Catchers going forward

[QuevedosTongue]

I always hear how good Maldy is defensively, but is that really the case? I know he has a cannon for an arm, but he doesn't seem like a guy that's real agile around the plate or a guy that blocks balls very well. Last night was a perfect example, where he lets a ball go right underneath his glove allowing the runners to advance to 2nd and 3rd. Next batter hits a routine grounder to SS that would have been an easy GIDP, but instead a run scores. Yes, he has a great arm - but is he truly an all-around defensive catcher? I have no idea how he is at calling a game, so I'll leave that to somebody that has more data to back it up.

 

I think there are a fair number of catchers who can't hit, so people think they are good defensively, because why else would teams play them?

 

That said, both Baseball Prospectus and Fangraphs grade him as a reasonably good, and the eyeball test tells me he's pretty good, so I'll go with that.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Maldonado is the absolute definition of a backup catcher. He plays good D, he throws out runners at a good rate, he handles pitchers well. He doesn't hit great, but he has a little bit of pop, and he can at least draw a walk. He's certainly not a guy that should be starting 70 games or more a year, but I don't have a problem with him being the backup for 40-ish games.

 

The way you describe him, he sounds like a halfway decent starting catcher. Catcher is an incredibly shallow position across baseball. We've been spoiled having a good one with Lucroy.

 

 

Well.......2 of the last 4 years he's OPS'd below .600. This year he's hovering around .700. If he OPS'd .700 with his above average + arm, he would be a starting catcher.

 

I like the guy. He fills a role, and he isn't terrible offensively, and can handle himself behind the plate.

[SoCalBrewfan]

If Maldy hits .240/.250 I'll buy season tickets for you.

 

I think the .240 OBP he can do but the SLG might be a stretch.

[DougJonesChangeUp]

I've always like Maldonado and thought his stick was underrated. It will be interesting to see how he does with regular ab's. I also like how he utilizes the high fastball when calling a game. Thought Lucroy didn't do enough of that.

[TheCrew07]

If I remember right, the people on this board who really study the minors were surprised by Nottingham starting out at AA this year. They expected him to be in BC. I can't speak to his defense. I have never seen him play. I wouldn't give up on his offense yet because of his age. Getting back to catching defense. A couple of years ago we moved Coulter to the outfield and he really doesn't hit well enough for that. I am wondering if the Brewers don't have to accept some of the responsibility. In the last 40 years we have developed one two-way catcher: Jonathan Lucroy. That is not a good track record. I am wondering if Nottingham and Coulter couldn't be coached up a little better and develop into catchers.

 

Charlie Green was on the road all the time working with the catchers in the organization, it's not for lack for effort. There's only so many coaches and each coach only has so much time on the field before the games each day, it's not like there's an over abundance of individual coaching time available. I think many people have an unrealistic expectation of how much individual instruction the minor leaguers in the system get... and that's not even factoring in the political stuff like high draft picks and international signing bonuses which skew the organization's perspective and efforts towards those particular players. Professional baseball isn't an even playing field, or at least it wasn't, not all players receive the same amount of instruction.

 

Coulter was never going to be a MLB catcher, I said after it after watching him play for a month, and people argued with me about it until he was actually shipped to the OF after being terrible at 3B during instructionals. He wasn't a good receiver and he was terrible at blocking balls, never once did I see him react down to his knees and smother a pitch with his body, he was always reaching and trying to pick or stab at the ball. Generally speaking you can tell how good the catcher is simply by the number of wild pitches assigned to the pitchers he catches.

 

I didn't watch much of Biloxi this season, only here and there to get a feel of Hader when I had time, I wasn't taking notes on the entire team like I do when I'm watching on the DVR. There aren't any positive scouting reports on Nottingham's defense and statistically he's been pretty terrible through the first 4 months. The Brewers didn't really start trying to fix Mat Gamel at 3B until he got to AA and I think by that time it's probably too late, there just isn't enough time between AA and MLB to turn someone around. I think there's been a renewed focus on defense up and down the organization since that time, and Nottingham could certainly repeat as he's young enough, but he's got a ton work to do if he's even going to be considered adequate defensively at MLB, and most of it is going to have to come in the off-season. I would consider his outlook as a C to be bleak at this time. He started horribly with the bat and then was very good for about 6 weeks before slumping again, he still has plenty of tools to be excited about from an offensive perspective if he can find some consistency.

 

I really liked Carlos Leal defensively in WI last year but he required shoulder surgery and didn't play at all this season so who knows what kind of player he'll be when he returns.

 

Max McDowell has been absolutely stellar throwing out baserunners down at A ball, but his receiving is below average. He's starting at about the same place (give or take a little) that Lucroy did so you never know, it all comes down to how bad they want to be good and how much work they are willing to put into it.

 

Generally speaking the C to come through WI have been poor defensively, the duo or trio have routinely been at the bottom of the league defensively, so I think it's more the players that the organization has been targeting than any issue on the development side. For those college kids there's just very little time between being drafted, rookie ball, and then hitting WI the following year for player development so I'm seeing them in pretty much the same state they were when drafted, and by comparison to the rest of the Midwest League our players just haven't been as good.

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

I liked Carlos Leal as well last year. Thanks for the comments.

[MilwaukeesBest]

I always hear how good Maldy is defensively, but is that really the case? I know he has a cannon for an arm, but he doesn't seem like a guy that's real agile around the plate or a guy that blocks balls very well. Last night was a perfect example, where he lets a ball go right underneath his glove allowing the runners to advance to 2nd and 3rd. Next batter hits a routine grounder to SS that would have been an easy GIDP, but instead a run scores. Yes, he has a great arm - but is he truly an all-around defensive catcher? I have no idea how he is at calling a game, so I'll leave that to somebody that has more data to back it up.

 

I remember the play you're referencing and to be fair Jimmy spiked a ball about 1.5 feet in front of home plate. Even Luc would have had a hard time with that.

[wichmae]

Like Susac but am a little concerned with his ability to throw out runners.

[brewmann04]

so wow the kid in his first year in double a and having his issues but can't seeing bring a down as others.

[wichmae]

so wow the kid in his first year in double a and having his issues but can't seeing bring a down as others.

You alright man?

[Crash2303]

No pinto love here? (Not in blue)

[And That]

Pinto is injured, and a FA after the season.

[umphrey]

It's simple, give Maldo most of the ABs this year out of politeness then it's Susac's job to lose. We drafted a lot of catchers this year and some of them are doing well especially that 2nd rounder so maybe we have one of those ready when Susac is getting around 30 years old.

 

Unless something goes terribly wrong with him he's our starter for the next 2-3 years.

[BiggyBallzer]

Hey guys! New to the forum but love the analysis!

 

I saw that there was a lot of talk about Jacob Nottingham and how terrible he is doing at double A. I have been following the Brewers farm system forever (typically with to much anticipation). On thing that stood out was that they assigned him to double A as a 21 year old. Just for reference the average age of someone in Double A is 24.9 in this 2009 article I'll post below. I can't imagine the average age changed that much in just a few years.

 

Also looking at a different article from this year posted below the average age of a player who stays in the majors for over 9 years is 23.6 years old.

 

I think it is way to early to write him off as either a top prospect or catcher.

 

http://projectprospect.com/article/2009/08/27/average-ages-by-level

 

http://sonsofsamhorn.com/baseball/teams/al-east/boston-red-sox/the-aging-curve-in-major-league-baseball/

[1992casey]

Welcome to Brewerfan, BiggyBallzer.

[monty57]

I think Pina and Maldonado split time through August to see who will stick around as Susec's backup next year. Really, it'll come down to whether Pina is bad enough that we'd pay a couple million to keep Maldonado for another year. Susec has the most upside, so I think he will be up in September and the job will be his to lose. Whoever gets the job, it's probably likely that we will see a lot more of the backup than we saw with Lucroy. It's rare to have a catcher play as much as him.

 

Ideally, both Susec and Pina will be good enough that management is willing to go with them into next season, and we can flip Maldonado this offseason for a couple of teenagers Stearns likes but no one on here has ever heard of.

[Austin Tatious]

Good discussion.

 

1. I like Andrew Susac as a potential workmanlike catcher.

2. Nobody is counting on Nottingham. That's fair. He's obviously not doing well either receiving or at the dish. I don't pretend to be watching him every day, but unless he indicates abject failure, I would keep him at double A next year catching. I had read good reports about his chances in spring training, and he's only 21 with a good makeup.

3. While there are significant questions about our instruction, I've repeatedly heard Charlie Greene singled out as being a good catcher coach.

4. It's a real pity what happened to Coulter. Once you take him off catcher, he's nothing special, and it's showing. I assume he had zero aptitude for catching, but if he could have caught he may have had a shot. The Brewers drafted him in the 1st round, and he's about where Payton Henry or Nottingham may have been, and they were 6th rounders.

5. If you look at the 2017 MLB draft projections, there are at least two catchers highly rated. JJ Schwarz has been hyped since high school. KJ Harrison is another. In view of how premium a position catcher is, I would take a long look at Schwarz if our draft position rises. If we get Schwarz in here, to go with Feliciano, Nottingham and Henry (not to take anything away from McDowell or Leal), but we would have some significant potential at catcher. If you've got a catcher that can hit, it can make a real difference in your lineup.

[gregmag]

It's discouraging that Nottingham doesn't seem to figure in. Nottingham cost them the prime years of a guy who has 46 HR and 111 RBI in the last calendar year. That was a major whiff by the boy genius.

 

No matter how many times you repeat this, and no matter how snotty your tone becomes, the statement doesn't come any closer to actual analysis, as opposed to hidebound bias.

 

Let's go over the very simple points you're either failing to consider, willfully ignoring, or being outright dishonest about:

 

Nottingham "doesn't seem to figure in" a conversation about catching for next year for a very simple reason: He's not quite 21 and a half and in his first year at AA, his second year above rookie ball. At no point in time did anyone project Nottingham as part of the MLB roster in 2017. He could be hitting .400 at AA and he wouldn't be up before September 2017. Making the point you made in a thread about the 2017 catching situation isn't discussion. It's trolling.

 

Nottingham, again, is 21 at AA. He hit well last year; he has hit poorly this year. His defense this year has been weak. Scouting reports have stated that he is working hard on his defense and improving. Talent evaluators continue to rate him as a strong prospect. From these facts we can conclude pretty much nothing solid about his future. Being a star catcher is still within his range of plausible outcomes. So is being a total bust first baseman. It's too early to know. IMHO his poor offensive season has dimmed his prospect luster, but only incrementally. Others might reasonably disagree, but I don't think any reasonable person would pronounce him a bust.

 

Khris Davis is an outstanding home run hitter. However, he does nothing else well. (RBI are worthless for evaluating hitters, because they depend on a combination of factors the hitter doesn't control and factors other stats already count.) He doesn't hit for average. He's a mediocre fielder. He can't throw at all. He can't run. He doesn't draw walks. He doesn't supplement his homers with doubles. He is the quintessential one-tool player. His one tool is probably the most in vogue among "boy geniuses" and others right now (though OBP, where he has regressed badly, is more important), and that gives him some value. But he wouldn't play every day on a contending team. His mighty dingers, combined with his rotten everything else, have produced 1.3 whole fWAR so far this year.

 

Khris Davis is 28. He is at an age where players, especially narrowly skilled players, rarely improve and routinely start to decline. His presence on the 2016 or 2017 Brewers would have zero relevance for our playoff hopes, because those hopes don't exist.

 

Most important, we all knew nearly all of these facts when the trade happened. Nottingham has lost a little bit of luster. Davis has regressed in OBP. That stuff is marginal. There is no solid reason to judge the trade any differently now than at the time. If you liked it then, you probably like it about as much now. If you disliked it then, you probably dislike it about as much now. If you want to have a serious, informed conversation about Nottingham's likely MLB role, we may be able to start that conversation in about a year.

[Crash2303]

Pinto is injured, and a FA after the season.

 

Pinto came off the DL yesterday and I believe would be protected and under team control if added to the 40 man. Regardless, I'm not by any means a Pinto apologist, and like Susac more for his complete game, but I think Pinto should definitely be put in the Susac/Maldy/Pina mix for catcher going forward. it's not like he's some journeyman 29 year old minor leaguer who is putting together a nice season ala Manny (who I love- and think he has found his stride and could put together a really nice 3-4 year MLB run). Pinto is a blue chip guy who has hit the tar off the ball at every level outside of his age 21 season in low A ball and last year at AAA (which may have more been due to lingering effects of a concussion which sidelined him for two months. Going in to the 2014 season he was rated by BA as the number 56 prospect in all of baseball and hit .963OPS that season with the Twinkies. He is currently entering his prime years at age 27 and hitting .874 OPS (granted in Colorado). He doesn't play particularly good defense (from what I have read from posters here) but also plays 1B. Just curious why no one has mentioned him and why he would not at least be in this conversation as one of the Brewer's possible catchers, in the post Lucroy era. Hope he gets a chance in September or next season to show what he can do again at the MLB level.