Lucroy and Jeffress to the Rangers for CF Lewis Brinson, RHP Luis Ortiz, PTBNL…(Lucroy comments, post 523; PTBNL is Ryan Cordell, post 581)

[trwi7]

Interesting note. Sandy Alderson was in the booth during the game tonight on ESPN. They asked him about Lucroy and whether they were in it, he said yes and that they had a lot of discussions and that they wanted him a lot but then said something to the effect of "the other team has to have their needs filled too" which to me is basically his way of saying we weren't going to part with our top prospects and they weren't interested in d'Arnaud, Nimmo etc.

 

So it sounds like the Brewers were using their talks with the Mets as leverage for other teams but never seriously considered trading him to the Mets as long as their top prospects were off the table.

[wildcat2237]

Thanks Eyeblack.

 

Sadly, from what I hear the Brewers professional scouting team is in a bit of upheaval today.

 

The advice was not to take Gallo or Brinson. Instead, if dealing with the Rangers, the advice was to take multiple players from the lower levels. The scouting team did their work and Ryan Thompson provided Doug Melvin and Matt Arnold with a final list of 4 guys late last night, as Stearns had requested.

 

Somebody overrode this advice and said to take Brinson. So Stearns did just that. *the hunch is Doug Melvin, Mr. Texas*

 

Apparently, however, the Rangers insisted on Jeffress to do a deal. With the crazy relief market, Stearns did not want to do Jeffress for Ortiz straight up. Stearns asked for Ortiz and a PTBNL to sweeten the pot and a deal got done just in time.

 

Apparently Stearns knows who he wants as the PTBNL but will wait and let the Rangers risk the injury concern. The Brewers are no longer heavily scouting the rangers system. Those reports are in.

Wow, thanks again!

 

Regarding the last paragraph, if Stearns knows who he prefers but is going to let the Rangers assume the injury risk through the end of the season do you think that suggests he has a pitcher in mind as his top selection?

 

Not exactly.

 

What I know if that the list of 4 that went to Stearns last night was (in order of priority) 1. Yohander Mendez 2. Ronald Guzman 3. Pedro Payano 4. Ariel Jurado

[wildcat2237]

=

[splitterpfj]

They said he has bad pitch recognition and "plate awareness."

 

Apparently he reminds a lot of scouts of Rickie Weeks. Major league pitchers will recognize the pitch awareness problems and gobble him up with curves and sliders.

 

This is not the first time I've seen that opinion of Brinson.

 

I'm not saying they're exactly the same, but Brinson reminds me of Carlos Gomez, in that the physical skills are obvious, but the application of those skills gets very erratic. Last year, Brinson changed his approach, and had a fantastic season - this year, he's been back to old habits, and he had a shoulder injury.

 

Brinson is "boom or bust", for sure - Stearns taking him over Gallo makes sense to me, but I truly thought the Brewers would go a few spots lower in the rankings, and take more guys than they got.

 

If Brinson ever stays within himself, he's going to be a big star, but if he keeps getting himself out, he'll wind up a bench player.

[brewcrewdue80]

So we were Melvin'd? Or is it Doug,d?

 

We can probably assume the ptbnl is one of the four from that list. I recallsomeone likely wildcat saying Payano had caught attention of the scouts. Hes also now one of DL prospects currently.

 

Obviously the choice here among BF would be Mendez. And that would really appease me on this deal then.

[sfl2hnq17]

Thanks for the information on the process wildcat. Very illuminating and much, much appreciated.

[Thundercat32]

I don't understand the dislike for this trade. #1 it wasn't that long ago when we were concerned if Jeffress would smoke himself right out of pro baseball. He was basically waived by two other organizations before the Brewers welcomed him back. He's not a hard-throwing, elite K-rate closer. FFS, his whip since returning to Mil has been north of 1.20. Suggesting he's worth Ortiz + more prospects is insane. Just because other teams like Cleveland are overpaying for relievers doesn't mean you can expect another team to do so.

 

*Wow, just saw the post above me. Jeffress a top 30 reliever. Based on what his top 30 saves total this season? If he were a top 30 reliever (most on here are demanding a top 10 reliever ransom for him), then he'd step in and be the Rangers' closer. Dyson is a fill-in, anyways. No, a guy like Chapman is the type of dominant reliever that comes in & takes over closing duties, even when the club has an established closer already, like Rondon. I'll bet you Keone Kela slides into the 8th inning role and Jeffress is 7th inning or just depth. Or maybe Kela replaces Dyson as the closer & Jeffress is the setup man, but that would only show how dispensable Dyson is & underscore how not top 30 Jeffress is that he can't step in & replace Dyson from day 1.

 

Also, by the deadline the Rangers held the leverage with Lucroy's no-trade rights. Honestly, I feel like the Rangers overpaid. Folks that cover the Rangers talk about the days when they'd have Mazara in Right and Brinson roaming Center like they were 1 & 1A. Let's not forget Lucroy missed 50 games last year with a bad back, put up a woeful 717 OPS & turned 30 this season. Folks around here are treating him like it's the fall of 2014 and Luc doesn't have a no-trade clause in his contract.

 

It's time to focus on what's in the pipeline. The potential for Clark in LF, Brinson in CF, and Ray in RF in 2018/19; all three with the speed/skills to play CF. Orlando Arcia making his mlb debut tonight. A trio of young pitchers not too far away in Hader/Ortiz/Bickford. Plus, some big potential deeper in the system Ponce/Diplan/Medeiros/Gatewood/Phillips/etc... I haven't looked at the farm system in a minute, but this is the first time I've looked & seen this level of depth. We'll rank among the top 5, maybe top 3 farm systems in baseball next year. Plus, there's some useable pieces at the big league level still. Santana, Villar, Perez, Davies, Thornburg, Gennett. They may just be role/platoon players, maybe more for Davies & Santana, but they'll add solid depth.

 

You kinda knew after the Brewers struck out in 2011, then lost Prince, that it'd be awhile til they were contenders again. Certainly, after Greinke departed for the Dodgers. The question then was how long? A good rebuild and they'd be contenders again by the end of the decade. The front office hasn't screwed up. They've made the moves necessary to make the Brewers a contender by the end of the decade. That's about the best we could hope for.

[tigerbrew]

Anyone know if the PTBNL is another top pitching prospect? It would make me feel much better about the trade. Frankly I'm disappointed with the return, with JJ bundled into trade I wanted another top pitching prospect back at least.

 

I do like both Brinson and Ortiz, but really hope we get another top pitching prospect from the Rangers.

[narwhalattack]

Which trade would you guys have preferred?

 

1. The current trade

 

2. Mendez, Guzman, Payano, Jurado

[jjkoestler]

Which trade would you guys have preferred?

 

1. The current trade

 

2. Mendez, Guzman, Payano, Jurado

 

Current trade + 1 of the 4 as PTBNL

[Eye Black]

Which trade would you guys have preferred?

 

1. The current trade

 

2. Mendez, Guzman, Payano, Jurado

 

Current trade + 1 of the 4 as PTBNL

Without knowing for certain the identity of the PTBNL it is tough to definitively answer questions about it, but right now assuming a quality third piece is still coming I am pretty happy with the current trade.

[Thundercat32]

Anyone know if the PTBNL is another top pitching prospect? It would make me feel much better about the trade. Frankly I'm disappointed with the return, with JJ bundled into trade I wanted another top pitching prospect back at least.

 

I do like both Brinson and Ortiz, but really hope we get another top pitching prospect from the Rangers.

 

Not addressing you specifically, tigerbrew, because about 100 other people have voiced the same thing.

 

All,

 

When did Jeremy Jeffress turn into the second-coming of Mariano Rivera? The guy has a substance abuse problem. He wasn't assured of the closer's role coming into the season, for a team unlikely to make the playoffs this year. I've had him on my fantasy team all year, and I had to monitor closely whether Will Smith would snatch the role from him or not until basically June before I felt comfortable counting on him.

 

Another top pitching prospect???

 

So, like what, if the Pirates were contending this season & needed another bullpen arm, you think they'd of dealt Tyler Glasnow AND Mitch Keller for Jeffress? You're higher than Jeremy Jeffress was before his last failed drug test. Smh.

[StearnsFTW]

Thanks Eyeblack.

 

Sadly, from what I hear the Brewers professional scouting team is in a bit of upheaval today.

 

The advice was not to take Gallo or Brinson. Instead, if dealing with the Rangers, the advice was to take multiple players from the lower levels. The scouting team did their work and Ryan Thompson provided Doug Melvin and Matt Arnold with a final list of 4 guys late last night, as Stearns had requested.

 

Somebody overrode this advice and said to take Brinson. So Stearns did just that. *the hunch is Doug Melvin, Mr. Texas*

 

Apparently, however, the Rangers insisted on Jeffress to do a deal. With the crazy relief market, Stearns did not want to do Jeffress for Ortiz straight up. Stearns asked for Ortiz and a PTBNL to sweeten the pot and a deal got done just in time.

 

Apparently Stearns knows who he wants as the PTBNL but will wait and let the Rangers risk the injury concern. The Brewers are no longer heavily scouting the rangers system. Those reports are in.

Wow, thanks again!

 

Regarding the last paragraph, if Stearns knows who he prefers but is going to let the Rangers assume the injury risk through the end of the season do you think that suggests he has a pitcher in mind as his top selection?

 

Not exactly.

 

What I know if that the list of 4 that went to Stearns last night was (in order of priority) 1. Yohander Mendez 2. Ronald Guzman 3. Pedro Payano 4. Ariel Jurado

 

This deal is a grand slam for me if Mendez is the ptbnl. I'd be very happy with any of those guys if that's the list.

 

And thanks a lot for sharing all of this with us.

[agent39]

I am heartbroken and happy. Weird

[madbad2000]

I am heartbroken and happy. Weird

 

 

I think there are plenty of us in that same boat. I'll be pulling for the Rangers to win it all and hopefully Jeremy can get a ring out of it. I have fond memories of Prince and Luc, so it would be nice to see some deserving players win one.

[Schlitz001]

When did Jeremy Jeffress turn into the second-coming of Mariano Rivera? The guy has a substance abuse problem.

 

You are overemphasizing Jeffress' substance issues. Jeffress failed his last drug test in 2009. By his own admission he was using to deal with epilepsy. The Blue Jays made him get treatment, found a better medication for him and subjected him to extra drug tests. By all accounts the marijuana use is far in the past with Jeffress.

 

I agree with the rest of your assessment on this trade, but it's been over 7 years since his last drug test. I feel like he has that under control. He knows what will happen if he fails another test.

[WV Brew]

Dave Schoenfield veiw

 

Gives Texas an "A" for the trade and the Brewers a "C". Of course, we don't know the PTBN, which limits how you can really judge it. I think he gave the Will Smith deal a "B+" for both teams.

[Baldkin]

When did Jeremy Jeffress turn into the second-coming of Mariano Rivera? The guy has a substance abuse problem.

 

You are overemphasizing Jeffress' substance issues. Jeffress failed his last drug test in 2009. By his own admission he was using to deal with epilepsy. The Blue Jays made him get treatment, found a better medication for him and subjected him to extra drug tests. By all accounts the marijuana use is far in the past with Jeffress.

 

I agree with the rest of your assessment on this trade, but it's been over 7 years since his last drug test. I feel like he has that under control. He knows what will happen if he fails another test.

 

Absolutely NOTHING will happen if he fails another drug test. MLBPA does NOT suspend players for testing positive for marijuana.

[DR28]

That's fantastic news on the PTBNL... Gladly will take Mendez or Guzman, would prefer Guzman tho... Big lefty hitting 1B!

[Ennder]

If those are really the 4 choices for PTBNL I'm happy with this trade.

 

My perfect playoff scenario is now the Giants beat the Cubs with Will Smith saving a few games and then they lose to the Rangers in the World Series.

[rickh150]

 

If I told you two days ago that we'd get, in essence, Brinson and PTBNL for Lucroy, my guess is that you'd be underwhelmed. No one would have agreed to that trade from Brewerfan...... None. The consensus was two top 100 guys and change..... Not 1 and change. We all expected more. If you blame the market, so be it, but we didn't have to move him. Even a year from now, I think one team could have given us a similar package ( 1 top 100 prospect) for a few months of Lucroy.

 

Lucroy was traded to Cleveland and then not. Case closed. He plays with the team, he travels with the team. Why tip our hand by telling everyone in the world that we are NOT ONLY LOOKING to trade him today, but also his bags are packed, he's virtually said his goodbyes, and the team basically has moved on literally and figuratively from him. Even Luc said it would be "awkward" finishing the year in Milwaukee. The Rangers could now play hard ball with us. According to reports, Boy did they. Before the Cleveland trade, no pitcher included with Luc. After, Jeffress is added. Also, the Rangers knew that they could assumingly stand their ground in the last hour because it seemed like we simply were going to get rid of Luc today.

 

If you want me to give Brinson and Ortiz the A ball gold star stickers, you got it. Brinson and Ortiz get them, no question. Am I not allowed to doubt their potential based on the AA stats, physical appearance, and injury history NOW? A reminder.... We just gave up a year and a half, top 5 catcher and a controllable top 30 reliever. I would expect not only more coming back, but also fewer question marks attached to them.

 

Again, I hope at least one of them is an AllStar. Otherwise, it would seem we got taken a bit.

You seem to want to create this very heavy trade market for Lucroy with a bunch of prospect laden teams all bidding hard for Luc which simply didn't seem to exist in reality.

 

Just because lots of posters on a Brewers internet forum for months now have been coming up with a bunch of pretend trades for Lucroy, involving numerous teams where we land multiple top 100 prospects in return for him alone doesn't mean that's going to be a reality of what is available/being offered.

 

Outside of Cleveland and Texas, there didn't look to be another interested team who also had a deep farm system, and Lucroy vetoed a trade to one of those teams.

 

Maybe you should stop believing that what fans post on sports forums involving pretend trade proposals is something that real GM's actually get to work with. Not only that, just because certain prospects are rated with a number by scouting services, that doesn't mean teams and their scouts share similar positions.

 

This trade with be graded out in time based on how Brinson and/or Ortiz end up developing, not whether you think they rated high enough on various prospect lists. Same for any trade. Everyone loves the Smith trades and it could end up a bust. This is a tough business for GM's.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. Fans are not GMs, ok.

 

If the market was SO bad like you yourself write, why trade these guys now? Pretty simple, really. If Lucroy wasn't traded, Stearns could have said the market simply wasn't there at this time and he would have been no doubt applauded by DS loyalists here for not selling Lucroy short. Jeffress could have been kept for at least 3 and a half years or possibly dealt at some point or in this crazy relief pitcher market.

 

Instead, everybody and his uncle knew the trade was coming, allowing Texas to get the best upgrade, arguably, on the market and a top pen piece for two highly regarded, but still very questionable AA players not playing great now and a PTBNL. And according to previous posts, not everyone in the Brewers front office is sold on Brinson either, showing that this really isn't what we wanted. It's what we took. This trade seems forced.

 

Again, I hope one of these guys turns out to be not just good, but an All Star. If not, we will remember this trade as a flop.

[rickh150]

So we were Melvin'd? Or is it Doug,d?.

 

 

No, no........ Melvin is done taking blame (or credit). This is on DS.

[Ennder]

Lucroy and Jeffress would not have commanded this package in the offseason. Lucroy's value completely tanks after the deadline. I don't blame Stearns at all for pushing this through.

[rickh150]

I don't understand the dislike for this trade. #1 it wasn't that long ago when we were concerned if Jeffress would smoke himself right out of pro baseball. He was basically waived by two other organizations before the Brewers welcomed him back. He's not a hard-throwing, elite K-rate closer. FFS, his whip since returning to Mil has been north of 1.20. Suggesting he's worth Ortiz + more prospects is insane. Just because other teams like Cleveland are overpaying for relievers doesn't mean you can expect another team to do so.

 

*Wow, just saw the post above me. Jeffress a top 30 reliever. Based on what his top 30 saves total this season? If he were a top 30 reliever (most on here are demanding a top 10 reliever ransom for him), then he'd step in and be the Rangers' closer. Dyson is a fill-in, anyways. No, a guy like Chapman is the type of dominant reliever that comes in & takes over closing duties, even when the club has an established closer already, like Rondon. I'll bet you Keone Kela slides into the 8th inning role and Jeffress is 7th inning or just depth. Or maybe Kela replaces Dyson as the closer & Jeffress is the setup man, but that would only show how dispensable Dyson is & underscore how not top 30 Jeffress is that he can't step in & replace Dyson from day 1.

 

Also, by the deadline the Rangers held the leverage with Lucroy's no-trade rights. Honestly, I feel like the Rangers overpaid. Folks that cover the Rangers talk about the days when they'd have Mazara in Right and Brinson roaming Center like they were 1 & 1A. Let's not forget Lucroy missed 50 games last year with a bad back, put up a woeful 717 OPS & turned 30 this season. Folks around here are treating him like it's the fall of 2014 and Luc doesn't have a no-trade clause in his contract.

 

It's time to focus on what's in the pipeline. The potential for Clark in LF, Brinson in CF, and Ray in RF in 2018/19; all three with the speed/skills to play CF. Orlando Arcia making his mlb debut tonight. A trio of young pitchers not too far away in Hader/Ortiz/Bickford. Plus, some big potential deeper in the system Ponce/Diplan/Medeiros/Gatewood/Phillips/etc... I haven't looked at the farm system in a minute, but this is the first time I've looked & seen this level of depth. We'll rank among the top 5, maybe top 3 farm systems in baseball next year. Plus, there's some useable pieces at the big league level still. Santana, Villar, Perez, Davies, Thornburg, Gennett. They may just be role/platoon players, maybe more for Davies & Santana, but they'll add solid depth.

 

You kinda knew after the Brewers struck out in 2011, then lost Prince, that it'd be awhile til they were contenders again. Certainly, after Greinke departed for the Dodgers. The question then was how long? A good rebuild and they'd be contenders again by the end of the decade. The front office hasn't screwed up. They've made the moves necessary to make the Brewers a contender by the end of the decade. That's about the best we could hope for.

 

 

I too like the direction of the team, and DS has done fine work overall. I just question this trade. Another top arm or bat in the PTBNL would surely help though.

[pacopete4]

So we were Melvin'd? Or is it Doug,d?.

 

 

No, no........ Melvin is done taking blame (or credit). This is on DS.

 

 

People act like Melvin only made bad decisions. If I remember right both Weeks and Gomez were very good MLB players.