta to the bullpen. And no doubt more moves are coming. I think Feliz goes next, then maybe Drake.

[adambr2]

Just throwing up are hands and saying well what did you expect, it is what it is, is not acceptable. The guys we have are not doing their jobs well enough. Cut bait, bring in other guys. Be creative. I'm so sick of Brewers management not trying to win ball games. We have a pathetic history for a reason. Stop letting mediocre be the status quo in Milwaukee and maybe, just maybe we will actually win something this century.

 

I gave you multiple examples of ways in which they've tried to improve the pen just since Spring Training. They signed Hughes, they traded for Drake. They had a short leash with Feliz and a short one with Marinez. They converted Peralta to a reliever. They called up Suter and Scahill at various points. All within a span of 2 months. How is this not trying? Just because what they've tried hasn't worked to this point doesn't mean they haven't tried.

 

Again, what would your specific moves be right now that you think would improve the pen?

[jerichoholicninja]

Just throwing up are hands and saying well what did you expect, it is what it is, is not acceptable. The guys we have are not doing their jobs well enough. Cut bait, bring in other guys. Be creative. I'm so sick of Brewers management not trying to win ball games. We have a pathetic history for a reason. Stop letting mediocre be the status quo in Milwaukee and maybe, just maybe we will actually win something this century.

 

I gave you multiple examples of ways in which they've tried to improve the pen just since Spring Training. They signed Hughes, they traded for Drake. They had a short leash with Feliz and a short one with Marinez. They converted Peralta to a reliever. They called up Suter and Scahill at various points. All within a span of 2 months. How is this not trying? Just because what they've tried hasn't worked to this point doesn't mean they haven't tried.

 

Again, what would your specific moves be right now that you think would improve the pen?

 

I'll agree with both of you. Yes, they tried "things." They played reliever roulette in the offseason with crappy old guys, all of whom were gone before spring training and they went out and acquired a bunch of mediocre guys like Drake, Hughes, and Feliz. Theres' two problems though. One is that the team is playing way above expectations so the fact that the bullpen sucks actually matters. The other is that to acquire any relief pitching that would make a difference, it's going to cost players we probably shouldn't be trading right now. I imagine the front office meeting and going, "Man our bullpen sucks as bad as we thought it would and has cost us 5 or 6 games already. But who here actually thought those 5 or 6 games would mean anything?"

[dacbrewers]

I would have spent 10 million on a solid reliever....Wade Davis, Greg Holland...Brewers spent 6.5 million on the combo of Feliz and Milone so what's another 3.5 Million when you're getting a premium arm...heck we could of had Kintzler for 3 million. What can the Brewers do? Well just sit on the waiver wire pick up more guys that don't cut it or make a trade for a guy or do nothing.

[SomewhereInTime]

I doubt Stearns cares much about the bullpen at this point and he shouldn't spend too much time worrying about it.

 

So let Wang, Cravy, Blazek, Suter, sit in the minors while Hughes, Drake, Feliz, Torres keep giving up boatloads of runs in the majors? What purpose does that serve for the now or the future?

 

None of those guys possess a quality MLB arsenal or impressive secondary metrics that would predict they would be better than what we currently have or are any kind of longterm asset.

 

You vastly over estimate how difficult it is to be better than what we currently have.

[adambr2]

I would have spent 10 million on a solid reliever....Wade Davis, Greg Holland...Brewers spent 6.5 million on the combo of Feliz and Milone so what's another 3.5 Million when you're getting a premium arm...heck we could of had Kintzler for 3 million. What can the Brewers do? Well just sit on the waiver wire pick up more guys that don't cut it or make a trade for a guy or do nothing.

 

Well, they thought Feliz was going to be a decent arm. Kintzler for 3M would have been great if they had a crystal ball, but they don't . That's the nature of 2nd and 3rd tier relievers, a lot of volitality, they took a shot on Feliz and missed. It happens. There's no magic fix for it now.

 

And we did show interest in Greg Holland. He's going to have a 16M player option in Colorado next year, which is understandably why we didn't get too far in negotiations with him.

 

The Cubs gave up a former top 10 prospect for a year of Wade Davis. You would have given up Brinson or an equivalent prospect to rent Wade Davis in a rebuilding year? Or pay $10M+ for one going into a year we expected to rebuild? Come on now. So much hindsight going on. No one was touting those kinds of moves in December .

[brwrsfan]

We can't go back and redo the offseason, obviously there were some guys they maybe could have had...but didn't.

 

For what we have now, I would absolutely try to build from within first. We don't have any studs persay but I would be hard pressed to think that our AAA bullpen guys could be much worse than what we have. 17 bullpen losses, 11 blown saves, 64 runs allowed in the 8/9 innings. That's terrible.

 

First thing I would do is bring up a lefty. Give Wang a shot. Or Hader. Or Suter. Or all some combination of them. Aside from a left, let Blazek get another shot. Give Cravy a try. There are plenty of guys down there. As far as who to get rid of...Feliz, Drake, Hughes, Peralta, (though I'd personally give him a bit longer to adjust), Scahill. Send them down or just flat get rid of them.

 

Sitting idle and watching our pen blow game after game just simply shouldn't be an option right now, not while we're still in the mix at least.

[adambr2]

We can't go back and redo the offseason, obviously there were some guys they maybe could have had...but didn't.

 

For what we have now, I would absolutely try to build from within first. We don't have any studs persay but I would be hard pressed to think that our AAA bullpen guys could be much worse than what we have. 17 bullpen losses, 11 blown saves, 64 runs allowed in the 8/9 innings. That's terrible.

 

First thing I would do is bring up a lefty. Give Wang a shot. Or Hader. Or Suter. Or all some combination of them. Aside from a left, let Blazek get another shot. Give Cravy a try. There are plenty of guys down there. As far as who to get rid of...Feliz, Drake, Hughes, Peralta, (though I'd personally give him a bit longer to adjust), Scahill. Send them down or just flat get rid of them.

 

Sitting idle and watching our pen blow game after game just simply shouldn't be an option right now, not while we're still in the mix at least.

 

I agree and have no problem with giving guys shots internally to try to improve the status quo. I just think the second guessing of the off-season bullpen moves is silly. Most thought Feliz was worth a shot. Flyers like Joba made sense. They did their due diligence on waivers and scooped up Hughes and traded for Drake. They've been trying and all moves pretty much made sense for where we were at.

 

Now people want to go back to the winter and retroactively sign Kenley Jansen just because we're still contending in early June when a move like that would have looked like Stearns was losing his marbles at the time.

[pacopete4]

Just throwing up are hands and saying well what did you expect, it is what it is, is not acceptable. The guys we have are not doing their jobs well enough. Cut bait, bring in other guys. Be creative. I'm so sick of Brewers management not trying to win ball games. We have a pathetic history for a reason. Stop letting mediocre be the status quo in Milwaukee and maybe, just maybe we will actually win something this century.

 

I gave you multiple examples of ways in which they've tried to improve the pen just since Spring Training. They signed Hughes, they traded for Drake. They had a short leash with Feliz and a short one with Marinez. They converted Peralta to a reliever. They called up Suter and Scahill at various points. All within a span of 2 months. How is this not trying? Just because what they've tried hasn't worked to this point doesn't mean they haven't tried.

 

Again, what would your specific moves be right now that you think would improve the pen?

 

Get rid of Drake, Scahill, Hughes and bring up any of the following: Tristan Archer, Andrew Barbosa, Wang, Aaron Wilkerson, Matt Ramsey, Espino, Blazek to name a few. Hell, go pick up Joba again. He can't be any worse.

 

I would then tell Feliz and Torres that they are at their last chance. They either start getting outs or they to will be on the waiver wire. Enough is enough with accepting just plain crap from these so called major league players. Spin the cycle til you find some players who are worth a damn.

[FVBrewerFan]

Get rid of Drake, Scahill, Hughes and bring up any of the following: Tristan Archer, Andrew Barbosa, Wang, Aaron Wilkerson, Matt Ramsey, Espino, Blazek to name a few. Hell, go pick up Joba again. He can't be any worse.

 

I would then tell Feliz and Torres that they are at their last chance. They either start getting outs or they to will be on the waiver wire. Enough is enough with accepting just plain crap from these so called major league players. Spin the cycle til you find some players who are worth a damn.

 

Problem is, none of those guys (with the exception of Feliz) has been as bad as people are saying. Not many bullpens where you feel really confident about 4 or 5 guys, much less 8. Each reliever has had a mix of mostly good appearances, but yes too many clunkers. It only makes sense to figure out which, if any, can be more consistent.

 

I mean Ramsey, Espino, Archer, Barbosa? Do you really think they'll be able to come in night after night and handle the job? It's frustrating, I get it, but making a change just to make a change is usually not a good strategy.

 

This will work itself out over the next few weeks. One or more of these guys will get better, maybe. One may just self-destruct. Then down in the minors, someone will rise to the top and called up. Bullpens are always a work in progress, and as fans we're rarely satisfied.

[tmwiese55]

I actually don't think Scahill has been half bad. I'd rather have him than Hughes, Drake, Feliz at this point.