The Investment Thread

[nate82]

You can basically buy anything and everything in Japan with Bitcoins. I believe you can do that in South Korea also and some of the other smaller countries in Asia also. There is a strip club in Nevada that you can pay in Bitcoin and also a gun store in Texas that you can purchase guns with Bitcoin. There are other applications that can be used with the chainblock technology other than Bitcoin.

 

Though ultimately I would love to see the US go back to the gold standard but instead of gold tie the US currency to Bitcoin. I think more countries will start to do this especially if the dollar keeps on dropping like it has. At some point the fiat currencies will either be toilet paper or backed up by something like gold or Bitcoin basically monetary policy should go backwards to be able to move forward.

[igor67]

I'm sorry nate but I don't follow your reasoning at all. Bitcoin is practically the embodiment of innovation making something that never existed before and turning it into a commodity. You literally just run computers to mine more. Whereas gold is completely limited, at best you can create more wealth by digging more out of the ground but it is still highly limited.

[nate82]

I'm sorry nate but I don't follow your reasoning at all. Bitcoin is practically the embodiment of innovation making something that never existed before and turning it into a commodity. You literally just run computers to mine more. Whereas gold is completely limited, at best you can create more wealth by digging more out of the ground but it is still highly limited.

 

There can only ever be 21 million Bitcoin in existence you can't mine anymore than that.

 

So Bitcoin is the better choice over gold as you can't create more the 21 million.

[igor67]

Thank you I was unaware of that particular detail. That does leave me wondering why you would want to make it so as we have more people (about 2 billion more by 2050) you would guarantee there to be exactly the same amount of money available as that just makes everyone poorer (on average)

[nate82]

Thank you I was unaware of that particular detail. That does leave me wondering why you would want to make it so as we have more people (about 2 billion more by 2050) you would guarantee there to be exactly the same amount of money available as that just makes everyone poorer (on average)

 

No it won't make everyone poorer the printing of more and more money is what does that.

[nodakfan17]

Thank you I was unaware of that particular detail. That does leave me wondering why you would want to make it so as we have more people (about 2 billion more by 2050) you would guarantee there to be exactly the same amount of money available as that just makes everyone poorer (on average)

Sure, as the population grows, the average person might possess less Bitcoin. However, the remaining Bitcoin would be more valuable. If a new car costs 1 Bitcoin in 2050, it might only cost 0.99 Bitcoin in 2051.

[igor67]

That also means if you are say a ditch digger paid in Bitcoin you would need to be paid less wage in the future than you are now. Which maybe in theory sound workable, but what happens when someone invents something like say a vaccine that most people desperately want, but actually costs very little to produce? Since we'd have to pay some amount of Bitcoin for this new thing, everyone else has less Bitcoin to spend and the car dealer has to immediately lower his price to compensate (or sell fewer cars), but the cost of car was already set by the higher prices he paid for wages and materials!

You need the amount of currency to be changeable since people generate so many less than tangible products and are also both resources (more labor) and costs (more food and cars). Hyper inflation and deflation are both signs that whatever currency you are using is completely out of touch with with people need for survival and prosperity.

[nodakfan17]

Even the most bullish crypto enthusiasts probably view Bitcoin as a viable alternative to the fiat currency issued by governments (not a replacement). Me personally? I’m a little skeptical, but I like diversification and value freedom of choice.

[nate82]

That also means if you are say a ditch digger paid in Bitcoin you would need to be paid less wage in the future than you are now. Which maybe in theory sound workable, but what happens when someone invents something like say a vaccine that most people desperately want, but actually costs very little to produce? Since we'd have to pay some amount of Bitcoin for this new thing, everyone else has less Bitcoin to spend and the car dealer has to immediately lower his price to compensate (or sell fewer cars), but the cost of car was already set by the higher prices he paid for wages and materials!

You need the amount of currency to be changeable since people generate so many less than tangible products and are also both resources (more labor) and costs (more food and cars). Hyper inflation and deflation are both signs that whatever currency you are using is completely out of touch with with people need for survival and prosperity.

 

You are thinking of this entirely wrong. If you attach a currency to Bitcoin you would be paid in the currency not in Bitcoin. The value of the currency depending on how much you print will be tied to Bitcoin and thus would have actual value and backing behind it. If a country goes crazy and prints off a lot of money the valuation of that said currency would then go down because it would then buy less Bitcoin.

 

This would actually force governments to be more wise with their currency and debt. Instead of just passing it on to whatever generation which is what the fiat currencies have done this may not make people poorer today but it will definitely make the poor poorer in the future.

[nodakfan17]

This would actually force governments to be more wise with their currency and debt. Instead of just passing it on to whatever generation which is what the fiat currencies have done this may not make people poorer today but it will definitely make the poor poorer in the future.

This is why I like crypto. I don’t own much, but its very existence might force central banks to act more responsibly. Competition is good.

[igor67]

While I am not a Bitcoin fan (or gold) for somewhat distinct reasons I would be far more worried about a return to the gold standard for general economic reasons, not investing reasons. If you are talking about just creating a permanently fixed asset for trade that is a very different discussion, it is basically the same as investing in something like ultra rare cars.

[GAME05]

its very existence might force central banks to act more responsibly.

 

Come on now, I think you know full well that will never be the case.

[owbc]

I just don't understand why you wouldn't just invest in stocks when you have so many corporations making absurd amounts of money right now. Amazon is at $3100 right now. It was $1900 a year ago, $1500 the year before that, $1200 the year before that, etc. etc. It's as close to guaranteed profit as you can get.

[nodakfan17]

While I am not a Bitcoin fan (or gold) for somewhat distinct reasons I would be far more worried about a return to the gold standard for general economic reasons, not investing reasons. If you are talking about just creating a permanently fixed asset for trade that is a very different discussion, it is basically the same as investing in something like ultra rare cars.

A rare car might be a good store of value, but it’s not really a suitable medium of exchange (you can’t use it to buy groceries). Bitcoin and precious metals are easily divisible and could be used to facilitate commerce.

 

I think we can forget a return to the gold standard. When FDR took the US off the gold standard in 1933, the price of gold was $25 per ounce. Today gold is ~$1,900 per ounce. People are going to know something is up.

[nate82]

I think we can forget a return to the gold standard. When FDR took the US off the gold standard in 1933, the price of gold was $25 per ounce. Today gold is ~$1,900 per ounce. People are going to know something is up.

 

The only reason it was that low is because of other factors though it did increase in price magically after all of the gold was stolen from the American people by FDR. The greatest transfer of wealth from the regular people to the government in recent history. I believe going back to the gold standard will actually increase the wealth of the poor and return what was wrongfully stolen from the people.

[LouisEly]

I think cryptocurrency is on the right path, but I don't know that Bitcoin or the others are it. What I think is the value of cryptocurrency is the ability to use blockchain or similar technology to track ownership and be able to "cancel" (for lack of a better word) currency that is acquired by illegal means (such as ransoms, fraud, etc.). Plenty of holes to shoot in that idea, but I think there is something along those lines that is possible.

[igor67]

Gold has a few other uses, but it's real world value is it's incredibly high electrical conductivity and great resistance to corrosion. So I find it very unfortunate that this rare substance is mostly wasted on a medium for trade because our ancestors thought it looked pretty and gave it value based purely on the power of belief, especially since we have found other items to use purely as convenient methods of trade.

[nodakfan17]

I think we can forget a return to the gold standard. When FDR took the US off the gold standard in 1933, the price of gold was $25 per ounce. Today gold is ~$1,900 per ounce. People are going to know something is up.

 

The only reason it was that low is because of other factors though it did increase in price magically after all of the gold was stolen from the American people by FDR. The greatest transfer of wealth from the regular people to the government in recent history. I believe going back to the gold standard will actually increase the wealth of the poor and return what was wrongfully stolen from the people.

When gold became illegal for individuals to own during the Great Depression, the US government bought it back from individuals at $25/oz and then later declared its value to be $35/oz. That’s a pretty big swindle, but it doesn’t explain how gold went from $35 to $1,900.

[igor67]

Normal inflation would account for most of that price shift, without resorting to a formula car prices in the Depression were 1-2000 dollars and my grandfather purchased his house for $1000, in a small town of no particular economic value that sold for $40K years ago. That gives a range of 20-40 times an increase due to inflation. Those are crude comparisons of course, but inflation clearly explains most of that price change. I can sort of see where some of those historical details support a notion of something lost, I do not know the precise amount of gold back currency my grandfather had in 1933, but I do know that because of the WPA he had a job and was able to keep making the payments on that house and turn that into a solid blue collar life, so I'd have a hard time claiming he came out behind. Somewhat more generally I think it is worth asking in general how far back in time one is willing to hold onto that type of grievance. I said generally because there are other types of calls for settling old disputes that I don't think we (collective) do ourselves any favors in demanding direct compensation for. In this case my grandfather has been dead for 29+ years, which means a pretty good portion of this board wasn't even alive to have any kind of connection to that. So while understanding the history is always super relevant, any policy needs to be firmly grounded in the needs of the present and future.

[GAME05]

Would sure love to make a play on solar. One would figure Biden will eventually be throwing a lot of money at it along with Congress making sure subsidies are in every forthcoming stimulus bill like the last one. And hadn't Trump raised tariffs on Chinese solar? One would guess Biden will also repeal those and China makes more PV cells than anyone. I see that Jinko Solar is on the exchange, though I haven't really run its numbers yet. Any other recommendations folks here might have?

[thebruce44]

This would actually force governments to be more wise with their currency and debt. Instead of just passing it on to whatever generation which is what the fiat currencies have done this may not make people poorer today but it will definitely make the poor poorer in the future.

This is why I like crypto. I don’t own much, but its very existence might force central banks to act more responsibly. Competition is good.

 

The text attached to the Bitcoin genesis block was "the Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks". This was the ultimate goal. You can argue Bitcoin has strayed from the original vision, since it is now somewhat centralized in mining pools and requires so much energy. It is also not an efficient way to transfer money. The protocol has not advanced, hence the idea of it being a store of value.

 

I am not going to argue for Bitcoin though. I own a bit because I see it as a good investment in this current cycle. Most of my investment is in Ethereum and I hold a lot of IOTA, though that hasn't been a great investment so far. I view ETH as the next stage of distributed ledger technology, and IOTA as the next stage after ETH. These technologies could change so much more than just finance in the long run.

[nate82]

Would sure love to make a play on solar. One would figure Biden will eventually be throwing a lot of money at it along with Congress making sure subsidies are in every forthcoming stimulus bill like the last one. And hadn't Trump raised tariffs on Chinese solar? One would guess Biden will also repeal those and China makes more PV cells than anyone. I see that Jinko Solar is on the exchange, though I haven't really run its numbers yet. Any other recommendations folks here might have?

 

Stay far far far far far away from solar.

[homer]

Would sure love to make a play on solar. One would figure Biden will eventually be throwing a lot of money at it along with Congress making sure subsidies are in every forthcoming stimulus bill like the last one. And hadn't Trump raised tariffs on Chinese solar? One would guess Biden will also repeal those and China makes more PV cells than anyone. I see that Jinko Solar is on the exchange, though I haven't really run its numbers yet. Any other recommendations folks here might have?

 

Fuel cells are good one to check out if you want to look at alternate energy.

 

FCEL

[GAME05]

Yeah my father had told me to buy FCEL when it was at $3. But I did what all sons do when fathers give advice.

 

So you think solar wont pick up? I already have Energy Transfer, so Im not looking to do more oil/gas.

 

I picked up Intel on its dip a bit ago, but I have no real long-term hope for it and wouldnt mind moving it to something else.

[homer]

There are some solar ETFs you might want to check out.