Counsell and the Rebuild

[BrewCrewBlueDevil]

Will Counsell survive this off season? It is pretty clear Milwaukee is nose diving and the players seem to lack motivation. Lots of moves leave me scratching my head (Maldonado over Piña, not starting Broxton daily, running out the same struggling starters). Seems to me like they need a butt kicker, not a "student of the game." Boy, I thought Dale Sveum was the man for the job and still believe it. At least he has a little fire.

[TheCrew07]

I'm concerned with how well he can teach the game, I do understand that people think he's really smart but I have a very hard time getting past his horrible batting stance, nothing about it made sense. I'm mostly concerned with the player development side and if he nails that with the prospects as they come up I'll be happy.

 

The organization seems enamored with him so he'll stick around for quite a while.

[IndyCrew]

Yes. He's their guy.

[dlk9s]

Will Counsell survive this off season? It is pretty clear Milwaukee is nose diving and the players seem to lack motivation. Lots of moves leave me scratching my head (Maldonado over Piña, not starting Broxton daily, running out the same struggling starters). Seems to me like they need a butt kicker, not a "student of the game." Boy, I thought Dale Sveum was the man for the job and still believe it. At least he has a little fire.

 

In what way are they nose diving? They haven't done very well the last two days, but they did just score in every inning this week. They've been hovering in the 10-12 games under .500 range for quite a while.

 

Maldonado is the starting catcher. And as for "running out the same struggling starters," I'm not sure what you expect Counsell to do about that.

 

This isn't a good team, it wasn't going to be a good team. It's certainly not Counsell's fault. Yelling at players isn't going to make them play better.

[jerichoholicninja]

Of course he will be back next year. The team is crappy this year, that's not Craig's fault. We may not like who how he's giving out playing time but Stearns has turned over the roster so much in his short time here I doubt he's letting Craig do whatever he wants and probably has his ear about who should be playing.

 

Having said that, I think next year is when he's managing for his job (I also think it's contract year for him). 2018 should at least be a return to credibility and Stearns may want to bring in his own guy for that. From my personal TV watching perspective I feel like he's taken a step back as a manager. His decision making about pulling starters has been downright confusing this year and the sudden increase in players swinging on 3-0 is baffling. Last year in the dugout it looked like he brought energy and a real sense of "being into" the game. This year he's turned into Grandpa Ken with his ho-hum and general appearance of being disinterested in the game. Especially evidenced by his lackluster attempt to get thrown out last night no doubt hoping to "fire up" his team. That was almost embarrassing to watch as the ump didn't even buy into it.

 

Of course we hate every Brewer manager though.

[dlk9s]

Especially evidenced by his lackluster attempt to get thrown out last night no doubt hoping to "fire up" his team. That was almost embarrassing to watch as the ump didn't even buy into it.

I didn't see it, but I think Counsell just doesn't have it in his demeanor to fly off the hook. I would imagine that it definitely awkward for him to try to get all mad at an ump. It's like the joke in "Seinfeld" when Jerry would never look convincing when he got angry.

[clancyphile]

I think Counsell will be the guy for the long haul. Much like Yost, they see him as being able to develop the young players.

 

I sometimes wonder what would have been if Yost hadn't been fired. Would the team have done better?

[MKE81]

There is no nose dive. They also didn't play the second half of this game very well and put up 5 still. The players appear unmotivated? You must be watching a different game. They're all playing with the same effort since day 1. The lineup is the same every day with the only difference being Kirk in the OF depending who's pitching. As long as Broxton is getting CF 5 out of 7 games I personally don't care (which he is). Maldy has been the backup for a while now and now moves up to the starting role. Giving him a 10 game leash is a slap in the face and a horrendous decision given he's earned his chance to show as a starter, especially in a season that's already lost. Some people want a manager that is emotional, others don't and others (me) could care less about how much fire is shown during a game by the manager because the amount of fire shown doesn't equate to more wins. This board is just whining about everything lately.

 

And regarding the comment about how his personal batting stance means you question his ability to teach the game - take a deep breath and think about that for a second. What an absurd remark. Anybody can stand however they want - it's called being comfortable - because when the pitch comes his stance is exactly where every other players is and that's what matters. He just wasn't as naturally gifted/talented as others. That has nothing to do with his intellect and coaching ability. If you can't see the cultural shift from the beginning of last year to this year then you're blind

[pacopete4]

These posts always seem so silly to me because where is there ever any evidence of this team quitting? Just so hard to judge that.

[Ennder]

Starting Pina over Maldonado seems like a poor move. The team has more wins than I expected to the point I'm worried we won't get a top end draft pick at this point.

 

Maldondado has the best BB rate of his career, lowest K rate in the past 4 season, better ISO than recent years in general, he is popping out less than normal, hitting more HR/FB than normal, has cut down in soft contact etc. In almost every way other than BABIP related features he has improved as a hitter significantly this year.

[TheCrew07]

And regarding the comment about how his personal batting stance means you question his ability to teach the game - take a deep breath and think about that for a second. What an absurd remark. Anybody can stand however they want - it's called being comfortable - because when the pitch comes his stance is exactly where every other players is and that's what matters. He just wasn't as naturally gifted/talented as others. That has nothing to do with his intellect and coaching ability. If you can't see the cultural shift from the beginning of last year to this year then you're blind

 

I think you need should probably reconsider your opinion on this topic.

 

It's not about comfort or any other silly emotional zone, it's about players putting themselves into a position to succeed, and the easiest way to do that is to simplify and get back to the fundamental basics. CC wasn't a talented hitter: he wasn't strong, wasn't above average athletically, didn't have exceptional hand/eye coordination, so in effect he did everything he could as a player to limit his offensive potential with that rubber band stance. Maybe he learned from his experience, maybe he didn't, but that's not the type of player who typically is good a teacher of the game, those are generally players who were adaptable and got the most out their talent, I never saw that from CC as a player. At the opposite end of the spectrum great players are rarely good coaches because everything came so naturally to them that they aren't able to explain to others how to do what they did... simply because they just reacted and things always worked out for them.

 

I absolutely do not see baseball, or sports in general, the same way the majority of people do, I have much different perspective and see things that others simply don't care about. It's fine if you don't view CC the same way I do, or the Brewers, or baseball, I expect that as it has been the norm on this site for a long time. I don't watch as a fan, I'm not able to do that anymore even though sometimes I wish I could, I watch as a coach, and when you do that you see the game in a much deeper way which is difficult to explain.

 

I have no idea how to qualify of lifetime of experience and distill it down to meaningful rebuttal of a petty attack. I would like to say it should be beneath you as person, but I don't know you, so playing the internet tough guy might well be the only contribution you'll make.

[Thurston Fluff]

How long does the manager carousel have to go around before people figure out the manager was never the problem? Here's a thought, lets change things up and let a single system in place for more than two years. It doesn't even make sense in the motivational "kick some arse" perspective. Anyone who isn't self motivated is going to get motivated by any revolving door manager. By continuously firing the manger you actually create an atmosphere where the manager can't kick some arse.

[Boomer5]

Counsell has the team playing hard and if anything he has a very bad roster over achieving.

 

I see no reason to get rid of him at all. Is there some inside info here because on the surface he has done an amazing job.

[BrewCrewBlueDevil]

Nose dive: 4 and 6 over the past 10 and the schedule is about to toughen up. To me it looks like their isn't a lot of fire (I.e. - players going thru the motions). Piña destroyed AAA pitching. Maldonado hit .200 and has not been a good hitter, ever. This is MLB. Not sure he gives Milwaukee the best chance to win. The handling of starting pitchers, and pulling them, is down right baffling at times.

[sveumrules]

...those are generally players who were adaptable and got the most out their talent, I never saw that from CC as a player.

 

Counsell was an 11th round pick who played over 1,600 games in 16 seasons, got over 5,000 plate appearances and started on two WS winners. He ran a BB% over 10 with an .089 ISO. I think he is a perfect example of someone who got the most out of their talent.

[jerichoholicninja]

And regarding the comment about how his personal batting stance means you question his ability to teach the game - take a deep breath and think about that for a second. What an absurd remark. Anybody can stand however they want - it's called being comfortable - because when the pitch comes his stance is exactly where every other players is and that's what matters. He just wasn't as naturally gifted/talented as others. That has nothing to do with his intellect and coaching ability. If you can't see the cultural shift from the beginning of last year to this year then you're blind

 

I think you need should probably reconsider your opinion on this topic.

 

It's not about comfort or any other silly emotional zone, it's about players putting themselves into a position to succeed, and the easiest way to do that is to simplify and get back to the fundamental basics. CC wasn't a talented hitter: he wasn't strong, wasn't above average athletically, didn't have exceptional hand/eye coordination, so in effect he did everything he could as a player to limit his offensive potential with that rubber band stance. Maybe he learned from his experience, maybe he didn't, but that's not the type of player who typically is good a teacher of the game, those are generally players who were adaptable and got the most out their talent, I never saw that from CC as a player. At the opposite end of the spectrum great players are rarely good coaches because everything came so naturally to them that they aren't able to explain to others how to do what they did... simply because they just reacted and things always worked out for them.

 

I absolutely do not see baseball, or sports in general, the same way the majority of people do, I have much different perspective and see things that others simply don't care about. It's fine if you don't view CC the same way I do, or the Brewers, or baseball, I expect that as it has been the norm on this site for a long time. I don't watch as a fan, I'm not able to do that anymore even though sometimes I wish I could, I watch as a coach, and when you do that you see the game in a much deeper way which is difficult to explain.

 

I have no idea how to qualify of lifetime of experience and distill it down to meaningful rebuttal of a petty attack. I would like to say it should be beneath you as person, but I don't know you, so playing the internet tough guy might well be the only contribution you'll make.

 

Well he's the manager, not a coach. I'm sure he does a fair bit of coaching but his job is about making decisions about how to put/use players in positions they can succeed. The teaching of the game should have happened well before Milwaukee in the minors.

[dlk9s]

Nose dive: 4 and 6 over the past 10 and the schedule is about to toughen up.

So how is this a nosedive again? Also, why does it matter?

[Ennder]

The time to make a decision one way or another on Counsell is likely the first year we are actually thinking about winning at the big leagues as the primary goal. The timing just seems really odd to change managers right now. We aren't maximizing wins in 2017, it is 2018 or beyond.

[jerichoholicninja]

The time to make a decision one way or another on Counsell is likely the first year we are actually thinking about winning at the big leagues as the primary goal. The timing just seems really odd to change managers right now. We aren't maximizing wins in 2017, it is 2018 or beyond.

 

Exactly. The only thing Counsell really has going against his right now is that David didn't hire him. Which is why I think next year is what will really determine his fate. Does Stearns trust him to win with the players he brought in or will he bring in his own guy.

 

I also think it will be interesting to see what happens with Matt Erickson. He was praised by the Melvin regime and Stearns did the same a couple weeks ago. Before Ron was fired I felt Matt was next in line to manage or at least be moved up to Milwaukee to be the next next in line. If any big league coaches aren't brought back next year (please lord let Ed get a pink slip) and Matt is brought up to replace them I think that might be a sign of him being considered as an eventual replacement. Especially since he would have had a hand in developing the next wave of talent.

[MilwaukeesBest]

Also, I'm sure as Jerico brushed on earlier, Stearns must be in the ear of Counsell at times telling him which guys to use in which situations to get the most value out of their roster as a whole. Showcasing guys and putting them in the best positions to succeed not just for wins but for trade value also. As Broxton's shown recently he has maybe figured something significant out in his stroke, he's found the lineup more.

 

The way he's managed the bullpen before and after the deadline has been pretty well in my opinion. The only issue I ever had was not playing Broxton in a lost year anyway, but that issue has seemed to fix itself. Any others are relatively small and would be front office things (DFA'ing Flores, Middlebrooks over Cecchini, etc., but those are just my preferences). I don't know what else anyone realistically expects coming from a fairly new manager with a club expected to be one of, if not the worst team in baseball. Oh by the way, that was before they traded their three best players at the deadline.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Oh by the way, that was before they traded their three best players at the deadline.

 

 

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/111213121948-braun-drug-story-top.jpg

[BuckyBrewer61]

Counsell isn't going anywhere, he will be around at least until the first wave of prospects gets to the MLB and he has a chance to manage a team that's actually expected to compete in some capacity. I know Stearns didn't hire him, but he is the Brewers' guy, no questions.

 

I think baseball manager is the toughest coaching/managing position in sports from a fan scrutiny perspective. Yes I would like to see Villar reigned in on the base paths and Broxton play every day. But in general, I think Craig has been the best manager the Brewers have had in some time, maybe since old Scrap Iron? I think he puts together a good lineup, doesn't pigeon-hole his players/positions like RRR and many managers do, and IMO the players seem to play hard for him. I'd take him over Roenicke, Macha, Yost (I know he won a WS but I loathed him when he was in MKE), and the other recent jokers that came before them.

 

Not only has he been good with a bad roster, but he is a local boy and beloved by fans, so he is the perfect face of the rebuild. Things will be different once we get back to competing, but I for one am optimistic.

[MrTPlush]

Craig Counsell has made a lot of weird decision in a lot of different aspects of managing, but honestly I don't think Stearns cares that much. He wasn't brought in to help win is a couple more games.

every year. He was brought in to help the young guys adjust to the MLB level and watch the rebuild.

 

I think they dump him after next year when his contract expires for someone they think can manage a winner. For now he is safe.

[joepepsi]

They are 43-49 since May 1st. I expect they won't be able to keep up that pace after the deadline trades, but I feel Counsell has gotten the best performance possible out of this team. I don't understand why Broxton isn't playing every day in CF, but I don't have any other complaints. Counsell seems to be onboard with modern analytics and is a good match with the new direction of the team. I expect him to be around for several more seasons.

[BuckyBrewer61]

Baseball manager, while easiest to scrutinize, I believe is also a position that has relatively little impact on wins and losses compared to other sports. Calling football plays against a blitz, or blitzing against the right play, substituting a lineup that creates mismatches against the opponent in basketball or playing a pace to your advantage, etc I feel has more impact on the outcome of a game.

 

In baseball, you set a lineup and let the guys play. There are certainly differences in strategy, but the influence of calling a hit-and-run, giving a guy a green light to steal, calling the infield in, etc pales in comparison to simply having guys that can hit and pitch in the lineup in the first place.

 

We love to scrutinize every little thing, but really over the course of a year a great manager is probably worth a couple wins. Not to say that's a reason to give the manager a free pass by any stretch, but after the lineup is set the game is more on the shoulders of the players than in any other sport IMO. I think Craig has done a pretty good job putting a mediocre-to-bad roster of players in position to succeed, for the most part.