Lucroy Trades/Proposals (part 4)

[DougJonesChangeUp]

We'll be lucky to get Zimmer or Frazier. Indians will fight that, probably would kill the trade before including either of them... it'd become a negative for both GMs if no deal happens.

[MadThinker88]

1B-Bobby Bradley, RHP-Brady Aiken, RHP-Mike Clevinger (I'd prefer Clevinger)

LHP-Rob Kaminsky OR LHP-Juan Hillman (I'd prefer Kaminsky)

 

Can I ask why you prefer the lower ceiling players in these two spots? Kaminsky is likely a BOR starter and Clevinger is most likely a MOR type guy while Aiken has ace potential, Bradley has middle of the order power bat potential and Hillman is a "get him before he blows up" type prospect. We have more than enough Kaminsky and Clevinger types in this system already. Honestly, I don't see any major difference is between Zach Davies and those two and we got Davies for 3 months of Gerardo Parra, not 1.5 years of Jonathan Lucroy. I mean, Kaminsky got traded straight up for Brandon Moss just last year.

 

I agree. Give me Aiken, Sheffield, Mckenzie, Mejia, Hillman. And the choice of SS Chang OR SS Krieger and we give em Lucroy, Jeffress and choice of Kyle Wren or Victor Roache. They get to keep Zimmer and Frazier.

 

Done Deal.

 

No deal. Tribe will not strip mine every top starting pitcher it has under the AA level for that package. Maybe if the names of Jorge Lopez and Josh Hader were used instead of Wren and Roache the phone is not slammed down..

[MKE81]

Cleveland should be looking longterm in the playoffs. If they make it to the World Series, how do they expect to compete throwing out a lineup with 2 black holes including their pitcher slot? The fit is too perfect. Cleveland is getting an All Star catcher for 2 playoff runs. I'm pulling for the Indians. Not a time to be cheap

Agree with this. Nabbing Lucroy now gives them 2 playoff runs with an elite catcher and if they extend him even more. They have Brantley, Naquin in OF for future so maybe they don't want to part with either Frazier or Zimmer and that's what Steans might be pushing for. I doubt the Indians are refusing to part with Bradley, McKenzie (maybe), Mejia, Hillman. I'd give up Lucroy/Smith for that. Could add another prospect too but that's 2 great prospects each for Lucroy and Smith. 3 Top 100 (McKenzie will be) + Hillman and such and as a bonus all happen to fill a need in the system as well

[splitterpfj]

I really don't think we are getting Bradley AND Zimmer AND McKenzie plus teens. I don't see it.

 

I think the Tribe can leave their top 4 out but we get a higher volume of lower ranked guys.

 

McKenzie is the guy to get. The Tribe won't want to give him up, but they have to give up something and they know it. This is why Milwaukee needs to put premium draft picks on high upside pitchers. Their value is astronomical.

 

I'd want Mejia because it involves a premium position. From there, you can get a couple of other guys and bicker about the final parameters both ways. If Will Smith is involved, then commensurate value is coming back. Hillman, Chang, et al.

 

Austin, I'm with you - Milwaukee is not getting everyone they want, the same way Cleveland isn't keeping everyone they want.

 

For Lucroy, I would dig in my heels - McKenzie, Mejia, and two kids we like from further down the chain. I would have no problem with that return - I wouldn't take Aiken over McKenzie, for sure right now, and I'm not certain I'd take Sheffield either, but I do like him. If a reliever goes in there too, just sort it out and get it done - we don't have to get one of those outfielders to get the value we should have, and we don't have to gamble on Aiken either - if the two sides are fighting over Bradley, I can see why, and I would take him over the catcher if we have to, but honestly, I don't want to.

[splitterpfj]

I have a feeling Stearns is waiting for Texas to finish their search for a starting pitcher, so he's first in line with both the Indians and Rangers. Both teams want Lucroy, I simply do not believe otherwise, but they've stopped short of the big offer to get him.

 

When they're both focused on Milwaukee, someone will move.

 

That's going to backfire hard if the Rangers get a pitcher.

 

A couple of things here ...

 

Texas will get some pitching - their staff has been absolutely horrible in recent weeks - if they don't do something, they will not reach the postseason.

 

That farm system is deep enough to get a SP, and then get Lucroy, unless they actually manage to get a guy like Sale, but I don't believe a true stud SP will move right now. If it happens, then that's that, but I'd play the odds against it.

[Oldcity]

Yes, I am fine leaving Frazier and Zimmer. McKenzie, Mejia, and two other younger kids for Lucroy. Works just fine for me. Would be an exciting influx of talent.

[paul253]

For Lucroy and Smith Id accept Bradley, Mejia, Mckenzie and Sheffield.

[splitterpfj]

For Lucroy and Smith Id accept Bradley, Mejia, Mckenzie and Sheffield.

 

I would too, but I don't think Cleveland would. Going forward, you may very well be asking for four "Top 100" prospects right there, and I'd be shocked if the Indians did a thing like that.

 

I also think Stearns would give part of that back, in exchange for more younger players, provided he truly believed those players would continue to rise, and not just be, "more guys."

[LouisEly]

While highly ranked, those four are all still in A-ball. The fact that they haven't faced the jump to AA has to discount their value a bit, so I don't think it is too far-fetched. Minorleagueball.com has nothing higher than a B+ rating on any Indians prospect, including Frazier.

 

That being said, I think you are right in that it won't happen. Swap out Hillman for Sheffield and Santander for Bradley, add in one of Greg Allen/Luis Lugo/Don Wakamatsu and that's more in line, and something I would be personally happy with.

 

One guy who must come back is Sicnarf Loopstok. Best. Name. Ever.

[FVBrewerFan]

FWIW, starting to hear rumors the Indians are looking at Beltran

[And That]

Jack Z predicts Lucroy to the Indians.

 

Jonathan Lucroy is going to go somewhere, and I'll say it's going to be the Indians who get him. With Yan Gomes out for what they say is possibly eight weeks, they have to get a catcher. He's a really good player and he's really affordable. He's not making a ton of money.

 

I know the Rangers and Mets are in the mix, too, but I think with the Indians in the position they're in right now in first place and now with the need they have, they're going to get it done.

[Boomer5]

The Indians last world championship was what, 1948?

 

Yeah, no one is untouchable.

[reillymcshane]

No matter where Lucroy goes, any trade needs to factor in that the receiving club can recoup some of the trade investment with a compensation pick in 2018, or if they aren't in contention next year, by flipping Lucroy this off season or at the deadline next year. There's also the possibility of signing him to an extension, making him an even longer term fix for any club.

[Boomer5]

No matter where Lucroy goes, any trade needs to factor in that the receiving club can recoup some of the trade investment with a compensation pick in 2018, or if they aren't in contention next year, by flipping Lucroy this off season or at the deadline next year. There's also the possibility of signing him to an extension, making him an even longer term fix for any club.

 

Agreed. He is going for a big return. There is not way a guy like him doesn't bring back a game changing deal with 1.5 years of control plus a comp pick.

[Madhawk23]

While highly ranked, those four are all still in A-ball. The fact that they haven't faced the jump to AA has to discount their value a bit, so I don't think it is too far-fetched. Minorleagueball.com has nothing higher than a B+ rating on any Indians prospect, including Frazier.

 

That being said, I think you are right in that it won't happen. Swap out Hillman for Sheffield and Santander for Bradley, add in one of Greg Allen/Luis Lugo/Don Wakamatsu and that's more in line, and something I would be personally happy with.

 

One guy who must come back is Sicnarf Loopstok. Best. Name. Ever.

 

 

So, are you suggesting that we trade Lucroy AND Smith for Santander, Mejia, McKenzie, Hillman and either Allen/Lugo/Wakamatsu? I'm sorry, but personally I don't think that is enough. Maybe I'm completely off base here, but if you aren't getting either Zimmer/Frazier in the return deal for 1.5 years of one of the best catchers in baseball along with a few years of one of the better LH relief pitchers, then Cleveland better pony up with a bigger haul and Bradley better be a part of that.

 

For Luc & Smith, I'd personally want (again, if Zimmer/Frazier are off table) Bradley, McKenzie, Mejia, Hillman and then one of their teenage kids that Stearns seems to target in most of his deals. Again - maybe I need to reel in my expectations here, but I just think that a Luc/Smith package deal should net a bit of a bigger return package than what you suggested.

[Point Beer Is Best]

I'm in agreement that they should insist on McKenzie & Mejia as a starting point with one or two other pieces they like.

[MKE81]

While highly ranked, those four are all still in A-ball. The fact that they haven't faced the jump to AA has to discount their value a bit, so I don't think it is too far-fetched. Minorleagueball.com has nothing higher than a B+ rating on any Indians prospect, including Frazier.

 

That being said, I think you are right in that it won't happen. Swap out Hillman for Sheffield and Santander for Bradley, add in one of Greg Allen/Luis Lugo/Don Wakamatsu and that's more in line, and something I would be personally happy with.

 

One guy who must come back is Sicnarf Loopstok. Best. Name. Ever.

 

 

So, are you suggesting that we trade Lucroy AND Smith for Santander, Mejia, McKenzie, Hillman and either Allen/Lugo/Wakamatsu? I'm sorry, but personally I don't think that is enough. Maybe I'm completely off base here, but if you aren't getting either Zimmer/Frazier in the return deal for 1.5 years of one of the best catchers in baseball along with a few years of one of the better LH relief pitchers, then Cleveland better pony up with a bigger haul and Bradley better be a part of that.

 

For Luc & Smith, I'd personally want (again, if Zimmer/Frazier are off table) Bradley, McKenzie, Mejia, Hillman and then one of their teenage kids that Stearns seems to target in most of his deals. Again - maybe I need to reel in my expectations here, but I just think that a Luc/Smith package deal should net a bit of a bigger return package than what you suggested.

 

To get a deal done I would almost prefer to bypass Zimmer/Frazier and focus on Bradley, McKenzie, Mejia, Hillman in return for Lucroy/Smith. It would be great to add in a 18/19yr old arm as well but I wouldn't care if it was just those 4 players. 3 Top 100 and Hillman could potentially grow into that list. That's a great haul. If a trade with CLE happens it'll be interesting to see the final result given everyone's idea of what should be had in return.

[Jose Cardenal1]

The Yankees just got 2 top 100 players (one top 25) and two other players for a 10 week rental of Chapman. At best Chapman is a player who will get in 1/2 the games left (and that would be overusing him) while Lucroy will start in 90-95% of the remaining games, plus the entire year of 2017. Lucroy is a top five Catcher. Champman is really good and maybe you can argue top 5 reliever but there are an awful lot of good relievers in the league. Not very many good all around catchers.

 

The point? Lucroy should and will bring back a big return with or without paring a reliever with him. The fact that the Yankees just got the Cubs #1 prospect gives Stearns more ammunition to demand Frazier or Zimmer from the Indians. Plus another top 100 like Mejia and another really good prospect like McKenzie. If the Indians insist on keeping the 2 OF then ask for Bradley plus another player in addition to McKenzie and Mejia. If Smith (who is worth at least one top 100 given 3+ years of control) is included then you can talk about adding some combination of Aiken, Sheffield, Hillman or Chang to the deal.

[brewmann04]

get us one pitcher of top rotation quality for Luc

[mlloyd10]

Frazier/Bradley/Mejia

[mattyo]

I agree with those saying our haul for Lucroy should be helped by the Chapman trade. This is what I would ask for Lucroy and Smith:

 

With Frazier/Zimmer on the table:

Frazier + Mckenzie + Mejia (Lucroy for Frazier/McKenzie, Smith for Mejia)

All of these players above could be top 50 prospects by seasons end, with Frazier already being top 25.

 

Without Frazier/Zimmer on the table:

Bradley + Mckenzie + Mejia + Hillman/Sheffield (Lucroy for Bradley/McKenzie/Mejia, Smith for Hillman or Sheffield)

All top 100 recruits as of right now, with the potential for multiple top 50.

[FVBrewerFan]

The Yankees just got 2 top 100 players (one top 25) and two other players for a 10 week rental of Chapman. At best Chapman is a player who will get in 1/2 the games left (and that would be overusing him) while Lucroy will start in 90-95% of the remaining games, plus the entire year of 2017. Lucroy is a top five Catcher. Champman is really good and maybe you can argue top 5 reliever but there are an awful lot of good relievers in the league. Not very many good all around catchers.

 

The point? Lucroy should and will bring back a big return with or without paring a reliever with him. /quote]

 

Should? Yes. Will? Remains to be seen. Cubs are "all in," that's why they were willing to make that deal. Just because they did, doesn't mean Cleveland, Texas, or anyone else wants Lucroy that badly. Every situation is different. As the saying goes, what something is worth is what someone is willing to pay for it.

 

I said about 70 pages ago Cleveland should be all in this year. They could make this deal for Lucroy, and still have a ton of young talent left. That doesn't mean they see it that way.

[adambr2]

 

I said about 70 pages ago Cleveland should be all in this year. They could make this deal for Lucroy, and still have a ton of young talent left. That doesn't mean they see it that way.

 

Hope they enjoy the World Series batting 2 pitchers #8 and #9 on the road, then. Good luck.

[MrTPlush]

Chapman and what he got literally means nothing when talking about Lucroy, NOTHING. No team cares. They are talking about Lucroy not Chapman and that team is not the Cubs.

[FVBrewerFan]

 

I said about 70 pages ago Cleveland should be all in this year. They could make this deal for Lucroy, and still have a ton of young talent left. That doesn't mean they see it that way.

 

Hope they enjoy the World Series batting 2 pitchers #8 and #9 on the road, then. Good luck.

 

And their response would be "Good luck with the comp pick you'll get for Lucroy two years from now." That's why these negotiations can be so tough at times.

 

Who's to say there's not some mediocre catcher they can get for far less than Lucroy's price tag? Yea, they need and upgrade there, but they don't need a catcher with .850 OPS.

 

Again, I'm not saying I agree with their position. Just floating where I think they're coming from.