How do we add a FRANCHISE HITTER and/or AN ACE LEVEL PITCHER to our organization?

[reillymcshane]

In reality, the best way for Milwaukee to develop a superstar type player is to draft well (no matter the draft pick), and make astute trades.

 

I'll use the Indians as a team we could model ourselves after:

 

Lindor was the 8th pick in the draft. Kipnis was a 2nd round pick. Kluber a 4th round pick by SD. Josh Tomlin a 19th round pick. Kluber, Carrasco, Bauer, Santana (I can even add Michael Brantley, who was great until his injury) - all trades when they were minor leaguers in other systems. Ramirez, Salazar - amateur free agents.

 

With the exception of Lindor, no one was a particualrly heralded player. The team drafted guys, kept adding talent to the minor league system via trades and amateur signings - and thus they have a team that almost won the World Series. They have a younger superstar in Lindor. An ace in Kluber. They aren't loaded with onerous free agent contracts. They use free agency - but as a way to supplement their core.

 

Cleveland succeeded by targeting talent in the amateur and minor leagues - and adding them to their system. It's what we are doing - and what we should keep doing.

 

Otherwise, you really only have two ways to add a guy who is - at this moment - an franchise hitter or ace level pitcher - trade for one, or sign one as a free agent. We saw what Sale cost. It's a very high price.

 

No one ever drafts a franchise hitter or ace level pitcher. Those elite players take time to reach that level. The higher you pick in the draft certainly helps you get players that have that potential - but there's no guarantee.

 

To me, it's adding talent - and lots of it. Players flame out a lot in baseball, especially pitchers. You have to expect that. But the more guys you have, the better chance for players to blossom into something special - sometimes even an all-star type player.

[NievesNoNO]

It's possible we already have one in waiting. I'll echo others, but just keep accumulating talent regardless of prospect ranking. Teams have proven that a team deep with very good players and not necessarily great players can win as well.

 

And while I'd love another Braun or Fielder, or Trout, Kershaw, McCutchen or a Harper. None of those players have a championship.

 

If they can accumulate a deep enough farm system while the MLB team improves they can deal from that surplus when the time is right if they need to add an ace or elite bat.

[Ennder]

You don't need either of these to win the World Series. A team of solid above average players is more likely to do it than a few stars since injuries don't set you back as much.

 

But it highly comes down to luck to be honest. Trout wasn't a top 10 pick and he has been by far the best player in baseball for years now.

[danzig6767]

You don't need either of these to win the World Series. A team of solid above average players is more likely to do it than a few stars since injuries don't set you back as much.

 

But it highly comes down to luck to be honest. Trout wasn't a top 10 pick and he has been by far the best player in baseball for years now.

I was also going to mention that luck needs to be factored into smart overall team building.

 

Take the Cubs for example. Theo in general did a fabulous job building up the Cubs, but even he would admit that when he acquired say Arrieta and Hendricks, he wasn't envisioning either becoming CY Young caliber starting pitchers, much less both of them. Yet both did.

 

So Stearns simply needs to keep trying to add younger talent in every avenue possible and then hope a couple of those players hit big, along with multiple others becoming solid to above average players.

 

The league is full of upper tier and next tier players who weren't top 5 picks. Also players who didn't become really good until they were picked up or acquired by another team for a variety of reasons. Look at playoff darling Andrew Miller. He was a 6th overall bust and nearly out of baseball until Boston switched him to the bullpen in year six of his career. Jose Bautista and Encarnacion for Toronto were cast off by their original teams and then they stole Donaldson.

 

Building a quality organization overall and big league roster takes more skill than luck, but catching a few breaks with a player or two/three vastly exceeding your expectations sure does help. Just keep mining for talent.

[endaround]

Given the Brewers had both a a FRANCHISE HITTER in Braun and an ACE LEVEL PITCHER in Guerrera (and Davies was close to being another) last year its almost like that isn't enough...

 

And that Davies hasn't been mentioned at all in this thread is strange.

[A Swing and A Drive]

Given the Brewers had both a a FRANCHISE HITTER in Braun and an ACE LEVEL PITCHER in Guerrera (and Davies was close to being another) last year its almost like that isn't enough...

 

And that Davies hasn't been mentioned at all in this thread is strange.

 

 

I assume you are joking.

 

Despite both putting up very good numbers last year, neither Junior Guerra or Kyle Davies is an ACE at the Major League Level.

 

Neither player would even be considered for the Cubs rotation.

 

For example, Jason Hammell was 15-10 with a 3.83 ERA over 166 IP and he was left off the Cubs playoff roster all together.

[jerichoholicninja]

Luck. Nothing more, nothing less.

[FVBrewerFan]

Luck. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

It's not just luck. If you have a crappy system, luck won't do you any good. But if they continue to add talent to the system, yes it increase the odds you'll hit on greatness in a player or two.

 

You know, there is one more way to add that franchise type player- but nobody is going to like it. If Villar has another great year, and/or Arcia shows he can hit MLB pitching you can trade one of them (or even package someone else to sweeten the deal) for a TOR starter or big time bat. Someone at the AA/AAA level.

 

Problem with that, there's no guarantee that player will reach his ceiling. It is a risk. But there could be a team out there that would love a really good controllable SS, and willing to give up a big bat or #1 potential SP.

 

I AM NOT advocating the Brewers do this, simply saying that could be a way to get that type of franchise player.

[A Swing and A Drive]

Trading Villar at peak value would be very smart. Targeting a pitching prospect with #1 starter potential would be huge, especially since we didn't trade for one with Lucroy (Ortiz's ceiling is more mid-rotation) and we won't be getting one for Braun. Great idea.

 

Arcia's ceiling is that of Alcides Escobar, not Francisco Lindor. So Brewers should be open to trading him at peak value as well.

[pacopete4]

Trading Villar at peak value would be very smart. Targeting a pitching prospect with #1 starter potential would be huge, especially since we didn't trade for one with Lucroy (Ortiz's ceiling is more mid-rotation) and we won't be getting one for Braun. Great idea.

 

Arcia's ceiling is that of Alcides Escobar, not Francisco Lindor. So Brewers should be open to trading him at peak value as well.

 

 

Must be nice to have the foresight that you have and the ability to predict how every player is going to pan out.

[A Swing and A Drive]

Well everyone on Brewerfan ASSUMED Mat Gamel was going to be the next Ryan Braun, although he never had that kind of talent.

 

That's why teams have scouts.

 

There is not a scout in America that will tell you that Kyle Davies has the talent to be an ACE at the Major League Level, I'm sorry to say.

[And That]

Well everyone on Brewerfan ASSUMED Mat Gamel was going to be the next Ryan Braun

I don't believe that is even in the ballpark of being accurate.

[Fear The Chorizo]

The best way for a small market team that isn't picking at the top of every draft to do this is to draft high school talent - yes, collegiate impact bats and arms are more MLB-ready and tend to carry less risk of flaming out once they turn pro, but having a solid scouting staff that can identify high schoolers in the top 100 picks who would be top 5 selections should they go to college and get drafted 3 years later is the way to approach a draft, IMO.

 

Trades can bring TOR or Franchise hitters to the big league club, but for a small market team it takes a farm system loaded with talent AND depth to make that a good option.

 

Free agency for this caliber of player should be avoided by small market clubs, since most of the time you're paying top dollar for a player that will age beyond his prime during that contract.

[MadThinker88]

ReillyMcShane brought up the Indians earlier in this thread but he left off a small tidbit that the Brewers might be able to follow.

 

A few years ago, the Tribe really liked the depth of its system and it had a middle area pick in the 1st round. Many Tribe fans/ posters/ website guys were curious which route the team would take in the draft. One name/ pitcher was out there but everyone knew he just had TJ surgery and the Tribe often avoided undue risks. To everyone's surprise (& delight), the Tribe spent its 1st pick on Brady Aiken.

 

Now, I'm not saying Aiken will definitely make it all the wall back to the player that warranted him as the #1 overall pick the year prior but it is possible.

 

The Brewers system is VASTLY IMPROVED over where it had been a few years ago. As a result they might be able to take a little more risk here and there to try and draft that eye popping talent they might otherwise pass over (due to injuries/ attitude/ other Red Flags).

[MadThinker88]

ReillyMcShane brought up the Indians earlier in this thread but he left off a small tidbit that the Brewers might be able to follow.

 

A few years ago, the Tribe really liked the depth of its system and it had a middle area pick in the 1st round. Many Tribe fans/ posters/ website guys were curious which route the team would take in the draft. One name/ pitcher was out there but everyone knew he just had TJ surgery and the Tribe often avoided undue risks. To everyone's surprise (& delight), the Tribe spent its 1st pick on Brady Aiken.

 

Now, I'm not saying Aiken will definitely make it all the wall back to the player that warranted him as the #1 overall pick the year prior but it is possible.

 

The Brewers system is VASTLY IMPROVED over where it had been a few years ago. As a result they might be able to take a little more risk here and there to try and draft that eye popping talent they might otherwise pass over (due to injuries/ attitude/ other Red Flags).

[MrTPlush]

Well everyone on Brewerfan ASSUMED Mat Gamel was going to be the next Ryan Braun, although he never had that kind of talent.

 

That's why teams have scouts.

 

There is not a scout in America that will tell you that Kyle Davies has the talent to be an ACE at the Major League Level, I'm sorry to say.

 

Good thing scouts aren't always right. Actually they probably are more wrong than right.

[Point Beer Is Best]

It all comes down to the draft (and International free agency, to a lesser degree). Then you rely on luck on how those picks turn out. You can improve your "luck" by allocating sufficient resources (talent & $$) to your scouting & development areas and giving them every resource they need to succeed (a relative term in those professions). It's very difficult to acquire a franchise hitter/pitcher in a trade, unless you have plenty of the other to offer in exchange. And how do you get to that point? Again, it goes back to the draft.

[MrTPlush]

Someone hit on it, but people need to remember there is a pretty good chance one of these said players probably already exists within the system. We have elite prospects and a bunch of them could end up being franchise players. Not to mention due to the incredible depth the odds we have a Jonathan Lucroy hiding in there somewhere or maybe multiple guys who will exceed what we think they could be. Just as players underachieve many surprise. When it comes to prospects it never will look like we have one because they have so many apparent flaws(even those in the Top 10) we are afraid to say they can reach their ceiling. There are great players in our system right now. Yes ones that can put up 5 WAR years...wait and see.

[homer]

Davies could easily be an ace. The guy had a great season at age 23.

[MrTPlush]

Davies could easily be an ace. The guy had a great season at age 23.

 

Easily? I mean I guess in the sense of he has a 50/50 shot like any player. Nothing really hints at him being an ace though. Lot of room for improvement though...could be a lower-ish 3 ERA guy. What are you hoping for the next Kyle Hendricks? I guess it is possible.

[A Swing and A Drive]

I guess my definition of an ACE starting pitcher is different than most Brewer fans.

 

Zach Davies doesn't not have the raw "stuff" or talent to be a MLB ace. Pure and simple.

[homer]

Davies could easily be an ace. The guy had a great season at age 23.

 

Easily? I mean I guess in the sense of he has a 50/50 shot like any player. Nothing really hints at him being an ace though. Lot of room for improvement though...could be a lower-ish 3 ERA guy. What are you hoping for the next Kyle Hendricks? I guess it is possible.

 

Easily doesn't imply that it's "easy" or a given. Just that it shouldn't surprise (and not every player that gets to the majors has a 50/50 shot at being an ace). He showed plenty of reasons that he could turn into something special especially for a 23 year old. He could just as "easily" flame out. Although it bears mentioning that his top two age 23 comps are Dennis Martinez and Justin Verlander.

[homer]

I guess my definition of an ACE starting pitcher is different than most Brewer fans.

 

Zach Davies doesn't not have the raw "stuff" or talent to be a MLB ace. Pure and simple.

 

How is his "stuff" different from Kyle Hendricks?

[And That]

Zach Davies doesn't not have the raw "stuff" or talent to be a MLB ace. Pure and simple.

Does being an ace require both stuff and talent, or can you get away with having one and not the other?

[gregmag]

I guess my definition of an ACE starting pitcher is different than most Brewer fans.

 

Zach Davies doesn't not have the raw "stuff" or talent to be a MLB ace. Pure and simple.

You seem absolutely certain that all your views are right, so why did you start a thread built on questions? It sounds like you already have all the answers.