2017 Hall of Fame Inductees: Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Ivan Rodriguez

[ReverendBrewmeister]

Election results were posted this evening: http://m.mlb.com/news/article/213764086/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-election-results/

 

More coverage here: http://m.mlb.com/hof and http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/18504557/jeff-bagwell-tim-raines-ivan-pudge-rodriguez-elected-baseball-hall-fame

 

Bagwell got 86.2%; Raines got 86%; Rodriguez got 76%

 

Congratulations to the new inductees. Let the debates over omissions begin, including Hoffman and Guerrero narrowly missing the 75% threshold.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I can't believe Timmy Raines finally made it.

[JimH5]

I can't believe Timmy Raines finally made it.

 

Jonah Keri was a big proponent of Raines, and was actively campaigning for him.

 

I'm glad that Raines made it. Pudge and Bagwell are deserving, too. The steroid issue seems to be clarifying a little, with "whisper guys" getting through and "louder than whisper guys" making progress, but not enough to get to 75 percent.

 

Trevor Hoffman surprised me, getting so close, but that saves total is impressive.

[reillymcshane]

I can't believe Timmy Raines finally made it.

Really happy for Raines. A great player - even better in retrospect.

 

Pudge and Bagwell were great players as well. I'd have been fine with Hoffman and Vlad if they had made it too.

[FVBrewerFan]

Astros were my NL team growing up, great to see Bags get in.

[Invader3K]

Trevor Hoffman should have been a first ballot Hall of Famer. His career numbers should have made it a slam dunk. I'm OK with the others who got in, but "pledging" is stupid.

[sveumrules]

Three relievers:

 

1289 IP | 1251 K | 486 BB | 3.03 ERA | 132 ERA+

1089 IP | 1133 K | 307 BB | 2.87 ERA | 141 ERA+

903 IP | 1196 K | 300 BB | 2.31 ERA | 187 ERA+

 

One of these relievers got 74%, one got 34% & one got 10%. Do their career numbers warrant such a discrepancy in votes received?

[RobDeer 45]

Aren't Bagwell and Pudge widely known as steroid users? I could be wrong. I'm just wondering why they got in without much of a fuss.

[jerichoholicninja]

Aren't Bagwell and Pudge widely known as steroid users? I could be wrong. I'm just wondering why they got in without much of a fuss.

 

No evidence for Bagwell, but just look at him. I think I remember some rumblings about Pudge a few years ago. It's not surprising though that the voters pick and chose who they are outraged about when it comes to PED's.

[Outlander]

Three relievers:

 

1289 IP | 1251 K | 486 BB | 3.03 ERA | 132 ERA+

1089 IP | 1133 K | 307 BB | 2.87 ERA | 141 ERA+

903 IP | 1196 K | 300 BB | 2.31 ERA | 187 ERA+

 

One of these relievers got 74%, one got 34% & one got 10%. Do their career numbers warrant such a discrepancy in votes received?

Billy Wagner was definitely the most dominant of the bunch and was still real effective the year he retired. The difference is Hoffman kept on going and got his counting stat to 600.

[reillymcshane]

Aren't Bagwell and Pudge widely known as steroid users? I could be wrong. I'm just wondering why they got in without much of a fuss.

 

No evidence for Bagwell, but just look at him. I think I remember some rumblings about Pudge a few years ago. It's not surprising though that the voters pick and chose who they are outraged about when it comes to PED's.

Canseco said in his book he injected Pudge with PEDs. And there was the time he came to spring training 15-20lbs lighter - a time that coincided with tougher PED testing.

 

All speculation and rumors, however. He never tested for anything.

[Devinep]

Players shouldn't lose votes from the Chris Russo's of the world with votes who think something like "he was big" or Jose Canseco said so. Some with not evidence like Manny, Bonds, Clemens, it will be sad when they are giving their HOF speeches. Especially when deserving guys like Martinez and Mussina aren't in yet

[Baldkin]

Vlad triples Larry Walker's vote count. Sigh.

The idea that Trevor Hoffman was a better pitcher than Mike Mussina or Curt Schilling is hilarious as well.

[MKE81]

Vlad triples Larry Walker's vote count. Sigh.

The idea that Trevor Hoffman was a better pitcher than Mike Mussina or Curt Schilling is hilarious as well.

Considering Hoffman is a closer and the others are starters why even compare them? However, Hoffman has a significantly better ERA than Mussina as well as a better WHIP, H9, K9 and both had great control. Hoffman is 2nd on saves list and next closest is 123 behind him. Hoffman +2 in AS nods, +1 in CY runner-up (twice), 2x finished top 10 in MVP to Mussina 0. Mussina had an ERA north of 4 in 4 of his final 9yrs and never made one AS game over that span. Mussina won numerous GG but closers will never win those anyway

[StearnsFTW]

Cheater/cokehead/cheater

 

Guess that's pretty much going to be the norm now though. Plenty of both category in the HOF.

[RobDeer 45]

Aren't Bagwell and Pudge widely known as steroid users? I could be wrong. I'm just wondering why they got in without much of a fuss.

 

No evidence for Bagwell, but just look at him. I think I remember some rumblings about Pudge a few years ago. It's not surprising though that the voters pick and chose who they are outraged about when it comes to PED's.

Canseco said in his book he injected Pudge with PEDs. And there was the time he came to spring training 15-20lbs lighter - a time that coincided with tougher PED testing.

 

All speculation and rumors, however. He never tested for anything.

 

I remember when he lost all that weight coming in to spring that year. Hilarious. Said he wanted to slim down so he was more mobile and easier on his body. I don't know if it was that year, but I'm wondering if that's when his numbers also started to fall off significantly. It might have been the year before that. I've heard more rumblings of Pudge taking steroids than Bagwell but that doesn't mean anything. I'm on the record that these guys should all get in, they were the best in their time period. Especially the guys that were taking stuff when it wasn't against the rules. Where I struggle is what do you do with guys like Braun or ARod? They cheated and got caught when it was against the rules. We'll never know how long they cheated, so it's hard to say they would have been just as good without it.

[jerichoholicninja]

I remember when he lost all that weight coming in to spring that year. Hilarious. Said he wanted to slim down so he was more mobile and easier on his body. I don't know if it was that year, but I'm wondering if that's when his numbers also started to fall off significantly. It might have been the year before that. I've heard more rumblings of Pudge taking steroids than Bagwell but that doesn't mean anything. I'm on the record that these guys should all get in, they were the best in their time period. Especially the guys that were taking stuff when it wasn't against the rules. Where I struggle is what do you do with guys like Braun or ARod? They cheated and got caught when it was against the rules. We'll never know how long they cheated, so it's hard to say they would have been just as good without it.

 

I don't think corking a bat or putting foreign substances on the ball gets you banned from the hall of fame so until the rules say so PED's should be treated the same way.

[StearnsFTW]

I don't really have a problem with it either I guess. What else can you do?

 

The guys it really hurts are the ones that didn't cheat. But it's impossible to figure out who those guys were, if there even were any.

[Baldkin]

Vlad triples Larry Walker's vote count. Sigh.

The idea that Trevor Hoffman was a better pitcher than Mike Mussina or Curt Schilling is hilarious as well.

Considering Hoffman is a closer and the others are starters why even compare them? However, Hoffman has a significantly better ERA than Mussina as well as a better WHIP, H9, K9 and both had great control. Hoffman is 2nd on saves list and next closest is 123 behind him. Hoffman +2 in AS nods, +1 in CY runner-up (twice), 2x finished top 10 in MVP to Mussina 0. Mussina had an ERA north of 4 in 4 of his final 9yrs and never made one AS game over that span. Mussina won numerous GG but closers will never win those anyway

 

Because they were better pitchers than Hoffman?

If you can't see that there's no point in furthering this conversation.

 

Value matters. Hoffman wasn't as valuable. Saves are stupid.

Mussina literally pitched 3x as many innings as Hoffman. Letting closers in because they put up good stats is like letting in a guy like Kevin Mench because he mashed lefties for 10 years.

 

Trevor Hoffman's similar players:

Lee Smith (896)

Mariano Rivera (883)

Francisco Rodriguez (871)

Jeff Reardon (852)

Joe Nathan (847)

Roberto Hernandez (837)

Bruce Sutter (834) *

Doug Jones (825)

John Franco (822)

Billy Wagner (807)

 

Mussina's:

Andy Pettitte (912)

Bartolo Colon (876)

CC Sabathia (874)

Juan Marichal (866) *

David Wells (863)

Curt Schilling (860)

Tim Hudson (857)

Jim Palmer (855) *

Carl Hubbell (855) *

Kevin Brown (844)

* - Signifies Hall of Famer

 

ERA is a flawed statistic, it doesn't evaluate players who play in hitters parks in hitters divisions (like Mussina) the same way it does players who play in pitchers parks in pitchers divisions (like Hoffman)

Mussina's ERA+ was 123. Hoffman's was 141.

Does a 13% difference in ERA negate 2,400 more innings?

[Devinep]

It's interesting to discuss who was better, but to me Mussina and Hoffman are both very deserving, especially the gross allowances into the hall like Bill Mazzeroski and whoever was the. Black Sox scandal catcher, who got in for apparently being an honest guy on the team

[topper09er]

 

ERA is a flawed statistic, it doesn't evaluate players who play in hitters parks in hitters divisions (like Mussina) the same way it does players who play in pitchers parks in pitchers divisions (like Hoffman)

Mussina's ERA+ was 123. Hoffman's was 141.

Does a 13% difference in ERA negate 2,400 more innings?

 

Even ERA+ is a flawed statistic because it treats all pitchers equally. Relievers have a significant advantage over starters for several reasons

1) only pitching 1 inning per game, never/rarely have to deal with fatigue.

2) never/rarely do hitters get to see them twice in a game

3) in theory they only have to face the the best hitters on the other team 1/3 of the time.

 

So really, there should be an ERA+ for starters and a different one for relievers. I would imagine if that were the case Hoffman actually would not look like an all-time great reliever.

[gregmag]

I've been in a fog and just saw this. I'm very happy about Raines. This is a good group.

 

The PED issue . . . I don't have a confident answer. Ignoring it seems like the most straightforward option. Bonds' home runs counted.

[JohnBriggs12]

Hard to argue when Jose Canseco mentions that his identical twin brother Ozzie used PED's as much as he did, but that didn't make him a success.

[CheezWizHed]

Hard to argue when Jose Canseco mentions that his identical twin brother Ozzie used PED's as much as he did, but that didn't make him a success.

 

That is assuming they both started at the same talent level. What if it helped both of them equally, but Ozzie still stunk? PEDs wouldn't make me an MLB player.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Hard to argue when Jose Canseco mentions that his identical twin brother Ozzie used PED's as much as he did, but that didn't make him a success.

 

That is assuming they both started at the same talent level. What if it helped both of them equally, but Ozzie still stunk? PEDs wouldn't make me an MLB player.

 

 

Peds don't even make me a decent power hitter in softball at this point.