Lucroy and Jeffress to the Rangers for CF Lewis Brinson, RHP Luis Ortiz, PTBNL…(Lucroy comments, post 523; PTBNL is Ryan Cordell, post 581)

[Ennder]

If the final selection is a another top prospect I'm fine with this deal, it seems pretty fair. If it is some lottery ticket guy I think we got a little bit too little. Regardless I think the days deals combined were overall a plus.

[adambr2]

'He said parameters were established with the Rangers to allow time for the Brewers to scout certain players in their farm system and make a selection that likely will be another top prospect.'

 

Tom H sounds optimistic that the PTBNL will be another big piece, not a lottery ticket or throw in...

 

I wonder how long until the potential names start to leak. Top prospect seems quite descriptive. Who would fit that bill that isn't Gallo? Mendez or Ibanez?

 

I'm guessing it will be Ibanez or Guzman. Mendez wold be amazing, but if he was on the table as the 3rd piece, I think we'd probably be taking him now, not as a PTBNL.

[jerichoholicninja]

I was reading through a Facebook friends post about the trade and, of course, most of the commenters know or understand nothing about how baseball works but the guy that took the cake was the one complaining that Mark A is your typical, cheap Brewer owner who only made the trade to save money. I thought about responding to that for about two seconds before I decided it wasn't worth my time or sanity.

[FVBrewerFan]

Please make it stop. Even if Gallo COULD legally be the ptbnl it makes no sense. If it's Gallo, he would have been player named, not ptbnl.

[wibadgers23]

Would love to see either Guzman or Jurado as the PTBNL, ranked #5 and #8 in Rangers system after today's trades.

[Eye Black]

#Brewers GM David Stearns said on @620wtmj that parameters were established to allow them to scout Texas prospects and make PTBN selection.

I think this was a keen approach on the Brewers part. Instead of commiting to a third player today you have time to let your scouting staff fully vet through the options. Not to mention you will have more information in September than you do today. Also possible that one or more of the players on the list are recovering from injury.

[FVBrewerFan]

I was reading through a Facebook friends post about the trade and, of course, most of the commenters know or understand nothing about how baseball works but the guy that took the cake was the one complaining that Mark A is your typical, cheap Brewer owner who only made the trade to save money. I thought about responding to that for about two seconds before I decided it wasn't worth my time or sanity.

 

Or as my wife put it, "Why did they trade 3 really good guys for a bunch of rookies?!?!" Needless to say, she was even more bummed when I explained actually they're not even rookies yet. "Next year?" she asked hopefully. Nope.

[MoreTrife]

I was reading through a Facebook friends post about the trade and, of course, most of the commenters know or understand nothing about how baseball works but the guy that took the cake was the one complaining that Mark A is your typical, cheap Brewer owner who only made the trade to save money. I thought about responding to that for about two seconds before I decided it wasn't worth my time or sanity.

 

Or as my wife put it, "Why did they trade 3 really good guys for a bunch of rookies?!?!" Needless to say, she was even more bummed when I explained actually they're not even rookies yet. "Next year?" she asked hopefully. Nope.

 

Haha good stuff.

[logan82]

So a quick perusal of Cot's and the internet and the parameters for PTBNL are

1. Must be available to be traded at time of trade.(Trea Turner Rule)

2. Trade must be completed withing 6 months

3. May not be an active Major League player during the interval between the trade and the date the player is named

4. A player on a minor-league reserve list may not be traded between November 20 and the Rule 5 draft in December, so trades during that window may include a PTBNL.(This seems to contradict rule #1 so I am not really sure about this one, not that it really applies in this situation anyway)

 

Player To Be Named Later

A transaction including a player to be named later must be completed within six months. The player may not be an active Major League player during the interval between the trade and the date the player is named. As a result, most players to be named later are minor leaguers.

 

At the time of a trade, clubs sometimes agree on a list of players from which the player to be named will be selected. They also may agree on an amount of money to be exchanged in lieu of a player.

 

Clubs may include a player to be named later in a trade if a player is not eligible to be traded. For example, once a draft pick signs a professional contract, he may not be traded until an entire year has elapsed (the Pete Incaviglia Rule). Additionally, a player on a minor-league reserve list may not be traded between November 20 and the Rule 5 draft in December, so trades during that window may include a PTBNL.

[StearnsFTW]

Mendez

Taveras

Guzman

Jurado

Martin

 

In that order for me. Any of those guys would be fantastic.

 

Then there's 6 or 7 other guys I'd be happy with too.

 

Of course I was thrilled before I even knew there was a ptbnl, so........

[FVBrewerFan]

Is it confirmed Brinson is going to CS instead of Biloxi?

[dlk9s]

3. May not be an active Major League player during the interval between the trade and the date the player is named

I wonder if there's ever been a time where a team knew its trade partner was interested in a particular player as the PTBNL (either because they collaborated on a list or because they just knew), but then promoted him to the big league club before he was named to prevent him from being traded.

 

I'm guessing not, as it would become known that they did it and then nobody would want to deal with them, but it would be pretty fascinating if it happened.

[yoyo49]

Is it confirmed Brinson is going to CS instead of Biloxi?

 

Yes per Rosiak

[Eye Black]

I think it is safe to say wildcat2237 ran away with the "BF.net Insider of the Deadline" award. I tried to thoroughly catch-up on the 21 pages in this thread and did not see anyone re-list the players that wildcat's friend was questioned about yesterday morning (I may have missed it). If not, below are the players from the original post, and while it is never safe to assume it at least seems possible that the eventual PTBNL is somewhere on that list. My first guess was Payano for reasons already stated previously regarding his injury status, but there are other guys on that list worth getting excited about.

 

I talked to my Brewers scout friend again this afternoon. He scouted the Rangers system for a good two weeks. This morning his superior called and asked for more info on Yohander Mendez, Pedro Payano, Andy Ibanez, Josh Morgan, Ariel Jurado, Leody Taveras, and Ronald Guzman.

[StearnsFTW]

I think it is safe to say wildcat2237 ran away with the "BF.net Insider of the Deadline" award. I tried to thoroughly catch-up on the 21 pages in this thread and did not see anyone re-list the players that wildcat's friend was questioned about yesterday morning (I may have missed it). If not, below are the players from the original post, and while it is never safe to assume it at least seems possible that the eventual PTBNL is somewhere on that list. My first guess was Payano for reasons already stated previously regarding his injury status, but there are other guys on that list worth getting excited about.

 

I talked to my Brewers scout friend again this afternoon. He scouted the Rangers system for a good two weeks. This morning his superior called and asked for more info on Yohander Mendez, Pedro Payano, Andy Ibanez, Josh Morgan, Ariel Jurado, Leody Taveras, and Ronald Guzman.

 

Pretty much all of them are worth getting excited about. Except maybe Morgan.

[rickh150]

Seems like we should have gotten more.... Even those here that praise the deal wanted WAY more than this and have posted wish lists that included WAY more for JUST Lucroy. For whatever reason, some refuse to be critical of DS even in the slightest. Uh.... it's ok to be underwhelmed here a bit and still like DS and the direction of the team.

 

Also, it seems like we were dealing from a place of disadvantage because Texas, along with everyone else in the baseball world, figured Lucroy was being dealt because of the debacle yesterday. Lucroy wasn't even with the team today.... Talk about showing your hand.

 

It's very difficult to be excited about a fat AA pitcher in the 4's ERA and a somewhat injure prone AA .240 hitter who strikes out. We are banking on a lot of things to go right to justify giving up a 31 year leader, All star catcher, and our closer who could have been an Allstar this year, who has 3 and a half years of control left. To me, the Indians deal was a little better. These two top 100 players we received also appear to be trending down with so so years.

 

I really like the Smith trade.... Can't say the same here. One of the two really, really have to perform well (All Star) to make this trade a good one. Let's hope one does....

 

Of course it seems we should have gotten more - when almost everyone offers unrealistic proposals and you see the actual return it's underwhelming. I said earlier this afternoon, based on Lucroy to CLE and Smith's trade, that if we're offering Lucroy/Jeffress we should net Gallo (because his name was in every rumor so assumed it was him instead of Brinson) + Mendoza or Ortiz + whoever else is added. I wasn't referring to 5 guys added. I was expecting 2. Which leads me to believe the 1 coming back will be a legit prospect. I thought that was realistic and a very good trade then and I still do - I think it could be a great trade depending on who the PTBNL is. Nobody should be critical of Stearns as of yet. He's literally done nothing to warrant any criticism in my opinion (some will disagree).

 

Lucroy wasn't playing today because the deadline was this afternoon and other teams already gave offers the day before. So if one offer falls through then there's still interest from the other team's. Lucroy not traveling to SD has no barring on anyone's thoughts or strategy. Everyone knew he was on the trade block still because he was literally just traded 30hrs ago to CLE.

 

Ortiz a fat pitcher with 4 ERA in AA. Feel free to disregard his 1.74 ERA in A (18/19yrs old and 3yrs young for level) and 2.6 ERA in A+ the first half of this season (20yrs old and 3yrs younger than competition). Or the fact he barely walks anyone with 8.3 K/9 rate. In 6 of his 9 starts at AA he's posting a 28ip, 26h, 8er, 7bb, 26K (2.57 ERA). He's pitching just fine and still learning/growing.

 

As a 20yr old Brinson destroyed A ball. As a 21yr old he destroyed A+ then had a very solid AA then a brief AAA stint destroying it then posted a 300/408/983 line in AFL. Posted massive numbers across the board last year at several levels. This year he's injured, as everyone's said, which is affecting his performance. It doesn't change his tools. He's a legit defensive CF as well - this year he's still playing AA at almost 2yrs younger for the level.

 

 

If I told you two days ago that we'd get, in essence, Brinson and PTBNL for Lucroy, my guess is that you'd be underwhelmed. No one would have agreed to that trade from Brewerfan...... None. The consensus was two top 100 guys and change..... Not 1 and change. We all expected more. If you blame the market, so be it, but we didn't have to move him. Even a year from now, I think one team could have given us a similar package ( 1 top 100 prospect) for a few months of Lucroy.

 

Lucroy was traded to Cleveland and then not. Case closed. He plays with the team, he travels with the team. Why tip our hand by telling everyone in the world that we are NOT ONLY LOOKING to trade him today, but also his bags are packed, he's virtually said his goodbyes, and the team basically has moved on literally and figuratively from him. Even Luc said it would be "awkward" finishing the year in Milwaukee. The Rangers could now play hard ball with us. According to reports, Boy did they. Before the Cleveland trade, no pitcher included with Luc. After, Jeffress is added. Also, the Rangers knew that they could assumingly stand their ground in the last hour because it seemed like we simply were going to get rid of Luc today.

 

If you want me to give Brinson and Ortiz the A ball gold star stickers, you got it. Brinson and Ortiz get them, no question. Am I not allowed to doubt their potential based on the AA stats, physical appearance, and injury history NOW? A reminder.... We just gave up a year and a half, top 5 catcher and a controllable top 30 reliever. I would expect not only more coming back, but also fewer question marks attached to them.

 

Again, I hope at least one of them is an AllStar. Otherwise, it would seem we got taken a bit.

[wildcat2237]

\

[QuevedosTongue]

Jeffress - controllable, yes. Top 30, that's a bit of a stretch. He's had a nice year, but he's not that good.

[danzig6767]

If the final selection is a another top prospect I'm fine with this deal, it seems pretty fair. If it is some lottery ticket guy I think we got a little bit too little. Regardless I think the days deals combined were overall a plus.

Stearns looked to be running out of realistic trade partners for Lucroy if he wanted to get a deal done before the deadline.

 

Granted there was some leverage in that Texas wanted Lucroy and Jeffress for their playoff desires, but had they backed out, it was hard to see another team which Stearns could have gotten this level of prospects in return.

 

We all wanted this massive return for Lucroy in the weeks leading up to the deadline, but for whatever reason it sure seems like only Texas and Cleveland possessed both the interest in Lucroy and had the level of prospects which Stearns desired. So once Luc vetoed the Cleveland trade, it looks like it came down to either get a trade done with Texas or hold on to Lucroy until the offseason.

 

I'm pretty good with how things ended up, but out of pure curiosity though, i do wonder what Stearns could have gotten for Jeffress alone had he not been in this trade and shopped to all teams.

[Ennder]

 

If I told you two days ago that we'd get, in essence, Brinson and PTBNL for Lucroy, my guess is that you'd be underwhelmed. No one would have agreed to that trade from Brewerfan...... None. The consensus was two top 100 guys and change..... Not 1 and change. We all expected more. If you blame the market, so be it, but we didn't have to move him. Even a year from now, I think one team could have given us a similar package ( 1 top 100 prospect) for a few months of Lucroy.

 

Lucroy was traded to Cleveland and then not. Case closed. He plays with the team, he travels with the team. Why tip our hand by telling everyone in the world that we are NOT ONLY LOOKING to trade him today, but also his bags are packed, he's virtually said his goodbyes, and the team basically has moved on literally and figuratively from him. Even Luc said it would be "awkward" finishing the year in Milwaukee. The Rangers could now play hard ball with us. According to reports, Boy did they. Before the Cleveland trade, no pitcher included with Luc. After, Jeffress is added. Also, the Rangers knew that they could assumingly stand their ground in the last hour because it seemed like we simply were going to get rid of Luc today.

 

If you want me to give Brinson and Ortiz the A ball gold star stickers, you got it. Brinson and Ortiz get them, no question. Am I not allowed to doubt their potential based on the AA stats, physical appearance, and injury history NOW? A reminder.... We just gave up a year and a half, top 5 catcher and a controllable top 30 reliever. I would expect not only more coming back, but also fewer question marks attached to them.

 

Again, I hope at least one of them is an AllStar. Otherwise, it would seem we got taken a bit.

 

If the PTBNL was a good prospect I'd have been 100% fine with this deal. It is the Jeffress straight up for the other guy that is my hiccup.

[Eye Black]

Thanks Eyeblack.

 

Sadly, from what I hear the Brewers professional scouting team is in a bit of upheaval today.

 

The advice was not to take Gallo or Brinson. Instead, if dealing with the Rangers, the advice was to take multiple players from the lower levels. The scouting team did their work and Ryan Thompson provided Doug Melvin and Matt Arnold with a final list of 4 guys late last night, as Stearns had requested.

 

Somebody overrode this advice and said to take Brinson. So Stearns did just that. *the hunch is Doug Melvin, Mr. Texas*

 

Apparently, however, the Rangers insisted on Jeffress to do a deal. With the crazy relief market, Stearns did not want to do Jeffress for Ortiz straight up. Stearns asked for Ortiz and a PTBNL to sweeten the pot and a deal got done just in time.

 

Apparently Stearns knows who he wants as the PTBNL but will wait and let the Rangers risk the injury concern. The Brewers are no longer heavily scouting the rangers system. Those reports are in.

Wow, thanks again!

 

Regarding the last paragraph, if Stearns knows who he prefers but is going to let the Rangers assume the injury risk through the end of the season do you think that suggests he has a pitcher in mind as his top selection?

[logan82]

Yeah Lucroy for one guy and Jeffress for one guy still seems like kind of a weak return considering the Cleveland and SF deals. If the third guy is significant this deal looks a lot better. I don't hate the deal but i am a little disappointed.

 

Overall I am still pretty happy with the direction things are going. Miles better than June 2015.

[brewerfan82]

I look at it as a top 100 SP for Jeffress and a top 25 player + for Lucroy. If that plus ends up being an organizational top 10/fringe top 100 player, I'm pretty happy with the deal. The Cleveland deal would have had a few fringe top 100 players that may have moved into the top 100 soon, but I'm really happy grabbing an elite talent in this deal. Just hoping the PTBNL turns out to be significant to seal the deal.

 

It would have been nice to have another nugget or two thrown into this deal, but we got the top talent that's even more important. The Hills and Seguras of the world aren't going to land us a top 25 player. Our trades of role player types in other deals are filling in those nugget players throughout the minors nicely already. It was nice grabbing the talented bat and upper echelon arms today.

[MoreTrife]

 

Thanks Eyeblack.

 

Sadly, from what I hear the Brewers professional scouting team is in a bit of upheaval today.

 

The advice was not to take Gallo or Brinson. Instead, if dealing with the Rangers, the advice was to take multiple players from the lower levels. The scouting team did their work and Ryan Thompson provided Doug Melvin and Matt Arnold with a final list of 4 guys late last night, as Stearns had requested.

 

Somebody overrode this advice and said to take Brinson. So Stearns did just that. *the hunch is Doug Melvin, Mr. Texas*

 

Apparently, however, the Rangers insisted on Jeffress to do a deal. With the crazy relief market, Stearns did not want to do Jeffress for Ortiz straight up. Stearns asked for Ortiz and a PTBNL to sweeten the pot and a deal got done just in time.

 

Apparently Stearns knows who he wants as the PTBNL but will wait and let the Rangers risk the injury concern. The Brewers are no longer heavily scouting the rangers system. Those reports are in.

 

Wildcat, able to share why they advised against Brinson?

[danzig6767]

 

If I told you two days ago that we'd get, in essence, Brinson and PTBNL for Lucroy, my guess is that you'd be underwhelmed. No one would have agreed to that trade from Brewerfan...... None. The consensus was two top 100 guys and change..... Not 1 and change. We all expected more. If you blame the market, so be it, but we didn't have to move him. Even a year from now, I think one team could have given us a similar package ( 1 top 100 prospect) for a few months of Lucroy.

 

Lucroy was traded to Cleveland and then not. Case closed. He plays with the team, he travels with the team. Why tip our hand by telling everyone in the world that we are NOT ONLY LOOKING to trade him today, but also his bags are packed, he's virtually said his goodbyes, and the team basically has moved on literally and figuratively from him. Even Luc said it would be "awkward" finishing the year in Milwaukee. The Rangers could now play hard ball with us. According to reports, Boy did they. Before the Cleveland trade, no pitcher included with Luc. After, Jeffress is added. Also, the Rangers knew that they could assumingly stand their ground in the last hour because it seemed like we simply were going to get rid of Luc today.

 

If you want me to give Brinson and Ortiz the A ball gold star stickers, you got it. Brinson and Ortiz get them, no question. Am I not allowed to doubt their potential based on the AA stats, physical appearance, and injury history NOW? A reminder.... We just gave up a year and a half, top 5 catcher and a controllable top 30 reliever. I would expect not only more coming back, but also fewer question marks attached to them.

 

Again, I hope at least one of them is an AllStar. Otherwise, it would seem we got taken a bit.

You seem to want to create this very heavy trade market for Lucroy with a bunch of prospect laden teams all bidding hard for Luc which simply didn't seem to exist in reality.

 

Just because lots of posters on a Brewers internet forum for months now have been coming up with a bunch of pretend trades for Lucroy, involving numerous teams where we land multiple top 100 prospects in return for him alone doesn't mean that's going to be a reality of what is available/being offered.

 

Outside of Cleveland and Texas, there didn't look to be another interested team who also had a deep farm system, and Lucroy vetoed a trade to one of those teams.

 

Maybe you should stop believing that what fans post on sports forums involving pretend trade proposals is something that real GM's actually get to work with. Not only that, just because certain prospects are rated with a number by scouting services, that doesn't mean teams and their scouts share similar positions.

 

This trade with be graded out in time based on how Brinson and/or Ortiz end up developing, not whether you think they rated high enough on various prospect lists. Same for any trade. Everyone loves the Smith trades and it could end up a bust. This is a tough business for GM's.