Lucroy and Jeffress to the Rangers for CF Lewis Brinson, RHP Luis Ortiz, PTBNL…(Lucroy comments, post 523; PTBNL is Ryan Cordell, post 581)

[fondybrewfan]

So Top 5 farm system for sure now right? That was pretty quick ascent from probably one of the 3 worst systems before the 2014 draft.

[And That]

If I am correct, a PTBNL must be eligible to be traded when the actual trade takes place. Since 2016 draft picks are ineligible to be traded now, they cannot be the person designated as the PTBNL.

You're right. My brain is mush. I'm done.

[wildcat2237]

.

[I Heart Brewers]

Thanks wildcat. Great stuff.

[MilwaukeeBeers]

If I am correct, a PTBNL must be eligible to be traded when the actual trade takes place. Since 2016 draft picks are ineligible to be traded now, they cannot be the person designated as the PTBNL.

You're right. My brain is mush. I'm done.

Is it possible none of us fully grasp the TT rule? I mean, Rosiak on twitter was saying it's a good bet that it's a player from this draft. I don't think that's possible from my understanding.

[Sixto]

^^^^^^

Good enough for me

[gregmag]

[ It's not about 2 highly ranked players vs 1 ranked and 4 lower-level lottery tickets, it's about the fact that X% of ranked prospects don't pan out and that risk needs to be offset by additional quantity.

 

Luc is one of the most valuable players in the game. Two prospects, no matter how highly ranked, isn't going to do it even if it is just for 1.4 years of service time.

 

I understand where you are coming from but I completely disagree, actually it's about a quantity of quality prospects. I've beat on the Overbay trade so many times but I'll use it as an example again. At the time of the trade so many people including myself thought we cleaned up because the Brewers got 2 first round picks and 1 second round pick, but the players were actually nothing special: A back of the rotation pitcher, a never was pitcher, and a 4th outfielder. It was amazing how quickly my opinion of that trade turned completely around as I realized the MLB draft at that time wasn't about talent as much as it was signability. The scouting reports were so underwhelming I was wondering why the Brewers didn't target Marcum or McGowan who were much better prospects, and Marcum was similarly close to MLB as Bush. It was a classic Melvin "mlb piece" trade, and the more I read and learned, the more I despised those quantity deals, and they have become the antitheses of my organization building philosophy.

 

You can have 20 Darren Fords in your organization but none of them will ever be Lorenzo Cain, 4 and 5 tool talents are pretty rare and those players simply are not physically gifted enough to reach those heights.

 

Prospects do absolutely fail, as do many flash in the pan MLB players, so the trick is to mitigate the risk with multiple impact prospects, an organization like Milwaukee can't throw them away buying short term solutions because the Brewers don't possess the financial resources to plug the holes left behind with talented Free Agents. Instead of having 1 or 2 pitchers that could be top of the rotation types we need to have 5 or 6 because surely some fail and/or get injured, and we need to continually develop our own top of the rotation pitching.

 

The problem with the Brewers is that there's only ever been 1 stud pitching prospect at a time so when they get hurt or flame out, there's nothing left. Melvin blamed Rogers and Jones' injuries for the reason the Brewers had a bad rotation, but it was actually the lack of projectable arms which was the issue. The Brewers have never been good enough developing pitching to be able to count on such limited numbers of true prospects. We need 5-6 legitimate top of the rotation starting pitchers scattered through the minors at any given time and we aren't there yet, even after today. If you have 10 Dave Bush type pitchers in your organization you can probably field a full rotation or close to it out of that 10 by the time they reach MLB, but that rotation isn't going to win you a championship nor is that group filthy enough to provide shut down relievers.

 

If Hader and Bickford fail as starters we're almost assured of quality relievers, in relief Bush type pitchers are nothing more than cannon fodder middle relief.

 

The Brewers have a ton of CF depth now which I think is awesome, I would love to have a similarly athletic outfield as the Pirates currently do. I get people want true corner outfields but I've been chasing pitching and more dynamic athletes for a long time and now we have a GM with a similar philosophy. I care less about HRs than I do about run prevention, get on a base and good things will happen.

Because I vocally disagree with you a lot (and silently disagree with you more than that), I just want to say that I strongly agree with everything you said here, and IMHO you said it all very well. We don't have anybody in the system who projects as Trout or Kershaw, but we now have a bunch of guys who have a chance to be stars, frontline players on a championship team. Like you, I love the glut of athletic CFs, especially because most of them seem to combine athletic tools with solid-to-advanced OBP approaches.

[TURBO]

I have a silly question, but what does TOR stand for?

 

Also, is there any chance, even a small one that because Luc was a member of the lowly small market Milwaukee Brewers, he didn't generate as much excitement and trade return as if he was in a larger market? Not saying that is the case, but if so, MLB are in for some change in how they deal with us with David Stearns at the helm.

[narwhalattack]

I have a silly question, but what does TOR stand for?

 

Also, is there any chance, even a small one that because Luc was a member of the lowly small market Milwaukee Brewers, he didn't generate as much excitement and trade return as if he was in a larger market? Not saying that is the case, but if so, MLB are in for some change in how they deal with us with David Stearns at the helm.

Top of the rotation.

[MilwaukeesBest]

I have a silly question, but what does TOR stand for?

 

Top of Rotation

[adambr2]

Brinson is great as a centerpiece. I did want Gallo, but Brinson has just as much upside, just a more diverse skill set.

 

Brinson has not been very good this year, but he's been battling a sore shoulder. Bet he bounces back next year.

 

He also probably wouldn't be available if he was putting up a 1.000 OPS again.

[TigerUppercut]

[ It's not about 2 highly ranked players vs 1 ranked and 4 lower-level lottery tickets, it's about the fact that X% of ranked prospects don't pan out and that risk needs to be offset by additional quantity.

 

Luc is one of the most valuable players in the game. Two prospects, no matter how highly ranked, isn't going to do it even if it is just for 1.4 years of service time.

 

I understand where you are coming from but I completely disagree, actually it's about a quantity of quality prospects. I've beat on the Overbay trade so many times but I'll use it as an example again. At the time of the trade so many people including myself thought we cleaned up because the Brewers got 2 first round picks and 1 second round pick, but the players were actually nothing special: A back of the rotation pitcher, a never was pitcher, and a 4th outfielder. It was amazing how quickly my opinion of that trade turned completely around as I realized the MLB draft at that time wasn't about talent as much as it was signability. The scouting reports were so underwhelming I was wondering why the Brewers didn't target Marcum or McGowan who were much better prospects, and Marcum was similarly close to MLB as Bush. It was a classic Melvin "mlb piece" trade, and the more I read and learned, the more I despised those quantity deals, and they have become the antitheses of my organization building philosophy.

 

You can have 20 Darren Fords in your organization but none of them will ever be Lorenzo Cain, 4 and 5 tool talents are pretty rare and those players simply are not physically gifted enough to reach those heights.

 

Prospects do absolutely fail, as do many flash in the pan MLB players, so the trick is to mitigate the risk with multiple impact prospects, an organization like Milwaukee can't throw them away buying short term solutions because the Brewers don't possess the financial resources to plug the holes left behind with talented Free Agents. Instead of having 1 or 2 pitchers that could be top of the rotation types we need to have 5 or 6 because surely some fail and/or get injured, and we need to continually develop our own top of the rotation pitching.

 

The problem with the Brewers is that there's only ever been 1 stud pitching prospect at a time so when they get hurt or flame out, there's nothing left. Melvin blamed Rogers and Jones' injuries for the reason the Brewers had a bad rotation, but it was actually the lack of projectable arms which was the issue. The Brewers have never been good enough developing pitching to be able to count on such limited numbers of true prospects. We need 5-6 legitimate top of the rotation starting pitchers scattered through the minors at any given time and we aren't there yet, even after today. If you have 10 Dave Bush type pitchers in your organization you can probably field a full rotation or close to it out of that 10 by the time they reach MLB, but that rotation isn't going to win you a championship nor is that group filthy enough to provide shut down relievers.

 

If Hader and Bickford fail as starters we're almost assured of quality relievers, in relief Bush type pitchers are nothing more than cannon fodder middle relief.

 

The Brewers have a ton of CF depth now which I think is awesome, I would love to have a similarly athletic outfield as the Pirates currently do. I get people want true corner outfields but I've been chasing pitching and more dynamic athletes for a long time and now we have a GM with a similar philosophy. I care less about HRs than I do about run prevention, get on a base and good things will happen.

Because I vocally disagree with you a lot (and silently disagree with you more than that), I just want to say that I strongly agree with everything you said here, and IMHO you said it all very well. We don't have anybody in the system who projects as Trout or Kershaw, but we now have a bunch of guys who have a chance to be stars, frontline players on a championship team. Like you, I love the glut of athletic CFs, especially because most of them seem to combine athletic tools with solid-to-advanced OBP approaches.

 

I think I missed where you disagreed with TheCrew.

[TURBO]

ahhhh, top of rotation... Thanks guys!

 

[StearnsFTW]

Trade Deadline threads:

 

Bringing out the worst in BF.net since 2001.

 

?

 

Pretty darn good discussion if you ask me.

 

You must have just skipped all the posts calling other posters stupid or saying "you don't understand baseball" and calling Stearns an idiot.

 

There aren't any posts like that in this thread. Must've been deleted.

[adambr2]

If we're having to repeat this process again next year, I could see Braun, Thornburg, Nelson, and Guerra all being major trade chips. Maybe Villar.

[fondybrewfan]

For all we know Texas was the one who wanted to include Gallo and Stearns said thanks but no thanks. Maybe one of the most controversial prospects in recent memory; Brewers scouts might have told him to stay the heck away.

 

Really excited to add Ortiz and Bickford to Hader, Ponce, Medeiros, Woodruff, Lopez, etc. At least 3 of those guys have to turn out right?

[Sixto]

I have a silly question, but what does TOR stand for?

 

Also, is there any chance, even a small one that because Luc was a member of the lowly small market Milwaukee Brewers, he didn't generate as much excitement and trade return as if he was in a larger market? Not saying that is the case, but if so, MLB are in for some change in how they deal with us with David Stearns at the helm.

 

Talent is talent - peoples jobs depend on finding it - even if it's in Milwaukee Pitching just happens to be the flavor of the day

 

I do believe there is a bit of "small market team can't keep him so let's force a good deal" but thats about it

[Eye Black]

Will add some more relevant thoughts to the discussion later, but in the words of Ice Cube, "today was a good day."

[FVBrewerFan]

If we're having to repeat this process again next year, I could see Braun, Thornburg, Nelson, and Guerra all being major trade chips. Maybe Villar.

 

I think Braun is a tough deadline guy to trade with that contract. That's better done in the off-season. But the others, yea, they definitely could be big chips.

[recte44]

Not saying I'd prefer Gallo or Brinson (not sure, frankly), but people complaining about Gallo's performance are sure overlooking Brinson's awful season.

Injury related. No need to panic given his performance last year at the AA level.

 

Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk

[K DUB]

It's so hard for box scores and stats to show how good someone is at defense. Brinson is an elite defensive player. Plays shallow and gets great reads. Mike Cameron comparison. Arcia/Brinson great combination.

[logan82]

I like this trade. I am not sure I like it better than the trade we had in place with Cleveland. It is tough to say what Jeffress' added to the trade or what he would have brought back if added to the Cleveland trade. I would say for sure this one is better but I think I like it.

[Brewcrewin07]

And after the Will Smith trade...Stearns gets taken to the cleaners. How the Heck do you trade BOTH Lucroy and Jeffress and not get Gallo included too?? If Stearns had a chance to take him...but another lessor prospect..well...Break this down individually...Will Smith ALONE brought back SF's #1 organizational prospect, PLUS a Catcher..said prospect is rated #63. Now, going one for one..Jeremy Jeffress brought you Ortiz..the #65 prospect. So, all you got for Lucroy was the #21 prospect?? You traded an All Star Catcher for an OFer...Tradfng both of these guys should have been these two PLUS Gallo. Stearns panicked. I'm not sure this is even better than cleveland's deal when you figure the Brewers were getting that for Lucroy alone..Loved the Smith deal..he gets an "A" from me on that one..but sorry to say, he gets an "F", on this one..that isn't NEARLY enough value for an all star Catcher and a bullpen arm under team control till 2020. he had plenty of time to trade Jeffress in the upcoming years. Overall grade for the two trades today... D

[K DUB]

My understanding is the rangers wanted to trade Gallo and we wanted Brinson. It's the reason we went with the Indians.

[Sixto]

I like this trade. I am not sure I like it better than the trade we had in place with Cleveland. It is tough to say what Jeffress' added to the trade or what he would have brought back if added to the Cleveland trade. I would say for sure this one is better but I think I like it.

 

I'll be watching, but I think that Mejia is trouble. I think we dodged a bullet there.