Lucroy and Jeffress to the Rangers for CF Lewis Brinson, RHP Luis Ortiz, PTBNL…(Lucroy comments, post 523; PTBNL is Ryan Cordell, post 581)

[Never Outhustled]

He cannot play SS or 3B to any of you who are considering it. He hasnt played IF in a year and was a disaster when he was there. He's most likely a guy who profiles much like Corey Hart or what we hoped Santana would be. Not sure why people are upset with this.

 

Domingo Santana was better in AA at age 20 than Cordell was 24. Santana is actually younger than Cordell.

Fairly certain you typed that wrong without looking up birthdates but Brinson literally just came from that AA team and was hitting pedestrian there as well. I also said profiles so not sure why youre trying to compare production. Two completely different things.

 

Nope, I looked up the birthdates, and like I said, Santana is younger than Cordell.

 

I'm not sure how Brinson got into the conversation, but he was playing hurt this year. He crushed AA last year.

[ZBTMP]

Dougie seemed to try to throw mud and hoped it stuck with overpriced, over the hill pitching and Rob Deer look a-likes.

 

No, that was Mark Attanasio. Many of the overpriced signings were Attanasio telling him to do it. Melvin was also forced to keep filling the roster with old players etc. because Attanasio wanted to compete and that was no place for unproven rookies. Also didn't help payroll was maxed out forcing us to go with cheap options that weren't all that great. Doug Melvin threw mud at a wall because Attanasio insisted on trying to compete.

 

Im not really sure when the Brewers stopped playing rookies or what unproven rookie didn't get a fair chance under Melvin. Taylor Green?

 

Melvin built a good to great offense. From 2006-2014, the Brewers were 4th in runs scored in the NL. You think there was a point in time when Doug wanted to tear that offense down and start over? Unfortunately, Melvin didn't draft/develop pitching or acquire any impactful, young pitching; so he was forced to pay a premium for it on the backend and still couldn't get enough of it as the Brewers were 4th in runs allowed over that same timeframe.

I'm struggling to believe Suppan, Wolf, Looper, Lohse, Garza, while throwing the farm at Sabathia, Grienke, and Marcum was all or even mostly Attansio.

[1992casey]

Dougie seemed to try to throw mud and hoped it stuck with overpriced, over the hill pitching and Rob Deer look a-likes.

 

No, that was Mark Attanasio. Many of the overpriced signings were Attanasio telling him to do it. Melvin was also forced to keep filling the roster with old players etc. because Attanasio wanted to compete and that was no place for unproven rookies. Also didn't help payroll was maxed out forcing us to go with cheap options that weren't all that great. Doug Melvin threw mud at a wall because Attanasio insisted on trying to compete.

I think that's an overly simplistic conspiracy theory that's a bit difficult to substantiate.

 

We do know that Mark is hands-on. But I think a more realistic picture is that the GM gives him the realistic options, and Mark chooses from them. Adding veterans and competing sooner was an option a decade ago. And adding veterans and hanging on was an option a couple of years ago. These weren't the best options, but they were still viable choices. When they stopped being viable choices, Mark endorsed the tear-down and rebuild.

[Baldkin]

Im not really sure when the Brewers stopped playing rookies or what unproven rookie didn't get a fair chance under Melvin. Taylor Green?

 

 

He immediately sprang to mind.

[MKE81]

Brinson had a 291/328 line last year in AA when he was "crushing it" in your words and Cordell almost had same OBP this year as that. But if you look at the rest of Brinson's numbers it translated to 40 doubles, 5 triples, 30HR, 110rbi, 10SB so his OPS is there as well so you're able to say he crushed it. Cordell also had injuries this year and if you do some research you'll learn what the scouts, coaches, org say about him. Which includes him hitting better than his numbers (slash line) suggest this year. He consistently had really good ABs in AA. To compare to Brinson crushing AA, over a full season this year Cordell translates to 30 doubles, 7 triples, 26HR, 95rbi, 16SB and that's with those numbers not telling the entire story of how well he actually swung the bat. I'd say that's pretty good regardless if he's 2yrs older than Brinson.

 

Barring injuries Brinson is pretty much going to be, at worst case, an average offensive player with great defense at a premium position. That means we only need 2 of 6 - Santana, Broxton, Phillips, Cordell, Ray, Clark - to pan out as being average offensively, worst case, because factoring in their defense makes them above average overall as well. I'll take those odds given the players in the mix (ie highly rated players not just run of the mills like Coulter, Taylor). Some will be a good 4th OF as well, which is also needed (add Michael Reed in that group). Stacking the OF system is nothing short of positive

[brewmann04]

here a link to a write up by a Texas ranger Writer.

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/texas-rangers/rangers/2016/09/05/milwaukee-receives-ryan-cordell-third-player-jonathan-lucroy-jeremy-jeffress-deal

[ZBTMP]

Im not really sure when the Brewers stopped playing rookies or what unproven rookie didn't get a fair chance under Melvin. Taylor Green?

 

He immediately sprang to mind.

 

Even Gamel was given the everyday first base job the day Fielder hit free agency. Not really the organization's fault he lacked maturity and defensive flexibility, and had unfortunate injuries.

[wichmae]

Domingo Santana was better in AA at age 20 than Cordell was 24. Santana is actually younger than Cordell.

Fairly certain you typed that wrong without looking up birthdates but Brinson literally just came from that AA team and was hitting pedestrian there as well. I also said profiles so not sure why youre trying to compare production. Two completely different things.

 

Nope, I looked up the birthdates, and like I said, Santana is younger than Cordell.

 

I'm not sure how Brinson got into the conversation, but he was playing hurt this year. He crushed AA last year.

Cordell played hurt this year too. They had very similar numbers in AA this year. Like I said though. Profiles.

[mrn1ceguy]

Braun must be as good as gone. To take Cordell after Brinson/Phillips and Corey Ray draft pick. Santana. Broxton. Is there a new Defensive shift I'm unaware about? 6 OFs 1 Infielder Pitcher and catcher? Maybe that's the new "Tank strategy"

 

Nothing to do with Braun. Seems more than a couple here seem to be almost upset by the number of OF in the system.

 

Why? Would it be better to get another pitcher just because he has P next to his name instead of OF? Stearns has proven he wants the best talent back in any trade, regardless of position or level.

 

Not even close to knowing if Phillips or Ray will make it. Or Clark, Coulter, or anyone else. Brinson will get a shot, but no lock that he can be quality starter. Injuries happen, and sometimes development doesn't.

 

At this stage it's still all about acquiring talent. Period. The day an OF is hitting .980 in AAA, ready for MLB and is blocked is the day I'll start worrying about too many OF.

 

The concern with getting too many OF is we only have 16 starting OF spots in the minors above rookie ball. Throw in a couple DH's and that's about as many top tier OF prospects you should be focusing on. Getting a great OF prospect and making them sit on the bench because we don't have a place for him to fit on the field is the concern. To a lesser concern, filling every one of your starting minor league spot of a given position (like OF) with top prospects allows for no room for surprise performance by players and limits your ability to promote players when they are ready for a challenge.

 

Considering we are nowhere close to maxing out available starting spots for starting pitching, 3B, 1B, or C with top tier prospects up and down the system, I would prefer focus on those positions first in trades.

[brewmann04]

My priority now is getting good Pitching for the rebuild and when they are ready to make a run.

[reillymcshane]

Cordell is a decent prospect. Nothing great, but nothing to sneeze at either. He's kind of vanilla - doesn't do anything particularly great - but he's got an overall nice skill set. It'll be interesting to see how he develops from here. He certainly needs to take a step forward if he wants to be a starter in the majors, but we'll see. His ability to play all three fields is a plus. Nothing wrong if he develops into a solid 4th OF.

 

I honestly didn't expect anything much better than Cordell - as much as I would have liked someone better. But it is what it is - just going to hope he rakes next year.

[sveumrules]

Even with what may seem like a surplus of OF prospects we are nowhere close to critical mass. Assuming no injuries I'd guess next year's OF starters will shake out something like this...

 

MLB: Braun, Broxton, Santana.

AAA: Brinson, Phillips, Cordell.

AA: Coulter, Taylor?, Davis?

A+: Ray, Clark?, Stokes?

A: Harrison, Oriomoloye, Segovia?

[FVBrewerFan]

Considering we are nowhere close to maxing out available starting spots for starting pitching, 3B, 1B, or C with top tier prospects up and down the system, I would prefer focus on those positions first in trades.

 

And that's a recipe for disaster. When you focus on a position, you're not getting the best talent. If the Indians trade went through, you would have your top catching prospect. Fortunately, they made a better trade. Two OF came back, but the overall talent recvd back is superior to the (almost) Indians trade.

 

They are in no danger of not having enough positions for top OF to play in the minors. I really can't see who is going to be riding the pines. I also don't see anyone who is blocked from moving up.

 

Nothing wrong at all with continuing to acquire the best talent possible. Once they are competitive again and need a position to fill, they will have a ton of money to spend and can easily add a player via FA or trade.

[A Swing and A Drive]

Considering we are nowhere close to maxing out available starting spots for starting pitching, 3B, 1B, or C with top tier prospects up and down the system, I would prefer focus on those positions first in trades.

 

And that's a recipe for disaster. When you focus on a position, you're not getting the best talent. If the Indians trade went through, you would have your top catching prospect. Fortunately, they made a better trade. Two OF came back, but the overall talent recvd back is superior to the (almost) Indians trade.

 

They are in no danger of not having enough positions for top OF to play in the minors. I really can't see who is going to be riding the pines. I also don't see anyone who is blocked from moving up.

 

Nothing wrong at all with continuing to acquire the best talent possible. Once they are competitive again and need a position to fill, they will have a ton of money to spend and can easily add a player via FA or trade.

 

 

Good points on just targeting the top talent at this point of the rebuild and not worrying too much about positions.

 

With that said....pitching, pitching and more pitching. You can never have enough.

 

It is SO much easier to fill an open OF spot on your roster via free agency/waiver wire, than it is to find quality pitching.

 

The Brewers have be terrible at drafting and developing 1-3 type starters for the last 30+ season. This needs to change.

[brewmann04]

I have a feeling that DS will be moving some of that talent for Pitching in the near future

[monty57]

I'm surprised that Stearns didn't get at least one teenager from the low minors in the deal. But if the worst piece is Texas' #6 prospect who looks like he has a decent shot of having an MLB career, that's not too bad.

 

This isn't "the straw that broke the camel's back," but I think the writing's on the wall that the Brewers are going to heavily shop Ryan Braun this offseason. Having a whole bunch of guys who could be average-to-good MLB players is a good thing when you are likely trading away your MVP left fielder. It will be fun to see who steps forward and grabs the positions.

[mrn1ceguy]

Even with what may seem like a surplus of OF prospects we are nowhere close to critical mass. Assuming no injuries I'd guess next year's OF starters will shake out something like this...

 

MLB: Braun, Broxton, Santana.

AAA: Brinson, Phillips, Cordell.

AA: Coulter, Taylor?, Davis?

A+: Ray, Clark?, Stokes?

A: Harrison, Oriomoloye, Segovia?

 

While not top tier prospects, where does that leave Liriano, Wren, Reed, Roache, Garcia, Rubio, Diaz, Denson? You can put Wren and Reed on the bench at MLB, Liriano on the bench in AAA (assuming he clears waivers), Roache can DH or learn 1B at AAA and scatter the other 4 on the bench across AA/A+/A. I would call that pretty full and limiting the chances for some of these others to play and possibly prove themselves at this time.

 

Add in any future possible trade of Scooter, Carter, Torres, or others and we now have to avoid OF talent unless we are ready to move on from one of our prospects we have penciled in to start. We also don't have the opportunity to try to get some buy low OF for AAA to see if they rebound or scoop up a 40-man casualty for AA.

 

While not over-flowing, I would say we are full at OF across the minors. If given the option for an equally valuable starting pitcher as the PTBNL, I would have preferred that immensely.

[splitterpfj]

1. Cordell isn't the sexy type that makes fans love the deal - but he has plenty of talent. When you get a true prospect as the third player in the deal, you know you've done a good job on the deal.

 

2. Cordell was the Rangers' #6 prospect - he is the Brewers' #18 prospect. That's a nice little indicator folks.

 

3. Stop, please, with the, "we have enough outfielders" routine. The Brewers need athletes who do baseball well, and that's what they've been getting. A big league team typically has five outfielders on it, so they need enough talent to fill five spots, not three. Guys get hurt, not every prospect makes it, someone could be moved to first base, depth is where you trade from to fill a need, so too much is never a bad idea, and finally - the Brewers have nowhere near, "too much" of anything, until they've run out of improvable space on the successful, contending MLB club they simply do not possess at this point in time.

[pacopete4]

3. Stop, please, with the, "we have enough outfielders" routine. The Brewers need athletes who do baseball well, and that's what they've been getting. A big league team typically has five outfielders on it, so they need enough talent to fill five spots, not three. Guys get hurt, not every prospect makes it, someone could be moved to first base, depth is where you trade from to fill a need, so too much is never a bad idea, and finally - the Brewers have nowhere near, "too much" of anything, until they've run out of improvable space on the successful, contending MLB club they simply do not possess at this point in time.

 

 

This. This is exactly how I feel.

[MKE81]

1. Cordell isn't the sexy type that makes fans love the deal - but he has plenty of talent. When you get a true prospect as the third player in the deal, you know you've done a good job on the deal.

 

2. Cordell was the Rangers' #6 prospect - he is the Brewers' #18 prospect. That's a nice little indicator folks.

 

3. Stop, please, with the, "we have enough outfielders" routine. The Brewers need athletes who do baseball well, and that's what they've been getting. A big league team typically has five outfielders on it, so they need enough talent to fill five spots, not three. Guys get hurt, not every prospect makes it, someone could be moved to first base, depth is where you trade from to fill a need, so too much is never a bad idea, and finally - the Brewers have nowhere near, "too much" of anything, until they've run out of improvable space on the successful, contending MLB club they simply do not possess at this point in time.

YES to all points. Cordell was Top 6-10 the past 2yrs in a Rangers system that was rated much higher than the Brewers last year and heading into this year and he's the 3rd piece of this trade and the large majority on here are complaining. I just don't understand it. He's a capable MLB CF with power/speed combo. This is exactly what Stearns wants because these guys offer versatility in the field as well as provide a max value return in trades - team's pay a premium price for up-the-middle power/speed combo players. Just like you can never have enough pitching you can never have enough players at a premium position.

[FVBrewerFan]

Considering we are nowhere close to maxing out available starting spots for starting pitching, 3B, 1B, or C with top tier prospects up and down the system, I would prefer focus on those positions first in trades.

 

And that's a recipe for disaster. When you focus on a position, you're not getting the best talent. If the Indians trade went through, you would have your top catching prospect. Fortunately, they made a better trade. Two OF came back, but the overall talent recvd back is superior to the (almost) Indians trade.

 

They are in no danger of not having enough positions for top OF to play in the minors. I really can't see who is going to be riding the pines. I also don't see anyone who is blocked from moving up.

 

Nothing wrong at all with continuing to acquire the best talent possible. Once they are competitive again and need a position to fill, they will have a ton of money to spend and can easily add a player via FA or trade.

 

 

Good points on just targeting the top talent at this point of the rebuild and not worrying too much about positions.

 

With that said....pitching, pitching and more pitching. You can never have enough.

 

It is SO much easier to fill an open OF spot on your roster via free agency/waiver wire, than it is to find quality pitching.

 

The Brewers have be terrible at drafting and developing 1-3 type starters for the last 30+ season. This needs to change.

 

I would say 99% of the posters here would agree, myself included. Thing is, it HAS been a priority since the start of the rebuild. Hader, Houser, Davies, Derby, Anderson, Ortiz, Bickford, Peralta, Supak, off the top of my head- and I know there's more. Not saying all those guys will be great MLB starters, or even make it to MLB. Just saying they have brought in a lot of pitchers via trades.

 

They have a couple more chance at top level SP. Their 2017 draft pick, and a Braun trade. Neither one of those options may even happen, but that's really the only two ways they have left in the short term.

[JohnBriggs12]

3. Stop, please, with the, "we have enough outfielders" routine. The Brewers need athletes who do baseball well, and that's what they've been getting. A big league team typically has five outfielders on it, so they need enough talent to fill five spots, not three. Guys get hurt, not every prospect makes it, someone could be moved to first base, depth is where you trade from to fill a need, so too much is never a bad idea, and finally - the Brewers have nowhere near, "too much" of anything, until they've run out of improvable space on the successful, contending MLB club they simply do not possess at this point in time.

 

 

This. This is exactly how I feel.

 

All well and good but name a successful major league team that did not have one power hitting lefty bat in the lineup somewhere? It's not so much about position as it is having a lineup that's balanced. Almost all the Brewer hitting prospects above A ball bat right handed Maybe Phillips can turn it around and be that guy and/or they can use an OF surplus to deal for a 1B, otherwise it might take the wave of Clark, Ray and Erceg to get some real pop from the left side. When will that be? 2019?

[MKE81]

This is also why Stearns loves up-the-middle power/speed guys because he knows he can get great pitching prospects for them in trades. Hader, Ortiz, Bickford all came over within the past year and all are Top 70 overall prospects. Now add Davies, who's already showing he can be a very good #4-5. Woodruff has been flying under the radar until this year. All these guys will be up within the next 2-3yrs. And over that same span there are a few guys on the current MLB roster that will be traded that can bring back Top 100 rotation arms (Braun, Villar, Thornburg). Additionally, other players that will be traded will be Scooter, at least one other OF, Perez, Carter, Nelson, Guerra, Peralta, Chase. They're sitting in a good spot right now but Stearns will continue to add arms just like he's continued to add very good OF prospects when we already have 4 in the Top 100. Plus Stearns will have 2-3 drafts over that same span as well

[FVBrewerFan]

All well and good but name a successful major league team that did not have one power hitting lefty bat in the lineup somewhere? When will that be? 2019?

 

Lots of successful teams have not had a power LH bat. Now if you mean true WS contender, yea, I can't think of any off-hand. But that's about 9 steps down the road if you're worried about balance in the line-up. That's pretty much the very last step after you have built a rotation, bullpen, and line-up capable of competing at that high of a level.

 

And yes, that could very well be 2019 or later. This will take as long as it takes.

[monty57]

3. Stop, please, with the, "we have enough outfielders" routine. The Brewers need athletes who do baseball well, and that's what they've been getting. A big league team typically has five outfielders on it, so they need enough talent to fill five spots, not three. Guys get hurt, not every prospect makes it, someone could be moved to first base, depth is where you trade from to fill a need, so too much is never a bad idea, and finally - the Brewers have nowhere near, "too much" of anything, until they've run out of improvable space on the successful, contending MLB club they simply do not possess at this point in time.

 

 

This. This is exactly how I feel.

 

All well and good but name a successful major league team that did not have one power hitting lefty bat in the lineup somewhere? It's not so much about position as it is having a lineup that's balanced. Almost all the Brewer hitting prospects above A ball bat right handed Maybe Phillips can turn it around and be that guy and/or they can use an OF surplus to deal for a 1B, otherwise it might take the wave of Clark, Ray and Erceg to get some real pop from the left side. When will that be? 2019?

 

Show me the team that's won anything when their pitching sucked. The Brewers are in rebuild mode and while they have laid a foundation to build upon, they still have multiple holes to fill. Right now, I'd rather stockpile as many talented players as they can in the minors and let the pieces sort themselves. As you mentioned, they have procured multiple LH bats in the minors, which is something they haven't had much success at in the past. Some of those guys will pan out, and once we're closer to competing, we will fill in the holes on the MLB roster through FA and/or trades.

 

All things being equal, I would have preferred a pitcher, or maybe a LH bat, or a power hitting corner IF, but all things aren't going to be equal. We had a list, and Stearns figured this was the best player on that list. I would certainly rather have a player like Cordell, who has a legitimate shot at being an MLB player, than someone who isn't that good but happens to hit LH, or be a pitcher. All in all, we ended up with three top prospects who are succeeding in AA or above and therefore should be able to help the MLB team in the not-too-distant future. That's not too bad.