NCAA one and done rule

[patrickgpe]

To me, it's crazy to ban 18 yr olds from working.

nobody is banning 18 year olds from working. i am an engineer, i wasn't banned form working as an engineer at 18, i was just unqualified and needed to get a degree first.

 

I do give you that these kids can do the job, so in that sense you do have a point, but if there is a job requirement to play in the NBA (one year of college, or whatever). that is no different that any white color job.

 

But they're basing it purely on age. Totally different. They don't have to draft them, if they're unqualified (as in your example) then just don't draft them.

not really, for example to be a lifeguard you have to be 16, that has never been questioned in court. to bartend you have to be 21, i can go on. its not just sports players that has age restrictions on the job.

[Baldkin]

Nigel Hayes can quit anytime he wants. He could have left three years ago to go play professionally if life was to tough. He didn't even need to go to college to play professionally in Europe. He wants the best of both worlds. He wants to go to college and enjoy his time and enjoy being a local celebrity and all that AND he wants to be paid substantially for all that, even though he knew that's not how it works.

 

So your attitude to someone trying to change the status quo in college athletics is, "Don't try to change anything, you signed up for this, plus you get to be famous in Madison."

 

I can't even begin.

[tmwiese55]

But they're basing it purely on age. Totally different. They don't have to draft them, if they're unqualified (as in your example) then just don't draft them.

not really, for example to be a lifeguard you have to be 16, that has never been questioned in court. to bartend you have to be 21, i can go on. its not just sports players that has age restrictions on the job.

 

Fine nitpick all you want but there's no reason why bball should be treated unlike any other job based on merit. Bartending is a clear one as there is a different age law involved there relegating that and it's the government choosing. And from a quick googling that the government has specifically made the laws that way for lifeguarding too. When government makes a law specifically say that bball players can't play basketball until after a year out of HS I'll then accept it. Otherwise I'll continue thinking that basketball should be treated like any other job.

[FVBrewerFan]

Trucking companies can have hiring standards whereby they have a minimum age. Some use 21, others 23, etc. There are other examples. Employers, generally speaking, can dictate minimum age requirements. So, basketball is treated like any other job.

[tmwiese55]

Yea like I said it's currently considered legal because the law only technically applies to old people as of now. So showing another example doesn't change it. It's just there hasn't been enough incentive to challenge it yet and the SC might not bother on it anyway as they have more important things to worry about. Change it to 3 years like was mentioned here, and you might run into a lawyer that tries to make his name on beating this, and I'm sure the NBA won't want that attention. Especially since they also would probably look at the greater good and know it's not good to have lots of players going overseas at age 18, which is what would happen with a 3 year ban.

 

But again, there is probably clear reason why when it comes to their companies insurance why they don't do it or they simply don't view the person as having enough experience so they don't hire them. The NBA doesn't have to draft the guys if they don't think they have enough experience and aren't good enough, just like trucking companies don't have to. But to completely ban them based off age just doesn't seem right to me. Disagree if you want but if you can get drafted, can rack up thousands and thousands of student loan debt, work as a child actor at age 8, play pro tennis at any age, coders at any age then I don't see why you can't play basketball and I think it's wrong to block it.

 

Besides, back to the original point it's not the NCAA banning them. And if the NBA chooses this route then someone else can get a league together of top 20 HS players and have them go head to head over and over (or whatever league they want that doesn't have a ban). Since it's not a law someone else can do it so I don't see why the NCAA is so evil.

 

And if Lincoln Hawk (Sylvester Stallone from Over the Top, the equivalent of LBJ to truck driving) showed up at age 19 and could whiz the exam and was the only guy who didn't have a DUI they'd probably hire him since he's the best guy.

[Fear The Chorizo]

The sooner power conference teams and other capable D1 programs in the major revenue-generating sports (i.e. football and men's basketball) leave the NCAA and form their own organization for those sports, the better. They could team with the NFL and NBA to make conditions better for the athletes and have them be established as true development leagues - academic scholarships could still be part of their compensation and part of the recruiting draw, but they could also establish reasonable salary and benefit packages for these kids. I think this could also better set up the majority of these kids who are good enough to compete at the highest collegiate level of competition but not good enough to play in the NFL or NBA for life after playing. They could offer training programs to remain involved in the sport (coaching, scouting, marketing, PR, etc) that may not be tied directly to collegiate degrees.

[tmwiese55]

Very good idea Chorizo, obviously easier said than done but that seems like a very good end game to be shooting for eventually.

[nate82]

There is a new professional football league that may change college football but it will depend on how well this league can attract elite high school football players.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18449983/new-pacific-pro-football-league-debut-summer-2018

[danzig6767]

i really with they would change the rule to this:

 

players can come out after high school, if they do not sign a pro contract, they an return to school and are no longer the property of that team.

 

if you either enroll in college as a freshman or return back to school after the draft, you are not eligible for the NBA draft after your sophomore year.

 

this is pretty close to MLB rules, it really eliminates the one and done rule which is ruining college basketball and the NBA to an extent .

How is the one and done rule ruining college basketball?

 

You have maybe 30-40 kids a year leave after one season, the countless other players stay from 2-4 years. Of those one and done high level talents, at least college basketball fans get to see them play for one year vs going directly to the pros. Just think of all of the great college basketball games fans got to see of say Durant, Wall, Oden, Anthony Davis, etc etc which never would have taken place if they could go directly to the pros instead.

 

College basketball would be a much duller game without the best talents ever stepping foot on a college basketball court, even if many only stay one year.

 

So i just don't get why so many have a problem with this setup.

 

As for the NBA, they are better off with the high end talents playing at least a year in college to get seasoning and experiencing living on their own for the first time vs those player going directly to the pros from high school.

[paul253]

So your attitude to someone trying to change the status quo in college athletics is, "Don't try to change anything, you signed up for this, plus you get to be famous in Madison."

 

No my attitude is you know what you signed up for so stopping acting like you're some poor unsuspecting victim. I mean serioulsly, walking around with these "broke athlete" signs? I'm so sorry that he gets a four year degree without paying a dime AND gets a monthly stipend on top of that just for being an athlete. Please, allow me to throw some money his way.

 

Perhaps someone should send him a bill showing him what he would have paid for college if he wasn't good at basketball.

 

And perhaps he should have gone to Turkey or Greece to play professionally three years ago if playing NCAA basketball is causing him to go broke.

[danzig6767]

What a racket the NCAA has devised, yet some want to rip on the players being scammed

 

Explain to me how the players are "being scammed". They know exactly what they are getting into and they all go in more than willingly. As I've said time and time again if they don't like it they can walk away any time they want. But ask anyone here, hell ask yourself. If you could go to college, a college you probably couldn't afford to go to or qualify to get into, for four years and earn your degree while paying nothing for tuition, nothing for housing, nothing for your food plans, nothing for healthcare, nothing for books AND receive a monthly stipend of a few hundreds dollars in exchange for playing on the football or basketball team.....would you? I sure as hell would. Stop acting like these players aren't getting anything in return for their time and effort.

Since you continue to keep misrepresenting what i've said, there probably is no point debating further with you.

 

Never once have i said college athletes get nothing. Instead i've stated multiple times that a scholarship definitely has financial value, just nowhere close to the financial gains which universities and the NCAA makes off the money these athletes generate.

 

They hide behind this bogus claim of major college football and basketball being amateur athletics so they can get away with just paying out a scholarship when in reality the two sports are multi-billion dollar businesses with packed stadiums/arenas, huge TV contracts, large merchandising deals, and numerous other revenue streams not much different at all than the NFL and NBA, except those two leagues have to actually share their money with the product/athletes bringing in that revenue.

 

So just because college athletes in those sports get something for playing doesn't have to also mean they are getting their fare share. After all, if what they get is perfectly fair, why is the NCAA so against letting the athletes unionize and bargain for compensation?

[paul253]

After all, if what they get is perfectly fair, why is the NCAA so against letting the athletes unionize and bargain for compensation

 

Becuase they are students, not employees. It's the same reason high school players aren't being paid even though more and more of them are bringing money and attention to their schools. I know the absolute last thing anyone cares about is schools, but these are still schools. And they are still students.

 

Do you think they should even have to go to class or should they just be able to play their sports and collect a paycheck? If they are going to be paid "fair value", to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars a year, why would even care about going to school? Talk about a scam.

 

They hide behind this bogus claim of major college football and basketball being amateur athletics

 

How is this a "claim"? They ARE amateurs. The only people trying to change that are the players themselves who are demanding they be paid for playing the game. They are the ones trying to change their status to make them, by definition, professionals.

 

The real issue, though, is the lack of minor leagues for the NBA and NFL. These kids should not be paid while in college, but they should have another route to go if they so choose. But the NFL and NBA have no incentive to form these leagues becuase the NCAA is basically doing it for them.

[MrTPlush]

Becuase they are students, not employees.

 

Students can be employees at schools...they also get paid. There is something called change and maybe it is time for that. Athletics have boomed into massive businesses yet they get the same compensation as before? Hmmm

[jerichoholicninja]

So your attitude to someone trying to change the status quo in college athletics is, "Don't try to change anything, you signed up for this, plus you get to be famous in Madison."

 

No my attitude is you know what you signed up for so stopping acting like you're some poor unsuspecting victim. I mean serioulsly, walking around with these "broke athlete" signs? I'm so sorry that he gets a four year degree without paying a dime AND gets a monthly stipend on top of that just for being an athlete. Please, allow me to throw some money his way.

 

Perhaps someone should send him a bill showing him what he would have paid for college if he wasn't good at basketball.

 

And perhaps he should have gone to Turkey or Greece to play professionally three years ago if playing NCAA basketball is causing him to go broke.

 

You're assuming a 4 year degree is really that valuable. Its value drops everyday as everyone and their mother gets one from the hundreds of online diploma mills.

[MrTPlush]

So your attitude to someone trying to change the status quo in college athletics is, "Don't try to change anything, you signed up for this, plus you get to be famous in Madison."

 

No my attitude is you know what you signed up for so stopping acting like you're some poor unsuspecting victim. I mean serioulsly, walking around with these "broke athlete" signs? I'm so sorry that he gets a four year degree without paying a dime AND gets a monthly stipend on top of that just for being an athlete. Please, allow me to throw some money his way.

 

Perhaps someone should send him a bill showing him what he would have paid for college if he wasn't good at basketball.

 

And perhaps he should have gone to Turkey or Greece to play professionally three years ago if playing NCAA basketball is causing him to go broke.

 

You're assuming a 4 year degree is really that valuable. Its value drops everyday as everyone and their mother gets one from the hundreds of online diploma mills.

 

Fake degrees don't devalue a real one.

[paul253]

Students can be employees at schools...they also get paid.

 

Yes.....when they hold a job. Playing basketball isn't a job. It's an activity. It's a playing a game. It's something tens of millions of people do around the country for fun.

 

Where did this whole debate come from? It came about because of money. Because men's basketball and football and maybe a few other sports at a few schools (women's basketball, hockey, baseball) are money makers. But let's face it. This is about men's basketball and football. Those athletes feel as though they are being mistreated. Forget for a second that if they stayed four years they receive benefits that can top $200,000 depending on where they go. Apparently that no longer matters. So are we arguing that ALL student athletes are employees, and they all deserve to be paid? Or only the student athletes in sports that make a profit? Is life harder for a football player at Alabama than it is for a women's soccer player at Alabama? The football player deserves to get paid but the soccer player doesn't? Or they both deserve to get paid? So now you're not only running a deficit in almost every sport but you're increasing that deficit by paying athletes who participate in those sports?

 

The problem with the whole "pay them their fair market value" is that you're only going to end up paying players from certain sports, which quite honestly is crap, because athletes in other sports work just as hard as basketball and football players, maybe even harder. But if you do it the other way, you're paying athletes in sports that, quite honestly, very few people care about. No offense to all the swimmers and field hockey players out there but those sports just don't draw the same amount of viewers as football and they don't bring in huge amounts of revenue.

 

Then there's the argument that schools like Texas and Ohio St and Alabama have much more valuable football programs than schools like SMU and UMass or Iowa St. So do players from Ohio St get paid more then players from Iowa St? How is Iowa St ever supposed to compete if Ohio Sts players (let's stop calling them students) get paid more?

 

I'm sorry but this isn't MLB free agency where these kids can go off to the highest bidder.. They can do that when they make it to be pros. This is college. They can play for the scholarships and exposure and all the other perks that come with it. And.....you know.....education.

 

You're assuming a 4 year degree is really that valuable. Its value drops everyday as everyone and their mother gets one from the hundreds of online diploma mills.

 

It's more valuable than a high school or associates degree, which is what many of these kids would top off with without the athletic scholarship. And even if they'd still have gotten a four year degree they'd likely have thousands dollars of student loan debt to go with it. .

[pacopete4]

I am not one that thinks these players should be receiving "fair" market value for their services to their school. But I am one that believes they should be given some expense money from the NCAA to offset the lost time they have due to having to be at their sport. I would love if they came up with a pay scale for these athletes to receive a bi-weekly allowance as if they were working a job like any other college student. If this was done, I think the issue of being paid might end. While it is a great argument that these kids should just thank the lucky stars that they are getting "free" college, it's just not that simple. The NCAA is making so much profit off of these institutions and these student-athletes are giving up a lot of their own time to make them their money.

[tmwiese55]

I am not one that thinks these players should be receiving "fair" market value for their services to their school. But I am one that believes they should be given some expense money from the NCAA to offset the lost time they have due to having to be at their sport. I would love if they came up with a pay scale for these athletes to receive a bi-weekly allowance as if they were working a job like any other college student. If this was done, I think the issue of being paid might end. While it is a great argument that these kids should just thank the lucky stars that they are getting "free" college, it's just not that simple. The NCAA is making so much profit off of these institutions and these student-athletes are giving up a lot of their own time to make them their money.

 

They do already. But yea I'd be fine with an increase to it.

 

Also, they are being paid market value. This is the best deal they have right now. Anyone is free to step up and pay them more and/or not ban them from their league.

[FVBrewerFan]

Here's yet another problem with paying student athletes "what they're worth." How do you determine what the backup punter for Western Michigan should earn vs the starting QB at Alabama? Or the bench warmer for Montana vs a star player from Duke? For the matter, WHO would determine this?

[paul253]

Its kinda sad that the NBAs developmental league is such a dud becuase it could really be something good. A ton of these guys who are drafted have no business being in the NBA right now and could benefit from playing in a minor league. And I'm sure you could get more major cities (Kansas City, St Louis, San Francisco, San Jose, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Hartford, etc) to vie for franchises. The NBA could increase their draft to four or five rounds, each franchise gets a minor league team and elimate the rule barring HS kids from being drafted. Minor league teams could be filled in from draftees, free agents and international players. Salaries maybe ranging from $100,000-$250,000.

 

This is something I think a good, wealthy businessman could start on his own. Six franchises in larger cities hat already have capable arenas. Get a tv deal with ESPN or Fox and court High School players who can't enter the draft yet, international players and college seniors who graduate but

aren't drafted.

[Samurai Bucky]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/sports/wp/2015/11/23/running-up-the-bills/?utm_term=.4af3b0d1ad87

 

Very lengthy and somewhat old article. However, it has a lot of good charts, graphs, and content.

 

Let's follow a train of thought: athletes get a scholarship and also get a stipend from the school. What should that stipend be? $200/week? What would that stipend be used for? The 53" TVs I see in many athletes rooms might not be big enough, I guess. Also, keep in mind that for sports like softball, swimming, wrestling, etc., athletes rarely get a 100% full ride. Many times, the program is given a small number of scholarships, 8 for example, that need to be divided up among 20 athletes.

 

What do athletes at D1 schools receive? (my daughter played softball at a D3 school, and received none of these) Training table (i.e. food), a personal athletic trainer, tutors if necessary, among other things. The daughter of a friend of mine is playing volleyball at the University of Minnesota. She was surprised when each member of the team has their own personal trainer. Yes... a 1-to-1 ratio. She is only receiving a 50% scholarship (IIRC), but is getting a lot of other benefits that I never had access to.

 

Should those trainers be paid? I doubt they would be. They will most likely graduate with tens of thousands in debt while my friends daughter will most likely have little to no debt.

 

Players should not be paid a salary above and beyond their scholarship... period.

[Baldkin]

Yes.....when they hold a job. Playing basketball isn't a job. It's an activity. It's a playing a game. It's something tens of millions of people do around the country for fun.

 

 

Tens of millions of people write code for fun. Should college students not get paid for doing that?

Tens of millions of people cook for fun, should college students not get paid for doing that?

 

The basis of your argument is flawed.

 

http://college.usatoday.com/2016/10/20/should-athletes-be-paid-to-play/

 

Athletes work more than most students. The NCAA has a regulation that is intended to limit training for players to 20 hours per week. Would you be surprised to learn that very few athletes reported only practicing 20 hours per week? According to an NCAA survey conducted in 2011, Division I football players averaged 43 hours a week. Baseball came in second with 42.1 hours and men’s basketball came in third with 39.2. These are in-season numbers. This means that on top of class work and homework, athletes are working a full-time job.....

 

...stipends average between $2,000 and $5,000 annually. How many of us can live off of $2,000 a year? To put this in context, let’s say I work for a company that offers tuition assistance. Let’s say that this company offers to assist my whole tuition for being a full-time employee, but my paycheck every two weeks works out to be $77. Could I live off that? Even as a full-time employee with access to the employee cafeteria? I don’t think many of us could, yet we expect athletes to do so.

[Baldkin]

So your attitude to someone trying to change the status quo in college athletics is, "Don't try to change anything, you signed up for this, plus you get to be famous in Madison."

 

No my attitude is you know what you signed up for so stopping acting like you're some poor unsuspecting victim. I mean serioulsly, walking around with these "broke athlete" signs? I'm so sorry that he gets a four year degree without paying a dime AND gets a monthly stipend on top of that just for being an athlete. Please, allow me to throw some money his way.

 

Perhaps someone should send him a bill showing him what he would have paid for college if he wasn't good at basketball.

 

And perhaps he should have gone to Turkey or Greece to play professionally three years ago if playing NCAA basketball is causing him to go broke.

 

 

Stop using Straw Man arguments and discuss the issue, not Nigel Hayes, you're also completely misrepresenting the young man in your haste to establish a false cause argument.

 

He used that sign to raise awareness. He wasn't complaining, he has used his celebrity as a Badger to attempt to change the status quo and raise THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS for charity. That "Broke athlete" sign you like to harp on was used to (as I pointed out before) raise thousands of dollars for the Madison Boys & Girls club, but apparently that doesn't matter to you. He never once acted like a victim. Never once. Just stated the facts. Period.

 

I ask you this, how would you have someone who feels that workers, in the future, need to be paid more, go about changing the status quo?

[tmwiese55]

Its kinda sad that the NBAs developmental league is such a dud becuase it could really be something good. A ton of these guys who are drafted have no business being in the NBA right now and could benefit from playing in a minor league. And I'm sure you could get more major cities (Kansas City, St Louis, San Francisco, San Jose, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Hartford, etc) to vie for franchises. The NBA could increase their draft to four or five rounds, each franchise gets a minor league team and elimate the rule barring HS kids from being drafted. Minor league teams could be filled in from draftees, free agents and international players. Salaries maybe ranging from $100,000-$250,000.

 

This is something I think a good, wealthy businessman could start on his own. Six franchises in larger cities hat already have capable arenas. Get a tv deal with ESPN or Fox and court High School players who can't enter the draft yet, international players and college seniors who graduate but

aren't drafted.

 

I believe the new NBA CBA allows for a couple flex roster spots to bounce back and forth from the D league and the salary is going up to 75K in the D league as opposed to like 25k now. So this is the route the NBA seems to be taking to try and fix this argument along with keeping the best 'next tier' guys in USA easily accessed by the NBA rather than on a contract in Europe. This seems like a good first step to me. I guess I'm not sure if they'll allow HS kids to play a year there and then get drafted though, I mean, if they're going to allow that then why not just let them go to the NBA? Maybe that's the next step though, they want to establish the D league more and get a team affiliated with every NBA team and then they'll allow the rule to be dropped? Maybe IDK.

[paul253]

The basis of your argument is flawed.

 

It's not. My argument is they are not employees so therefore they shouldn't be paid like they are or be able to organize like they are. I don't see how college basketball is any different than high school basketball in that it's essentially an extracurricular activity. They are students on the basketball team, not employees of the university. The school and the conference making money off the basketball team doesn't change that. And if you argue it does then you'd have to argue athletes on teams that make money are employees and athletes on teams that don't make money aren't, which makes zero sense. This all emotional argument on your behalf. It doesn't make sense. They aren't in any way employees, no matter how much the basketball team makes.

 

As for Nigel Hayes. As I said, good for him for raising money for charity. But to claim he didn't portray himself as a poor college student with that sign is a joke. He clearly portrayed himself as someone who was being taken advantage of him. He gets credit for making it more than about him, but this was also about him. And while he was able to raise money for charity the goal is not to raise money for charity. The goal is to raise money for college athletes.

 

I ask you this, how would you have someone who feels that workers, in the future, need to be paid more, go about changing the status quo

 

It doesn't matter because I don't believe they are workers. As I said they are students on the basketball team, not employees.