Giants fire 1B and 3B coaches...

[TURBO]

So it CAN be done after all...

 

I thought there must be some unwritten rule against firing 3B coaches since Ed Sedar continues to be employed in the field.

[patrickgpe]

and yet the bullpen coach keeps his job?

[monty57]

It's funny. As I watch playoff baseball and see a throw to the plate from the OF, I just expect that there will be a runner halfway between third and home. Then I see the runner safely standing on third base and remember that not every team employs Ed Seder.

[brwrsfan]

It's funny. As I watch playoff baseball and see a throw to the plate from the OF, I just expect that there will be a runner halfway between third and home. Then I see the runner safely standing on third base and remember that not every team employs Ed Seder.

 

It happened last night in the Dodgers/Nats game. Werth was out at the plate by at least 30 feet. He was one step around third when the relay man got the ball.

[monty57]

Yeah, that was bad.

[Thurston Fluff]

If all being a third base coach consisted of was whether to send a player or not Cedar wouldn't have survived multiple managers and GM's. Which means it might be time to reconsider how we evaluate that position.

[jerichoholicninja]

If all being a third base coach consisted of was whether to send a player or not Cedar wouldn't have survived multiple managers and GM's. Which means it might be time to reconsider how we evaluate that position.

 

Being a 3rd base coach, yes, that's all they do. Being a coach in general, he has other responsibilities. He doesn't have to be canned to not coach 3rd anymore.

[Thurston Fluff]

If all being a third base coach consisted of was whether to send a player or not Cedar wouldn't have survived multiple managers and GM's. Which means it might be time to reconsider how we evaluate that position.

 

Being a 3rd base coach, yes, that's all they do. Being a coach in general, he has other responsibilities. He doesn't have to be canned to not coach 3rd anymore.

 

Which coach do you think needs to be removed to make room for him to take over? If you don't plan on firing one of them then which coach do you think would be better at third to make the switch? If there was a single team anywhere ever that fans thought the third base coach did a good job of sending players I'd be more concerned about how good or bad ours is.

[1992casey]

I'd be satisfied if the Brewers flip-flopped Subero and Sedar between first and third.

[Thurston Fluff]

I'd be satisfied if the Brewers flip-flopped Subero and Sedar between first and third.

 

If that happens the odds we are having the same conversation about Subero a year from now is probably 99%. The only way to avoid it is to have such a conservative approach that no runner ever gets thrown out. While that might make the third base coach look good I doubt it produces more runs. I agree that seeing someone thrown out by ten steps looks bad. It is bad. But I have also seen plenty of times when a runner should be thrown out but the throw is so off target he's safe. I think at times the ones that look bad are times when the coach/runner knows the person throwing the ball is not very accurate. It can look bad if he does get a good throw off but the odds are he won't. The new management seems to know what it's doing and have far more knowledge of the situation than I do so I'll just assume Cedar really isn't the worst third base coach of all time.

[MrTPlush]

No Ed Sedar is bad...really bad. Compare Sedar to the other teams 3B coach we see on a daily basis. I can't recall the last time I saw us throw out a guy by half a baseline. However Sedar does it on a weekly basis(on average...maybe less). I actually like Ed Sedar's/Brewers aggressive approach. However sometimes you know Sedar is going to send a guy and he is going to be out even before the player rounds third. It would take a throw to the backstop to be safe. I also think he is much too aggressive with one out. If there is one or no one outs you better be confident your guy can make it home. Too many times we send guys who are easily out or it is bang bang. In my opinion that isn't acceptable unless there are two outs.

 

Too many boneheaded decisions and out of a 3B coach it is not acceptable.

[Thurston Fluff]

No Ed Sedar is bad...really bad. Compare Sedar to the other teams 3B coach we see on a daily basis. I can't recall the last time I saw us throw out a guy by half a baseline. However Sedar does it on a weekly basis(on average...maybe less). I actually like Ed Sedar's/Brewers aggressive approach. However sometimes you know Sedar is going to send a guy and he is going to be out even before the player rounds third. It would take a throw to the backstop to be safe. I also think he is much too aggressive with one out. If there is one or no one outs you better be confident your guy can make it home. Too many times we send guys who are easily out or it is bang bang. In my opinion that isn't acceptable unless there are two outs.

 

Too many boneheaded decisions and out of a 3B coach it is not acceptable.

 

Selective memory is not the same as reality. Look a few post up and you will see this "It happened last night in the Dodgers/Nats game. Werth was out at the plate by at least 30 feet. He was one step around third when the relay man got the ball." Dale Sveum got the moniker send um Sveum in Boston. Those are just two examples I came up with in 2 seconds. I am willing to bet if we actually did a search of comments from other teams we'd find virtually every team's fans have the exact same belief their third base coach is the worst ever. It really should just be part of the job description.

[nate82]

I think baseball prospectus and ESPN had an article on this and they may have been the same article but the success rate should be something around 75%. If you have a success rate of anything higher than 80% the 3B coach was being to conservative and if below 70% to aggressive. I believe the article pointed out that 3B coaches should just be a windmill and send everyone as their success would be at or around the 75% success rate then. At the end of the year 3B coaches were leaving about 3 or 4 runs on the table with the way they are currently sending players for the year.

 

I am not sure on what Sedar's success rate was for this year but I am going to guess and it would be around the 70% mark.

[Baldkin]

The brewers made 27 oobHM this year, per baseball reference. So, once a week a guy got thrown out at home. Villar was responsible for 6 of them.

 

The Cubs made 23, St Louis made 20.

[Oxy]

I think baseball prospectus and ESPN had an article on this and they may have been the same article but the success rate should be something around 75%. If you have a success rate of anything higher than 80% the 3B coach was being to conservative and if below 70% to aggressive. I believe the article pointed out that 3B coaches should just be a windmill and send everyone as their success would be at or around the 75% success rate then. At the end of the year 3B coaches were leaving about 3 or 4 runs on the table with the way they are currently sending players for the year.

 

I am not sure on what Sedar's success rate was for this year but I am going to guess and it would be around the 70% mark.

 

 

Excellent post. I have no problem with 3rd outs being made at the plate as long as it is a close play. Putting the pressure on the defense to make a play is a good thing, and if the likelihood that they make a perfect play is less likely than our next batter driving in the guy from third with 2 outs, then the right decision was made.

[jerichoholicninja]

I think baseball prospectus and ESPN had an article on this and they may have been the same article but the success rate should be something around 75%. If you have a success rate of anything higher than 80% the 3B coach was being to conservative and if below 70% to aggressive. I believe the article pointed out that 3B coaches should just be a windmill and send everyone as their success would be at or around the 75% success rate then. At the end of the year 3B coaches were leaving about 3 or 4 runs on the table with the way they are currently sending players for the year.

 

I am not sure on what Sedar's success rate was for this year but I am going to guess and it would be around the 70% mark.

 

 

Excellent post. I have no problem with 3rd outs being made at the plate as long as it is a close play. Putting the pressure on the defense to make a play is a good thing, and if the likelihood that they make a perfect play is less likely than our next batter driving in the guy from third with 2 outs, then the right decision was made.

 

The thing is it's not the close plays that most of us are frustrated about. It's the easy out by a half mile plays that happen too often. What have many of us posters been complaining about the past few years? Stupid baserunning. What we fans see as stupid this organization sees as aggressive and Eddy is just following orders. It didn't change this year so I'm guessing Stearns is on board with it so it probably won't be changing any time soon. I hope they have actual data to back up the philosophy and not just the "make the defense make a play" line that's get thrown around all too often. These are major league defenders, they are going to make the play the vast majority of the time.

[Thurston Fluff]

 

The thing is it's not the close plays that most of us are frustrated about. It's the easy out by a half mile plays that happen too often. What have many of us posters been complaining about the past few years? Stupid baserunning. What we fans see as stupid this organization sees as aggressive and Eddy is just following orders. It didn't change this year so I'm guessing Stearns is on board with it so it probably won't be changing any time soon. I hope they have actual data to back up the philosophy and not just the "make the defense make a play" line that's get thrown around all too often. These are major league defenders, they are going to make the play the vast majority of the time.

 

 

Do you seriously think Stearns and company would not have data it up? Being an analytics guy is pretty much why he was hired to begin with.

[jerichoholicninja]

 

The thing is it's not the close plays that most of us are frustrated about. It's the easy out by a half mile plays that happen too often. What have many of us posters been complaining about the past few years? Stupid baserunning. What we fans see as stupid this organization sees as aggressive and Eddy is just following orders. It didn't change this year so I'm guessing Stearns is on board with it so it probably won't be changing any time soon. I hope they have actual data to back up the philosophy and not just the "make the defense make a play" line that's get thrown around all too often. These are major league defenders, they are going to make the play the vast majority of the time.

 

 

Do you seriously think Stearns and company would not have data it up? Being an analytics guy is pretty much why he was hired to begin with.

 

Stearns didn't start this. It was Runnin' Ron.

[Thurston Fluff]

 

The thing is it's not the close plays that most of us are frustrated about. It's the easy out by a half mile plays that happen too often. What have many of us posters been complaining about the past few years? Stupid baserunning. What we fans see as stupid this organization sees as aggressive and Eddy is just following orders. It didn't change this year so I'm guessing Stearns is on board with it so it probably won't be changing any time soon. I hope they have actual data to back up the philosophy and not just the "make the defense make a play" line that's get thrown around all too often. These are major league defenders, they are going to make the play the vast majority of the time.

 

 

Do you seriously think Stearns and company would not have data it up? Being an analytics guy is pretty much why he was hired to begin with.

 

Stearns didn't start this. It was Runnin' Ron.

 

So what you are saying is they fired RRR, "Retired" Doug Melvin, turned over the majority of the 40 man roster and changed several coaches last season but keep the third base coach/philosophy this year because Running Ron started it? No offense but that is pretty far fetched.

[jerichoholicninja]

So what you are saying is they fired RRR, "Retired" Doug Melvin, turned over the majority of the 40 man roster and changed several coaches last season but keep the third base coach/philosophy this year because Running Ron started it? No offense but that is pretty far fetched.

 

I'm not sure why you're taking offense and having such an attitude about the topic. [sarcasm]You're probably Eddy trying to defend himself against those meanies on the internets.[/sarcasm]

[homer]

I would be surprised if there's any philosophy behind it. They probably don't think it's a big deal right now. Or they've done an analysis with other teams and found that the Brewers are no worse than anyone else.

[sveumrules]

The brewers made 27 oobHM this year, per baseball reference. So, once a week a guy got thrown out at home. Villar was responsible for 6 of them.

 

The Cubs made 23, St Louis made 20.

 

Really interesting information, Baldkin. I never realized that baseball reference tracked team baserunning stats in such detail. Here are how the Brewers have fared in terms of runners thrown out at home during the Sedar era (2011-16) and over the same size sample previous. League average has fluctuated between 16 & 19 runners thrown out at home per year from 2005-16.

 

2016: 27 (1st)

2015: 19 (15th)

2014: 19 (12th)

2013: 27 (1st)

2012: 24 (5th)

2011: 27 (5th)

(Pre Sedar)

2010: 18 (15th)

2009: 19 (11th)

2008: 18 (17th)

2007: 14 (26th)

2006: 23 (5th)

2005: 23 (4th)

[TURBO]

So two of the last four years we have been the worst at getting runners thrown out at home? The two years prior, we were in the top five? That truly is horrible.

[stoutdude04]

So two of the last four years we have been the worst at getting runners thrown out at home? The two years prior, we were in the top five? That truly is horrible.

 

No kidding. It is ridiculous that the guy still has a job as a 3rd base coach. Even the eye test shows how awful he is. Guys are routinely being thrown out by wide margins and then they chalk it up to being aggressive or needing a good throw...ok.

 

To go a step further...we were 25th in the league in runs scored with 671. So, we were 1st in the league with runners thrown out at home with far fewer opportunities than other teams in the league. Neat stuff.

[MKE81]

These are just the numbers of players thrown out at home - it doesn't tell you how many runners were thrown out on close plays or by 10 feet. Those are the numbers that actually tell you something. For me, if the average is 16-19 and we're 8+ runs more than that I personally could care less. You're talking over 162 games and unless there's a break down of whether or not those specific runners thrown out could have altered the outcome of the game then who cares. Additionally, when you're struggling to score runs you take more chances on the bases to try to make something happen. The Brewers led baseball in SB this year (at least I think we did but could be wrong!) and were much more aggressive on the bases across the board, which is why we went from average the past 2yrs to leading the league.