Developing pitching

[adambr2]

The long Achilles heel of this organization has been to develop good starting pitching. It's sadly no exaggeration to say that this system has produced one true frontline starting pitcher (Sheets) in the last 25 years.

 

Just for historic reference, I looked back at our top pitching prospects from 5 years ago. It's not a pretty sight. You've got Peralta, who at least has had his moments. Then you've got Cody Scarpetta, Kyle Heckathorn, and Nic Bucci.

 

It makes me wonder if we should pause a little bit on the expectations of our current pitching prospects, or if it's simply that the prior generation list simply wasn't up to par with the ones we have now. Or if there is a systematic coaching problem with our pitchers down on the farm.

[sveumrules]

There has at least been some progress made lately with guys like Peralta, Nelson, Fiers & Thornburg coming up through the system & having some degree of success at the MLB level. You could kind of count Jeffress in there too, though his route was a little more circuitous.

 

At this point so much has changed from the scouting/front office/coaching personnel in MKE to the rules of the draft itself that it's hard for me to hold the JM Golds, Nick Neugebauers, Mike Joneses, Mark Rogerses or Jed Bradleys of the world against our current crop of pitching prospects.

[adambr2]

You could kind of count Jeffress in there too, though his route was a little more circuitous.

.

 

I've always gone back and forth as to whether Jeffress should be considered a successful 1st round pick, or just lumped in as a successful scrap heap pick up.

 

One of those rare ones that benefitted us in major trades twice, though I don't believe he was considered a major piece in the Greinke deal IIRC.

[Mass Haas]

The long Achilles heel of this organization has been to develop good starting pitching. It's sadly no exaggeration to say that this system has produced one true frontline starting pitcher (Sheets) in the last 25 years.

 

Gallardo.

 

(I made the same mistake in a tweet earlier this year.)

[adambr2]

The long Achilles heel of this organization has been to develop good starting pitching. It's sadly no exaggeration to say that this system has produced one true frontline starting pitcher (Sheets) in the last 25 years.

 

Gallardo.

 

(I made the same mistake in a tweet earlier this year.)

 

I guess I was thinking in terms of a true ace, which IMO Sheets was the one and only. I always thought of Gallardo as a solid #2, but not a #1 starter.

[brewmann04]

yes we have not drafted a true #1 guy in a while and think that something that needed to complete the rebuild.

[FVBrewerFan]

Something I've advocated here before is a VP-Pitching. Or give it whatever title you would like. This person would report directly to Stearns. In my experience, you need to have a laser focus on something if you want to improve. You see this in the business world whether it be customer service, employee relations, quality control, etc.

 

Rather than having these duties mixed in with scouting position players, coaching them, etc., I think they need to have one person directly responsible for all aspects of pitching from top to bottom. Let this person bring in some of the top scouts and coaches from pitching rich organizations. Think outside the box with training techniques, mechanics, etc.

 

Sure, this can be done without this position I'm talking about. But again, having a single person in charge with a laser focus on just pitching is worth a try.

[And That]

Didn't they kind of try that with Rick Peterson? I remember when he came, everyone in the organization got their delivery analyzed, players with higher injury risks were flagged, etc.

 

Not to say they shouldn't do something like what you mentioned, it's a good idea.

 

Edit: Peterson is now the Orioles' "Director of Pitching Development" - a role he's held since 2012.

[homer]

I don't think this is strictly a Brewers problem. It's a crap shoot. Get as many quality arms as you can and hope one or two of them develop.

[jerichoholicninja]

I don't think this is strictly a Brewers problem. It's a crap shoot. Get as many quality arms as you can and hope one or two of them develop.

 

This is very true. I would say developing pitching is probably about 75% luck. The Rays and the Cardinals are the only two organizations that come to mind that have consistently developed starting pitching the last 5-10 years. And even then they've still had injury issues.

[JohnBriggs12]

Didn't they kind of try that with Rick Peterson? I remember when he came, everyone in the organization got their delivery analyzed, players with higher injury risks were flagged, etc.

 

Not to say they shouldn't do something like what you mentioned, it's a good idea.

 

Edit: Peterson is now the Orioles' "Director of Pitching Development" - a role he's held since 2012.

 

Orioles are in worse shape starting pitching-wise than Brewers so maybe it's a good thing Peterson's not around.

 

Maybe Brewers need to spend some money and get Don Cooper from White Sox, now that they have new manger. He's helped Sale become one of the top pitchers in the game, and from all I've read, Hader's stuff and delivery are very similar.

[LouisEly]

Interesting topic. If you go back 15-20 years, it was a crap shoot because there was no such thing as innings/pitch limits. My friend who played in the Brewers system in the late 90's said the philosophy in the minors was that, other than very high draft picks, they put the HS pitchers in the starting rotation and the college arms in the bullpen because "the HS pitchers needed more work". Well, yes, and they got too much work too early and they burned out their arms. Gold, Neugebauer, and Jones were all legitimate pitching prospects who got burned out because they threw too many pitches too early in their pro careers. It wasn't until around 2005 that the link was discovered between workload jump and injuries. Gallardo didn't have as heavy innings as the others because he didn't walk as many. Odorizzi was brought along more slowly, and didn't develop arm trouble.

 

Getting into the time period around 2010-2011, I recall Melvin making two comments regarding pitching: 1) realizing Miller Park was home run prone and subsequently they needed to focus on ground ball pitchers, and 2) bigger-bodied pitchers seemed to be less injury-prone. That was the impetus for drafting Jungmann and especially Bradley. It had nothing to do with "quick to the majors"/"high floor"; if it was about that, they would not have drafted Covey #1 in 2010, would not have drafted Lopez in the 2nd in 2011, and would not have drafted Coulter #1 in 2012. Jungmann and Bradley were drafted because they were bigger bodied pitchers willing to sign for close to slot value and because they didn't give up a lot of HRs in college. They loved Bradley because he was a ground ball pitcher - in 2011 at GA Tech he only gave up one HR in 400 PAs.

 

In the end those things probably hurt more than they helped. You can only make decisions with the information you have at the time. But the Royals and others have shown that you don't need a staff ace to win a World Series. Despite having Kershaw, Grienke, and others, the Dodgers haven't won a WS recently.

[homer]

When JM Gold was 19 he threw 111 innings. When Gallardo was 19 he threw 121 innings. But as for workload, yes it might have impacted things but again this is not unique to the Brewers.

[LouisEly]

That's why it was a crap shoot at that time. Some guys could handle it, some couldn't.

[TheCrew07]

In the end those things probably hurt more than they helped. You can only make decisions with the information you have at the time. But the Royals and others have shown that you don't need a staff ace to win a World Series. Despite having Kershaw, Grienke, and others, the Dodgers haven't won a WS recently.

 

I think too much is being made of this bullpen thing. Most of those awesome bullpen pitchers had stuff and a big arm when they were acquired, but for various reasons didn't work out in the rotation and fell back to the bullpen, like Wade Davis. What I mean is that having starters to get you through 4-5 innings wasn't the plan, it was just how it worked out, and relying on the bullpen for half the innings in a game only works in the post season because of the off days.

 

The flip side is what Bumgarner did last night.

 

I absolutely agree that there is always more than 1 way to get home, but the idea should be to acquire as many legitimate pitchers from a stuff and arm standpoint as possible let them shake out as they will. I still firmly believe that we don't need an "ace", the goal should be 3 #2 type starting pitchers, I'd be ecstatic with a 1-3 of Gallardo types, because the rest of the guys with legit stuff will end up in the bullpen and we'll have a very strong pitching staff all the way around.

 

I'm not big into one or the other type scenarios, the Brewer's weren't developing bullpen arms for the same reason they weren't developing starters, there simply weren't enough high quality arms in the system at any given point to do so. Impact pitchers, starters or relievers, all come from the same pool, and creating that depth is the key issue.

 

Most years the Brewers have been lucky to have a 1 or 2, then a 3, and then 3 #4/#5 type starters, hence the "Capauno is the true staff ace" type of post from years ago.

[brewmann04]

Hopefully the Brewers luck will chance a bit and maybe find that stud pitcher we can only hope

[adambr2]

I'm flabbergasted with the success that Jed Bradley has had since we traded him. To me, it's an alarming red flag with regard to our minors coaching to see that drastic of a change just by changing organizations.

[Noche]

I'm flabbergasted with the success that Jed Bradley has had since we traded him. To me, it's an alarming red flag with regard to our minors coaching to see that drastic of a change just by changing organizations.

 

I'd argue he didn't change. The ERA was low in AA and AAA but he was allowing a boat load of base runners still. Then in the MLB, his WHIP was almost 2.00 over 7 innings. He also had successful stretches in the Brewers system as well so let's not pretend he was some sort of lost soul in our system.

 

This is a lefty specialist ceiling and those guys are easily acquirable off the scrap heap as reclamation projects every year.

 

If you feel like getting up in arms over a pitcher we dumped, look no further than that Lind-Estrada deal. Thank goodness we received solid value for Lind.

[And That]

I'm flabbergasted with the success that Jed Bradley has had since we traded him. To me, it's an alarming red flag with regard to our minors coaching to see that drastic of a change just by changing organizations.

So is it flabbergasting that the Braves removed Bradley from their 40-man roster and the Orioles claimed him?

 

These things happen to every team. Kyle Wren is making the Braves look about as silly as Jed Bradley is making the Brewers look silly.

[adambr2]

I'm flabbergasted with the success that Jed Bradley has had since we traded him. To me, it's an alarming red flag with regard to our minors coaching to see that drastic of a change just by changing organizations.

So is it flabbergasting that the Braves removed Bradley from their 40-man roster and the Orioles claimed him?

 

These things happen to every team. Kyle Wren is making the Braves look about as silly as Jed Bradley is making the Brewers look silly.

 

As I stated in the Bradley thread I was very surprised the Braves let him walk. That said, it doesn't change the drastic difference between his performance between the two farms. It's possible that Bradley just needed a change of scenery.

 

I don't really follow the Wren comparison. His performance here hasn't been drastically different than with the Braves, especially if you account for the Colorado Springs factor.

[And That]

I don't really follow the Wren comparison. His performance here hasn't been drastically different than with the Braves, especially if you account for the Colorado Springs factor.

Bradley's performance wasn't drastically different, either. His walk rate increased, and his strand rate went way up. I think it was a little dumb for the Brewers to give up on him, but it was a little dumb for the Braves to give up on Wren, too.

[LouisEly]

I think the biggest mistake the Brewers made when it comes to pitching development was not retaining Bosio as pitching coach in 2009. I don't think it is coincidence that Bosio is the pitching coach of the Cubs and that the Cubs have the best staff ERA in MLB. Arrietta was not a TOR starter when he was acquired by the Cubs. Hendricks had nice minor league numbers but was never a top 100 prospect and his 7.7 K/9 in the minors didn't project to what he is doing in the majors. Hammel was nothing special until he came to the Cubs.

 

Bosio was a very successful minor league pitching coach and in 2009 when he was PC at Nashville the Sounds led the league in staff ERA with the most innings pitched coming from the likes of Dillard, Lindsay Gulin (who?), Chase Wright, Chris Cody, Mike Burns, Matt Ginter, Sam Narron, Chris Narveson, Nick Green, David Johnson, and Ryan Houston. He didn't do it riding the coattails of some future major league stars.