The Investment Thread

[nodakfan17]

Igor, what’s the stock in question?

 

Most companies hire out their shareholder services to a handful of large firms. Rather than contact the company directly, shareholders should contact the company’s ‘transfer agent’ for these types of inquiries. You can probably search the company’s Investor Relations page for the transfer agent, but a simple internet search could probably identify it. The transfer agents are pretty good at resolving these issues because they are paid to meticulously track who owns what shares.

[igor67]

Thanks I'll try that. The company in question is small enough that I'd rather not say. I was able to locate the listed transfer agent, though so far their website seems expertly crafted to avoid direct customer contact.

[nodakfan17]

Even though I’m a pretty diligent saver, I feel behind on saving for retirement. I finished college during the financial crisis and it took my career a few years to gain some traction. Yesterday, I was encouraged by a CNBC article that laid out how much a person needs to save per month to become a millionaire in 20 years:

 

$3,100 / month with a 3% return

$2,200 / month with a 6% return

$1,600 / month with a 9% return

 

A person could save nothing before age 40 and probably still hit $1 million by putting away $2,000 / month for 20 years.

[MrTPlush]

At what point does $1mil stop being a gold standard to look at? I mean, maybe that is an okay amount for someone retiring in 2022, but if you were talking to someone 20-40 years out....I don't think $1mil is really the greatest benchmark.

[nodakfan17]

At what point does $1mil stop being a gold standard to look at? I mean, maybe that is an okay amount for someone retiring in 2022, but if you were talking to someone 20-40 years out....I don't think $1mil is really the greatest benchmark.

Totally fair point. Who knows how far $1 million will go in 20 years? I think the $1 million threshold will always carry some charm for retail investors because it’s such a nice, round number.

[PlayerHader]

Even though I’m a pretty diligent saver, I feel behind on saving for retirement. I finished college during the financial crisis and it took my career a few years to gain some traction. Yesterday, I was encouraged by a CNBC article that laid out how much a person needs to save per month to become a millionaire in 20 years:

 

$3,100 / month with a 3% return

$2,200 / month with a 6% return

$1,600 / month with a 9% return

 

A person could save nothing before age 40 and probably still hit $1 million by putting away $2,000 / month for 20 years.

 

I finished college around the same time (Dec. 2009), but was able to get a job in my career field immediately (partially because nobody wanted to get into education starting around this time). I didn't quite manage the 4-year plan, so I was about to turn 25 at graduation.

 

Thankfully I had some forced savings through my pension at that time, but I didn't open a 403(b) until 2017, and that was mostly because my district began offering a $1k match to do so. I wish I hadn't waited until I was 32 years old to do this, but the second best time to start investing is right now, so I'm happy I finally got around to it.

 

I've since opened a Roth IRA, as well and contribute a small amount to that each month. Between the 403(b) and Roth IRA I am contributing just over 8% of my gross to retirement accounts. With the 6.5% that goes to my pension and 6.5% matched by the district, I feel pretty solid about retirement, but you still always wonder.

 

We had a pretty fantastic retirement thread on here a couple years back...I may have to search for that and revive it.

[GAME05]

Grad school and then not finding a job after the Crash sucked my savings dry. I've got a 6% matching 401k and what will be a modest pension, but I'm hopefully starting a second job soon and intend to put every penny I make into retirement. The second job is specifically because I need the extra income to retire.

 

Ideally I plan to expatriate to Belize and if I can, a tiny place back in Wisconsin.

[MrTPlush]

Kinda glad I graduated into a decent economy with a good knowledge of investing/401Ks. I think I had enough in retirement at about 24 for it to project to be $1mil at retirement. That was just casually chasing the 5% match.

 

I want to find a different job sooner or later though so I can opt out of the pension...that money would do me way more good invested into the market versus some marginal pension amount decades from now. I also maxed out my carryover leave year to year so when I eventually move on I can take the leave payout and put it into retirement.

[CheezWizHed]

At what point does $1mil stop being a gold standard to look at? I mean, maybe that is an okay amount for someone retiring in 2022, but if you were talking to someone 20-40 years out....I don't think $1mil is really the greatest benchmark.

 

The easiest way IMO is to project out what your income needs would be. Most places I've seen say that you need 80-90% of your current income in retirement (based on whether you have a mortgage or want to travel, etc..)

 

Then your income times 25 would be your retirement need to last approx 30 years. https://www.fool.com/retirement/how-much-do-i-need/

 

If you are X years from retirement, you can project your current 80-90% income by the typical 2-3% average inflation and use that as your target.

 

Of course, there are many special circumstances that may factor in. Your retirement income needs might drop considerably from current if you have kids that move out of the house. Or pay off your mortgage. Or you may have kids still living with you... The idea is to project out your potential future annual income needs. Do a best case and worst case scenario and see what variations might be there.

 

I did this for myself a year ago and feel much better about my plan to retire at 59.5. Plus, I know what my variables are and can work on them to mitigate the "worst case" scenarios (e.g. pay off my mortgage sooner).

[GAME05]

My retirement is confusing since I won't have 30 years in with the pension and paying a percent of health care benefit, etc. If it costs a couple hundred bucks to see a financial analyst that sure seems worth it to have someone else figure it all out for you, not to mention they'll know variables maybe you/me haven't thought of yet. And a lot of the times whatever company does your company's 401k will meet with you for free.

[PlayerHader]

At what point does $1mil stop being a gold standard to look at? I mean, maybe that is an okay amount for someone retiring in 2022, but if you were talking to someone 20-40 years out....I don't think $1mil is really the greatest benchmark.

 

The easiest way IMO is to project out what your income needs would be. Most places I've seen say that you need 80-90% of your current income in retirement (based on whether you have a mortgage or want to travel, etc..)

 

Then your income times 25 would be your retirement need to last approx 30 years. https://www.fool.com/retirement/how-much-do-i-need/

 

If you are X years from retirement, you can project your current 80-90% income by the typical 2-3% average inflation and use that as your target.

 

Of course, there are many special circumstances that may factor in. Your retirement income needs might drop considerably from current if you have kids that move out of the house. Or pay off your mortgage. Or you may have kids still living with you... The idea is to project out your potential future annual income needs. Do a best case and worst case scenario and see what variations might be there.

 

I did this for myself a year ago and feel much better about my plan to retire at 59.5. Plus, I know what my variables are and can work on them to mitigate the "worst case" scenarios (e.g. pay off my mortgage sooner).

 

80-90% of current income would allow for a pretty decent upgrade in lifestyle for most, I would think. You're probably paying less taxes at that point if you did a little planning. You are no longer forced to save a significant portion of your income at that point (probably 10-30% for many). There's a decent chance you'll no longer have a mortgage payment, at least through much of retirement.

 

Right now my wife and I have nearly 50% of our income going to retirement/savings and our mortgage payment. Those are all expenses that will be gone at retirement with some planning.

[MrTPlush]

I wonder sometimes how many actually have no mortgage or rent in retirement. It just seems so many pay off (or get close) to paying off that first mortgage and make the big upgrade to a new house. Thus pretty much having a mortgage forever.

 

It is certainly a major financial advantage if you pay off your original mortgage and stay in that house...it just seems really unlikely these days many are doing that.

 

In some ways you save in retirement...but in other ways not so much. The average person probably travels A LOT more in retirement than they did prior. That is probably a big expense to be adding yearly.

[Dean Machine]

At what point does $1mil stop being a gold standard to look at? I mean, maybe that is an okay amount for someone retiring in 2022, but if you were talking to someone 20-40 years out....I don't think $1mil is really the greatest benchmark.

 

The easiest way IMO is to project out what your income needs would be. Most places I've seen say that you need 80-90% of your current income in retirement (based on whether you have a mortgage or want to travel, etc..)

 

Then your income times 25 would be your retirement need to last approx 30 years. https://www.fool.com/retirement/how-much-do-i-need/

 

If you are X years from retirement, you can project your current 80-90% income by the typical 2-3% average inflation and use that as your target.

 

Of course, there are many special circumstances that may factor in. Your retirement income needs might drop considerably from current if you have kids that move out of the house. Or pay off your mortgage. Or you may have kids still living with you... The idea is to project out your potential future annual income needs. Do a best case and worst case scenario and see what variations might be there.

 

I did this for myself a year ago and feel much better about my plan to retire at 59.5. Plus, I know what my variables are and can work on them to mitigate the "worst case" scenarios (e.g. pay off my mortgage sooner).

 

80-90% of current income would allow for a pretty decent upgrade in lifestyle for most, I would think. You're probably paying less taxes at that point if you did a little planning. You are no longer forced to save a significant portion of your income at that point (probably 10-30% for many). There's a decent chance you'll no longer have a mortgage payment, at least through much of retirement.

 

Right now my wife and I have nearly 50% of our income going to retirement/savings and our mortgage payment. Those are all expenses that will be gone at retirement with some planning.

 

I completely agree with you about the 80 or 90 percent being an over-estimate as like you said we put 33 percent into retirement but I think people are doing this to be safe with inflation over the long-term. I use the Personal Capital retirement calculator and I tell you what if you even move inflation up half a tick from the 3.5 norm to 4% your net worth craters over the next 40 years.

 

I am also going to be mortgage free when I retire but when I look at the numbers the actual mortgage we carry is probably around than half the cost of living in a house (obviously everyone's numbers will be different depending on price paid and interest rate etc.) and those numbers increase unlike mortgage payments. To live in our mid-size house and to pay the insurance, property taxes, heat, electric, garbage, water and everything you HAVE to pay (not counting things like internet and cable) still costs over a grand a month. I basically keep track of every penny we spend and it comes out around 4k a month with mortgage over the last 3 year sand I have entered into the calculator anticipated spending of 5k (without mortgage) just to be safe and have the inflation set at 4 percent and then I start reducing our spending at around the age of 75 by 1 percent a year.

 

I find the calculator to be fascinating to play with all the scenarios. I'm planning on retiring in 7 years at 55 and it's pretty scary with (hopefully) that much time left to live (especially since my wife will be 49) and basically cutting off any major sources of income.

[umphrey]

I always thought it was a big oversight to not talk about Roth vs. Trad in retirement planning. 70% income in a Roth is a lifestyle upgrade but 70% in traditional is a downgrade.

[LouisEly]

I wonder sometimes how many actually have no mortgage or rent in retirement. It just seems so many pay off (or get close) to paying off that first mortgage and make the big upgrade to a new house. Thus pretty much having a mortgage forever.

 

It is certainly a major financial advantage if you pay off your original mortgage and stay in that house...it just seems really unlikely these days many are doing that.

 

In some ways you save in retirement...but in other ways not so much. The average person probably travels A LOT more in retirement than they did prior. That is probably a big expense to be adding yearly.

I think my parents bought their first house in the early 70's for ~$10,000. They stayed in it until 2009. Interest rates were high back then, but they refinanced along the way and by the 90's their housing payment was nothing compared to their income so they could start investing. That investing and minuscule house payment allowed them to buy a small lake house (2 very small BRs, couldn't have been more than 1000 sq ft) in the early/mid 2000s.

 

The rise in property values along with the drop in interest rates has given many people who bought homes in the 70's and 80's an incredible amount of equity and ability to invest. There are many like them who can buy a new house in retirement because of the equity they've built and not have a big mortgage.

 

That being said, my parent's financial advisor has been great about educating them to allocate their money to the highest interest rates and keeping a mortgage at 3% and putting their money in investments making 7-10% and use the yield from their investments to pay their refi mortgage. If people are financially savvy and secure, they should have a mortgage.

 

For me, my rental properties will be paid off in 14 years, roughly when I will retire, and I'll sell those and use that to purchase my retirement home. They're worth almost $500k right now, so in retirement I should be able to buy the equivalent of a $500K home today and not have a mortgage (if I don't want one, depending on interest rates).

[nodakfan17]

I get both sides to the mortgage argument, and both are equally valid, IMHO. Yes, you can slowly pay down your mortgage and invest your remaining capital to earn returns that exceed your mortgage interest (provided, you’re willing to accept some market risk). You can also aggressively pay down your mortgage to eliminate debt and unnecessary interest payments. Both approaches are infinitely better than conspicuous consumption.

[zurch1818]

I'm turning 35 this year and my wife and I are scheduled to pay off our mortgage this year (4 years). Granted, we saved money like crazy to put a huge 60% down payment and have been aggressive on paying down our mortgage while still contributing to retirement enough to where we aren't ignoring it.

 

For me, it's all about cash flow. I look at it as getting an under the table (taxes have already been paid on it) $1500 raise per month. It just frees us up to get more aggressive with our investments or go on a random trip while not having to worry about losing a job or some other unforeseen issue. We also should be able to be more generous in causes we believe in too.

 

I feel the group that talks about always having a mortgage doesn't account for risk as much as I do. Sure you can in theory make more money, but you can also lose it if the market crashes right when you lose your job and now you can't make payments. No thank you for me. With having no mortgage and reduced expenses, I won't need as much money to be happy.

 

I think as people say though, as long as you have a plan, you should be good. The bottom line is you need to save money for retirement. If you don't save any money and keep refinancing, you will end up chasing your tail and will work forever.

 

Because of the nerd in me, I am going to miss tracking our mortgage. I will say that I'm shocked how little it has saved us in interest to date, some $3k over making only minimum payments. However, over the life of the 15 year loan, it will save us a whopping $41k over making minimum payments.

 

Oh the refinance that we did last year is going to save us about $300 (including closing costs). Seems like a waste for all the effort that went into it now. Oh well, it bought us security by severely reducing our minimum payment as my income at the moment is highly variable in a given year.

[nodakfan17]

^^^

That’s terrific. Congrats!

 

I feel an underrated aspect of the aggressive mortgage pay down strategy is the elimination of a fairly large re-occurring liability. Just from a mental accounting standpoint, it’d be nice to not have that huge outlay there every month. It frees you up to be more opportunistic (or generous),

 

I’ve sort of split the difference by paying off an extra ~$200 every month. I feel good about putting a small dent in my mortgage every month, but I also have cash on hand to meet unexpected expenses and buy dips in my brokerage accounts.

[zurch1818]

Thanks. I think any little bit makes a huge difference in the long run. With how mortgages are structured, I feel like how they make you want to make minimum payments.

 

I just took your extra $200 a month and put it in my spreadsheet (as if it were me on my mortgage, your milage may vary). It would have saved me about $12k in interest (20% of the total) and shaved off almost 3 years from my 15 year note. Crazy how little of an effort can have such a big effect. Slow and steady wins the race. Keep doing what your doing!

[PlayerHader]

Yeah, I waver on the idea of paying off a mortgage early. We just built and are about 6 months into a 30 year mortgage at 2.75%. I absolutely plan on retiring within 25 years (hopefully 20; I'm 37). I won't retire with a mortgage, but right now it makes sense for us to put extra money into our retirement accounts to get them working for us. As a teacher, my job is about as safe as can be. My wife also has a very secure job, so that makes it easier for us to assume the "risk" of the mortgage.

 

At some point, probably around age 50 when both kids will be out of HS, the plan will be to attack the mortgage. Obviously things can change, but that is the plan.

[homer]

^^^

That’s terrific. Congrats!

 

I feel an underrated aspect of the aggressive mortgage pay down strategy is the elimination of a fairly large re-occurring liability. Just from a mental accounting standpoint, it’d be nice to not have that huge outlay there every month. It frees you up to be more opportunistic (or generous),

 

I’ve sort of split the difference by paying off an extra ~$200 every month. I feel good about putting a small dent in my mortgage every month, but I also have cash on hand to meet unexpected expenses and buy dips in my brokerage accounts.

 

That's what I did when I owned property. I ended up making one extra mortgage payment a year.

[umphrey]

I have a house at 3% and a car at 0.9% and I'm not paying a cent early on either one. Would rather invest it. Can make more money in the market. Plus i really like the flexibility of having a nice taxable investment account to dip into from time to time for big purchases.

[PlayerHader]

I have a house at 3% and a car at 0.9% and I'm not paying a cent early on either one. Would rather invest it. Can make more money in the market. Plus i really like the flexibility of having a nice taxable investment account to dip into from time to time for big purchases.

 

This is what I currently do not have that I wish I did. Should be able to start something up after fully settling into the new budget with the new home.

[TURBO]

We paid off our mortgage about 6 years early by paying extra every single month we had the mortgage. We tried to pay $200 extra a month, and as time went on, we started paying $500 extra once we were financially set. I never figured out how much we saved in interest by paying it off early, but it had to be A LOT over the life of the loan.

 

It was like being released from prison when we paid our last mortgage payment...

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I think mortgage vs. investing is highly dependent on several variables. If I had a $600k (assuming WI prices) mortgage an outstanding balance like that would give me anxiety even if I could easily sustain that standard of living. At a lower-priced home (assuming it is well beneath means) I am much more comfortable paying the minimum and investing all excess. I think where a lot of people go wrong is telling themselves they'll do that and not actually doing it. Cars, boats, etc. I would never want to carry around regardless of rate.

 

I totally get the mental peace of paying a mortgage down early and if you do pay it off early it probably does feel great. However if I ran an extra $500/mo through a simulator to see what it would have done in the markets over 25-30 years and instead chose to pay down a mortgage, I think I'd probably start crying at the numbers.

 

In reality if you paid a mortgage off 8 years early or funneled that amount toward retirement instead, you probably are doing just fine.