Counsell signs a 3-year contract extension through 2020

[patrickgpe]

press conference at noon

 

http://m.brewers.mlb.com/news/article/208632352/craig-counsell-likely-to-sign-extension-today/

[TURBO]

Not sure why we need to extend him, are there other teams that might sneak in and take him from us?

[patrickgpe]

no but you don't want a lame duck manager.

[monty57]

Good. I think he's a good fit for the team and what they're trying to accomplish.

[MillerParkSouth]

No brainer move, glad they're getting it taken care of right away.

[logan82]

Not sure why they waited this long.

[patrickgpe]

Good. I think he's a good fit for the team and what they're trying to accomplish.

i do not agree, his mentality managing is to play to win instead of developing talent. For example why was kirk nieuwenhuis playing every day while Domingo Santana riding the bench, one is not in the long term future of the team and one is a big maybe. I understand you need to play to win, but when a team in rebuilding you need a manager to embrace this while still trying to win.

[sveumrules]

Of course there is no way to know for certain, but I would guess that playing time/lineup construction/preferred reliever usage is decided upon collaboratively between Counsell & Stearns/the front office. Specific decisions may have more input from one side or the other, but I doubt there are many situations where Counsell is going rogue in defiance of things that have been discussed with Stearns & company.

[monty57]

Good. I think he's a good fit for the team and what they're trying to accomplish.

i do not agree, his mentality managing is to play to win instead of developing talent. For example why was kirk nieuwenhuis playing every day while Domingo Santana riding the bench, one is not in the long term future of the team and one is a big maybe. I understand you need to play to win, but when a team in rebuilding you need a manager to embrace this while still trying to win.

 

The GM and owner need to worry about the future of the franchise. The manager needs to worry about winning with what he's given.

 

I know this is a very limited experience, but I watched Santana when he was on rehab in Beloit, and he looked like he could use a bit of an attitude adjustment. Sitting a young, "entitled" player on the bench can be just as important to his development as having him on the field.

[patrickgpe]

The GM and owner need to worry about the future of the franchise. The manager needs to worry about winning with what he's given.

 

the two go hand in hand. if Stearns acquires a young player and he rides the bench that is not worrying about the future of the franchise. That being said, Stearns is the one that gave Counsell that toy to play with, so I can see how Counsell will want to put his best lineup out there daily because losing every day sucks.

 

That being said if nieuwenhuis was a 260 hitter and not a 209 hitter, its easier to justify him playing every day over a younger player. but he wasn't that good. This was my point.

[reillymcshane]

Counsell gets a new 3-year deal.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/11/brewers-craig-counsell-extension-manager.html

[1992casey]

Getting beyond the thing about player usage, here's a Stearns quote from the article reilly posted.

 

There’s the in-game part of [managing], which gets the most attention, because that’s the part that is what we all see and what Craig has to answer about. An even bigger part of it is what goes on behind closed doors, when he’s managing the clubhouse, managing different personalities. This is a big family thrown together for eight months out of the year, and Craig and the coaches have the responsibility of keeping that family together. That’s not an easy job.

[1992casey]

Here's the McCalvy article:

 

Brewers, Counsell agree on 3-year extension

[Jenkins5]

Obviously you haven't spent much time coaching if you think you should just role out red carpet for every young player who comes up despite work ethic or anything else. There was mostly likely a clear reason why Santana was on bench for Kirk. Kirk is an extremely hard working, smart, competitive player who leads like a vet. His results may not have been outstanding but if you are trying to build a winning culture built around hustling, work ethic, competitive fire, and attitude....you play those guys until the younger guys buy in and start to grow into that mold.

 

As a high school coach, at the start of the season, you usually fill your starting line up with 1st, returning starters 2nd seniors who put in the time & bought in, 3rd hardest working juniors who bought in. You do this knowing that they may not be most talented and many likely will lose starting jobs as the younger & more talented athletes begin to step up, buy in, and force way into line up.... The moment you just give away starting spots to most talented who haven't earned it though work ethic, attitude, and performance; is the moment you just lost your team, program, and future success. All it does is tell everyone that you could care less about work ethic, attitude, commitment, or anything else. All you care about is natural talent. Santana will grow more by earning his way to being an everyday player & competing for it than just being told do whatever, act however, you are the man regardless..... That's not developing.

 

Not saying that Santana is a bad attitude guy or doesn't work hard, just that there is a clear reason CC plays him under others. Also winning & developing go hand & hand. It's about culture. You are developing a winning culture & like the Cardinals, players develop better when they are in a culture like that. So I strongly disagree that CC isn't right for this team. He just understands how to build a team & culture correctly. He gets more out of players & wins more than expected because of that.

[djoctagone]

For example why was kirk nieuwenhuis playing every day while Domingo Santana riding the bench, one is not in the long term future of the team and one is a big maybe.

once september rolled around, nieuwenhuis' playing time dropped (and this was prior to his injury). i truly believe that the brewers were auditioning him to clubs with postseason hopes, and this was more stearns than counsell.

[patrickgpe]

dont get me wrong, this is really my only criticism of CC and i am happy he will be leading the rebuild for the foreseeable future.

[MadScientist]

Perhaps the extended playing time was to evaluate Nieuwenhuis to determine his role going forward. They still have to put together a functional roster for next year, and they probably don't want to start service time on the prospects before they have to, so knowing what KN is suitable for was important. Given how he hit last year, it's hard to say that playing him was an attempt to win more games.

[Baldkin]

Obviously you haven't spent much time coaching if you think you should just role out red carpet for every young player who comes up despite work ethic or anything else. There was mostly likely a clear reason why Santana was on bench for Kirk. Kirk is an extremely hard working, smart, competitive player who leads like a vet. His results may not have been outstanding but if you are trying to build a winning culture built around hustling, work ethic, competitive fire, and attitude....you play those guys until the younger guys buy in and start to grow into that mold.

 

I'm curious as to how you know this?

 

To me, he looks like a guy who can't stay out of the bars on the road and as a result completely lost his ability to hit in road ballparks.

I don't have any actual facts to back that up.

[jerichoholicninja]

Manager contracts aren't worth the paper they're written on. The whole "lame duck" thing is just made up by agents to get their client more money. If Stearns wants to can him he's going to do it whether he's in his last year of a contract or has 3 years left.

[patrickgpe]

yes but its gives Counsell financial stability and creates the illusion to the players that Counsell isn't going anywhere. Imagine if the brewers get off to a slow start and players know that Counsell is at the end of his deal and is likely to not come back next year, there would be chaos in the locker room.

[trwi7]

For example why was kirk nieuwenhuis playing every day while Domingo Santana riding the bench, one is not in the long term future of the team and one is a big maybe.

once september rolled around, nieuwenhuis' playing time dropped (and this was prior to his injury). i truly believe that the brewers were auditioning him to clubs with postseason hopes, and this was more stearns than counsell.

 

No and maybe we can finally put this to bed.

 

Sparky: I know over the course of in basketball and in baseball I've heard of numerous scenarios where GM's have highly suggested a lineup to a skipper or highly suggested a starting lineup to a coach in basketball, who they wanted out there to be played. How much was David Stearns and the front office involved in lineups throughout the course of the year?

 

Counsell: Well, I mean, I really view this as a collaborative thing, so the same way you know the front office with David will be involved in lineup stuff is how I'll be involved in personnel stuff. We're trying to get it right and we're trying to do better and we're trying to you know move it forward and we're trying to have better ideas. So the suggestion of lines, what to cross, what not to cross, you try to wipe those out. That's how you get better faster, I think, just kind of wiping out hey this is my turf, this is your turf. You know it's our turf and let's move it forward.

 

Ramie: Craig one criticism last year of you and I'm not going to be one of those media guys that hides behind it was a statement that I threw out there was that late in the season when it looked like the playoffs weren't a realistic expectation for the Brewers and Brewers fans, it still seemed like some of the lineups that were put out there were not put out with some of the young guys and the eye towards the future and finding out what you had in the coming years. What was the thought process behind some of those lineups and still playing some of those veteran players that probably won't be around when you guys are vying for a playoff and hopefully more?

 

Counsell: Well I actually don't think we had any veteran players so I must be mistaken for who they were. I mean, I think, look, we're always trying to there's always going to be a balance of look, you're playing the guy that has a chance to succeed tonight. You're protecting the young and putting him in spots to succeed umm, based on matchups and things like that. So, and also you're playing the guys that are performing, which still has to matter, has to matter in the clubhouse that guys that are playing well are playing. So there's always going to be a balance with that stuff and umm, I do think we will always have the mindset of we will try to win tonight's game. I think that plays and that always has to play and that always has to be the mindset. Your team can never lose that mindset.

 

http://media.1057fmthefan.com/a/117409012/11-11-16-craig-counsel-joins-the-wendy-s-big-show.htm

 

Just a couple of garbage answers from Counsell. Young players need to play. They're not going to figure anything out by sitting on the bench. They need to actually experience tough pitching and then make adjustments to it.

 

And all the talk about playing well. That's a bunch of garbage too since Nieuwenhuis wasn't good in August yet started most of the month and he continued to get most of the starts after Santana was activated off the DL on 8/19 until he got hurt and was out for the season. The only reason Santana wasn't benched for Nieuwenhuis last year was because Nieuwenhuis got hurt.

 

Don't buy that crap about Stearns showcasing Nieuwenhuis for an August trade either. Every team in the league knows he's a backup outfielder, so taking away playing time from a young player for any marginal value you might get in a trade for Nieuwenhuis would be beyond stupid and I would hope Stearns knows that.

[Thurston Fluff]

yes but its gives Counsell financial stability and creates the illusion to the players that Counsell isn't going anywhere. Imagine if the brewers get off to a slow start and players know that Counsell is at the end of his deal and is likely to not come back next year, there would be chaos in the locker room.

 

I know this is the standard line but I have always questioned how valid it is to think full grown men need a manager with multiple years on his contract to listen to him. The players also know that along with their performance attitude plays into how much money they make and how long they got to play. Being labeled as a clubhouse cancer effect their future earnings.

[monty57]

Just a couple of garbage answers from Counsell. Young players need to play. They're not going to figure anything out by sitting on the bench. They need to actually experience tough pitching and then make adjustments to it.

 

I alluded to this earlier, but young players can learn that they're not entitled to anything, and they have to earn playing time.

 

I went to the Timber Rattler games when they played in Beloit with Santana on rehab assignment. He dogged everything. Yes, he was playing in A ball, but I lost a lot of respect for him. He is a talented player, but if he's going to do things like getting picked off for a double play on a line-out because he's jogging back to the base, or not giving full effort on defense, then he's going to find himself on the bench.

[MrTPlush]

yes but its gives Counsell financial stability and creates the illusion to the players that Counsell isn't going anywhere

 

These are adults not five year olds. I don't think you are going to trick them.

[FVBrewerFan]

None of us knows why Nieuwenhuis got so much playing time. I have my own theory, but that doesn't make mine or anyone else's absolutely right or wrong. That interview with CC above does not address it either, other than the general answers Managers and GMs always give.

 

Regardless, how Nieuwenhuis was used has so little to do with whether CC is and will be a good Manager for this team. Stearns knows way more about what happens behind closed doors than any of us do, so I'll defer to his judgment on this.

 

With that said, in general, I really see no point in extending a Manager early. But if that's what they decided, fine, I'm not upset by it either. A case could be made that CC needs to perform to get a new contract, and that's actually a good example to show the young players.