Hart and Burdette named to Wall of Honor

[rickh150]

From MJS article....

Several questions come to mind with this.....

 

Why wasn't Burdette in with the other few dozen selected a few years back? Wasn't the Wall of Honor based solely on stats? Counsell is in, but Burdette has to wait a few years? Craziness! Somebody help me out here.

 

Also, no surprise that no one was selected to Walk of Fame..... many years went without an inductee. Yet, how are Jenkins and Del Crandle leading the voting? How do they even mildly compare to Pete Vuchovic (82 Cy Young Winner) and Ted Simmons (borderline HOF type catcher) who are not in. Gorman was inducted early on for his HR king and Brewer persona (Gantner too) and his lifetime avg. is .229!!! Don Money is in? Fingers is on every Wall and Walk, number retired, and how many actual innings did he pitch in Milwaukee? His first was stellar (81' Cy Young AND MVP.... what were those voters drinking?), but he was hurt late in 82 and on and off the next few seasons, just a shell of himself.

 

Huge inconsistencies! Crandall and Jenkins leading the voting?

[BuckyBrewer61]

A bit of a tangent - but I personally really wish Milwaukee would retire some old Milwaukee Braves numbers. At least Mathews and Spahn, who played a combined 1 year in Atlanta where their numbers are retired, and 25 years in Milwaukee.

 

Not sure if this is even allowed by MLB, but would those guys feel any sense of connection to Atlanta baseball? If we retired the number of a guy who appeared in less than 200 games here, they should retire those of true Milwaukee baseball legends. Maybe I'm just wishing our wall of retired numbers and pennants was a bit less sad...

[rickh150]

Fingers number retired vs. Vuc not even in the Walk of Fame

Burdette JUST NOW getting in the lower end Wall of Honor vs. Gorman and his .229 lifetime average in the notch up Walk of Fame years ago.

??????????

[Outlander]

Jenkins deserves the walk of fame over Simmons and deserves to be the next member of the walk of fame, Simmons had a great career but wasn't great with the Brewers. Not sure why you would be upset over Simmons but then complain about Fingers as Fingers meant much more to the Brewers.

[Bikeage77]

That wall of fame is a joke there is obviously players up there that belong, but it was mostly set up to add an attraction to Miller Park. The Brewers don't have a rich history like the Yankees, Giants, Dodgers, or Cardinals, so they created one. I'm not complaining, but when you take it for what it is, it doesn't really matter who made it up there in front of someone else.

 

At least the Walk of Fame is preventing players from getting in. And yeah, Jenkins should probably be next, but I'd still think he's borderline. Out of curiosity, what are people's thoughts about Ben Sheets on the Walk of Fame?

[JohnBriggs12]

A bit of a tangent - but I personally really wish Milwaukee would retire some old Milwaukee Braves numbers. At least Mathews and Spahn, who played a combined 1 year in Atlanta where their numbers are retired, and 25 years in Milwaukee.

 

Not sure if this is even allowed by MLB, but would those guys feel any sense of connection to Atlanta baseball? If we retired the number of a guy who appeared in less than 200 games here, they should retire those of true Milwaukee baseball legends. Maybe I'm just wishing our wall of retired numbers and pennants was a bit less sad...

 

Nothing sickened this old Milwaukee Brave fan more than to see photos of Warren Spahn and Eddie Mathews plastered on the wall at Turner Field. Spahn never wore an Atlanta uniform and Mathews did only briefly. Not to relive the whole horrendous stealing of the franchise, but stuff like this just pours salt in the wounds that never heal. A lot of old Milwaukee Braves fans had allegiances before the Braves arrived and got over their leaving, but for us baby boomers born between 1947 and 1956, the Braves were our first baseball love and Mathews our first hero. It still hurts.

 

By the way, the Burdette honor was long overdue.

[BrewersSuperCollector]

To show how screwed up it all is Bobby Thompson was inducted into the Braves Wall four years before Hank Aaron. Thompson shouldn't even be on there.

[sveumrules]

Ben Sheets absolutely deserves a spot on the Walk of Fame. Best pitcher in franchise history, or at worst second best behind Higuera.

[MrTPlush]

The Atlanta Braves retire those numbers and remember those players because they are apart of that organizations history. They have zero connection to the Milwaukee Brewers organization. You would essentially be remembering players of a different organization.

[rickh150]

Jenkins deserves the walk of fame over Simmons and deserves to be the next member of the walk of fame, Simmons had a great career but wasn't great with the Brewers. Not sure why you would be upset over Simmons but then complain about Fingers as Fingers meant much more to the Brewers.

 

I'm really more baffled than anything.

 

Jenkins was a good, not great, player on bad and really bad teams. Way too many of his homers were when the Brewers were down by 6 in the 8th when the pitchers just didn't want to walk anybody. He struck out waaaay too many times with runners in scoring position, especially on third, in clutch situations.

 

I'm glad that you reminded me that Simmons had better stats with the Cards. That plays a role, no doubt. Longevity with the organization looks to be a key component with the Walk of Fame, it seems. It must be, considering...

Don Money, Gantner, Gorman > Simmons, Vuch, Sutton (his role was huge in 82, as well.... there is no 82 without him).

 

Also, Fingers meant a lot to the 81 and 82 teams, two playoff teams. Without him, there is no playoffs EITHER year, I'd argue. Yet, he is a relief pitcher first of all. He also spent most of his brilliant career elsewhere, winning championships with the A's. Credit him though, he did wonders in Milwaukee for a much shorter period of time. That is where it starts getting foggy and hazy for me...... How can Fingers be celebrated so much in Milwaukee, # retired and all that, while other key cogs here with impressive overall careers (HOF Don Sutton, Simmons, Vuch) are not even on the Brewers Walk of Fame. Has time forgotten how good these guys were?

 

Seems inconsistent.

[BuckyBrewer61]

The Atlanta Braves retire those numbers and remember those players because they are apart of that organizations history. They have zero connection to the Milwaukee Brewers organization. You would essentially be remembering players of a different organization.

 

Of course. But those players have zero connection to the city of Atlanta, with a huge connection to the city of Milwaukee and its fans. I'm arguing the city connection is more important than the franchise, and to me it's not close.

 

Should the LA Rams invite Marshall Faulk and Kurt Warner for a number retiring ceremony so they can get a big round of applause for a bunch of fans that never cheered for them? Bring a Vlad Guerrero to Washington where he never played? Retire Ray Allen's number as an Oklahoma City Thunder? All the same franchises.

 

EDIT: Also with this logic Hank Aaron's number should not be retired as a Brewer. He was just a hall of famer from another franchise who played out his career with the Brewers. Just like Trevor Hoffman.

[Baldkin]

Seems inconsistent.

 

It's the media, of course it's inconsistent.

 

Have you seen the Hall of Fame voting? Did Tim Raines suddenly get better after being retired for 14 years?

[Bikeage77]

A bit of a tangent - but I personally really wish Milwaukee would retire some old Milwaukee Braves numbers. At least Mathews and Spahn, who played a combined 1 year in Atlanta where their numbers are retired, and 25 years in Milwaukee.

 

Not sure if this is even allowed by MLB, but would those guys feel any sense of connection to Atlanta baseball? If we retired the number of a guy who appeared in less than 200 games here, they should retire those of true Milwaukee baseball legends. Maybe I'm just wishing our wall of retired numbers and pennants was a bit less sad...

 

Nothing sickened this old Milwaukee Brave fan more than to see photos of Warren Spahn and Eddie Mathews plastered on the wall at Turner Field. Spahn never wore an Atlanta uniform and Mathews did only briefly. Not to relive the whole horrendous stealing of the franchise, but stuff like this just pours salt in the wounds that never heal. A lot of old Milwaukee Braves fans had allegiances before the Braves arrived and got over their leaving, but for us baby boomers born between 1947 and 1956, the Braves were our first baseball love and Mathews our first hero. It still hurts.

 

By the way, the Burdette honor was long overdue.

 

I see the argument, but Atlanta should have retired Spahn and Matthews and I'm glad they did. Jackie Robinson never played in LA but his number was retired there, and he absolutely deserved that. I'm sure there are other similar cases, but that one stands out to be obvious.

[Oxy]

The Atlanta Braves retire those numbers and remember those players because they are apart of that organizations history. They have zero connection to the Milwaukee Brewers organization. You would essentially be remembering players of a different organization.

 

Of course. But those players have zero connection to the city of Atlanta, with a huge connection to the city of Milwaukee and its fans. I'm arguing the city connection is more important than the franchise, and to me it's not close.

 

Should the LA Rams invite Marshall Faulk and Kurt Warner for a number retiring ceremony so they can get a big round of applause for a bunch of fans that never cheered for them? Bring a Vlad Guerrero to Washington where he never played? Retire Ray Allen's number as an Oklahoma City Thunder? All the same franchises.

 

EDIT: Also with this logic Hank Aaron's number should not be retired as a Brewer. He was just a hall of famer from another franchise who played out his career with the Brewers. Just like Trevor Hoffman.

 

A-What?

[BuckyBrewer61]

 

EDIT: Also with this logic Hank Aaron's number should not be retired as a Brewer. He was just a hall of famer from another franchise who played out his career with the Brewers. Just like Trevor Hoffman.

 

A-What?

 

I'm not saying I believe that, I absolutely believe Aaron's number should be retired, just like I think Spahn's and Mathews' should.

 

Just arguing that if you adhere to the aforementioned logic of...

 

The Atlanta Braves retire those numbers and remember those players because they are apart of that organizations history. They have zero connection to the Milwaukee Brewers organization. You would essentially be remembering players of a different organization.

 

...then you'd be saying that Hank Aaron = Trevor Hoffman when it comes to connection to the Brewers organization. Hank hit .232 as a Brewer with 22 total home runs - are we remembering that? Obviously not, you can't ignore his connection to Milwaukee baseball on the whole, and that matters. A lot.

 

I don't blame or begrudge those organizations for staking claim to hall of fame players, it's their right. But the city of Milwaukee should be able to claim them as our own as well. I bet if you could ask the players who played and lived here for years, they'd say the same.

[TheEndless7]

I wonder if there is anything MLB wise that says players totally affiliated with an entire organization cannot have numbers required by another team?

 

I mean sure there's the 42 thing but could MLB have perhaps said 'Spahn and Matthews never played for your franchise in any way, shape or form, thus you cannot retire their number'.

 

The importance to the city is great and all, but I think most people would find it absurd if the Mets tried to retire Babe Ruth's number, or the Angels tried to retire Sandy Koufax's number.

 

Personally I would have no issue with Spahn or Matthews having their numbers retired. But there is a valid point to be made that they were never Milwaukee Brewers.

[The stache]

I've never looked at the wall roster before, but I just assumed Lew was already in there. Seemed like a no brainer to me.

[BuckyBrewer61]

The importance to the city is great and all, but I think most people would find it absurd if the Mets tried to retire Babe Ruth's number, or the Angels tried to retire Sandy Koufax's number.

 

Personally I would have no issue with Spahn or Matthews having their numbers retired. But there is a valid point to be made that they were never Milwaukee Brewers.

 

Those examples are a bit different circumstances as those are 2-team cities with split fan bases. But point taken. Milwaukee is a bit of a unique circumstance because one team left, then a new expansion team came. While it happens I don't think it's actually really all that common in sports off the top of my head.

 

Put it this way - are you ok with the Cleveland Browns retiring Jim Brown's number? He played for the Baltimore Ravens franchise, not the new expansion team in Cleveland. If Atlanta changed their name when they moved away, and then the Pilots became the Milwaukee Braves in 1970, then we could claim those guys? Just because of a the nickname?

 

Honestly, the more I think about it, I get that it'd be kinda weird. I just really wish we could acknowledge Milwaukee baseball legends with more than a small random wall at MP hardly anyone stops to look at. The average Brewers fan has no idea who Eddie Mathews is, and as a Milwaukee baseball fan that makes me sad.

[MrTPlush]

If Atlanta changed their name when they moved away, and then the Pilots became the Milwaukee Braves in 1970, then we could claim those guys? Just because of a the nickname?

 

It isn't a nickname though, it is the same franchise. It would be like stealing honestly. Why would one want to remember someone from a different franchise? Miller Park is not the Milwaukee Baseball Hall of Fame. It is for the Milwaukee Brewers and the people that played for it. Though they have on occassion worn Braves uniforms which is interesting.

[MadThinker88]

Put it this way - are you ok with the Cleveland Browns retiring Jim Brown's number? He played for the Baltimore Ravens franchise, not the new expansion team in Cleveland.

 

One major difference: As part of the settlement for the move to go forward, Art Modell had to leave behind the team name, color and all records. The Browns basically were in hibernation for 3 season and returned with a massive thud ever since 1999.

[jerichoholicninja]

Spahn and Matthews have no business having their numbers retired by the Brewers. I would even go as far as to say that Aaron shouldn't have his number retired by the Brewers but at least he played for the Brewers. Certainly honor those guys all you want in the park as they are very important parts of Milwaukee baseball history but in no way should the Brewers retire the numbers of guys who never played for them.

[BuckyBrewer61]

Spahn and Matthews have no business having their numbers retired by the Brewers. I would even go as far as to say that Aaron shouldn't have his number retired by the Brewers but at least he played for the Brewers. Certainly honor those guys all you want in the park as they are very important parts of Milwaukee baseball history but in no way should the Brewers retire the numbers of guys who never played for them.

 

The more I think of it, the more I'm coming around on your guys' point of view. I just would think if you were old enough to remember/love the Milwaukee Braves, it'd be pretty sad to not only see the team go but also largely the memory of those great players the city once loved.

 

Like as a Packers fan, if they moved away (obviously hypothetical), to then lose the memory of Starr, Nitchke, Favre, White, etc would be pretty sad. Bringing a new team in almost wipes those memories away further, as the new team can't really acknowledge them. Instead, they can only be commemorated in a city, and for a fan base, they never played for. To me, players and specific teams (rosters) belong to fan bases more than the franchise that employs them, but I get that strictly speaking the city and their new team can't otherwise claim them.

 

If anything, I guess I can understand a bit more how much it must have sucked to see the Braves leave.

[TheEndless7]

Spahn and Matthews have no business having their numbers retired by the Brewers. I would even go as far as to say that Aaron shouldn't have his number retired by the Brewers but at least he played for the Brewers. Certainly honor those guys all you want in the park as they are very important parts of Milwaukee baseball history but in no way should the Brewers retire the numbers of guys who never played for them.

 

This is pretty much my personal view on the matter. I don't care enough about it to fight it or anything if the Brewers were to do that. But logically, they never played for the Milwaukee Brewers. They were never part of this franchise.

 

The point about Aaron is interesting because it makes me wonder if, in five years, we'll be having 'Trevor Hoffman' night. I doubt it. The situations obviously aren't the same as Aaron played in Milwaukee but for a different franchise, but similar in their impact specifically on the Milwaukee Brewers. Arguably, Trevor Hoffman had more of an impact on the field for the Milwaukee Brewers than Hank Aaron.

 

As for people not knowing who Eddie Matthews is. Shrug. The man hasn't played baseball in half a century. There's nothing that says you have to know players who played ball fifty years ago to be a fan. I know there are areas of the park that talk about the Braves, and I think that's fine.

[Outlander]

There will likely be aTrevor Hoffman night or something similar after he gets inducted but that is a far cry from getting his number retired and a statue. Just getting in the HOF results in an automatic induction into the Brewers Wall of Honor.

[Bikeage77]

Hoffman was also an All Star closer for Milwaukee, and the Padres had wrote him off for being at the end of his career. He's more deserving than a lot of those guys on that wall, IMO