Best catcher in Brewers history?

[gregmag]

Somebody started this conversation in a thread a few days ago, but I think it deserves its own thread. As we (or at least I) start to get prematurely nostalgic for Jonathan Lucroy, an interesting question is whether he's the best catcher in Brewers history.

 

My instinct going into this was that he is. Of course, it all depends on what you mean by "best" -- how much you care about peak vs. career value, offense vs. defense, etc. As a conversation starter (NOT stopper), I did some quick back-of-the-napkin math on Fangraphs about the guys who seem to belong in the conversation. This is really basic -- games played as a Brewer and fWAR. One huge caveat is that I didn't have an easy way of looking strictly at how these guys performed as catchers. Most of them spent a lot of time at other positions. Anyway, this is through last night:

 

Jonathan Lucroy: 802 games, 19.0 fWAR

Charlie Moore: 1283 games, 9.1 fWAR

Dave Nilsson: 837 games, 10.0 fWAR

Darrell Porter: 537 games, 9.8 fWAR

Ted Simmons: 665 games, 6.1 fWAR

B.J. Surhoff: 1102 games, 14.1 fWAR

 

If you believe these numbers, Lucroy has been our best catcher, and it isn't close. When you consider that he's caught the vast majority of his games, which I think only Porter could say among the other guys, he pulls further away. Also, the new info for catchers is framing. We don't have those stats for the older guys, but we can at least say that Lucroy would be very unlikely to lose ground by that metric.

 

A different interesting question is which player that caught for the Brewers had the best overall MLB career, and how Lucroy fits into that conversation. I'm assuming Simmons, but Porter has always been massively underrated. Now I'll check numbers. Here are the guys with the most significant careers:

 

Rick Dempsey: 1766 games, 27.7 fWAR

Jason Kendall: 2085 games, 39.5 fWAR

Darrell Porter: 1782 games, 40.8 fWAR

Ted Simmons: 2456 games, 54.2 fWAR

Jim Sundberg: 1962 games, 37.8 fWAR

B.J. Surhoff: 2313 games, 31.4 fWAR

 

If you're interested, there's a clear second tier that clusters pretty closely:

 

Andy Etchebarren: 948 games, 11.6 fWAR

Ray Fosse: 924 games, 10.6 fWAR

Damian Miller: 989 games, 12.5 fWAR

Charlie O'Brien: 800 games, 10.7 fWAR

Gregg Zaun: 1232 games, 12.2 fWAR

 

Lucroy, right now, is on a pace that would put him right with the best of these guys. To extend the simple math a little further, here's the career games per fWAR for the best players from the career list, and Lucroy:

 

Jason Kendall: 52.8

Jonathan Lucroy: 42.2

Darrell Porter: 43.7

Ted Simmons: 45.3

Jim Sundberg: 51.9

 

I threw in Kendall and Sundberg for perspective, because both of them had excellent careers, but Simmons and Porter are the clear class of our catching alumni.

 

Lucroy's career to date looks very impressive. So far he's performing at the level of the best players ever to catch for the Brewers. The key, obviously, is longevity. Porter is underrated and excellent, but Simmons put up similar performance over 700 more games. So far Lucroy has only had not quite half of Porter's career, only a third of Simmons' career, and he's almost certain to decline through his 30s. Also, by my very rough math, Simmons had already played 1459 games by the end of his age 30 season. To match Simmons' career, Lucroy will have to hold much more of his value in his 30s than Simmons did.

 

Still, it's pretty cool. Let's enjoy watching Luc tonight, because he's a special player who may not be around tomorrow.

[reillymcshane]

This is pretty cool to see. Thank you.

 

I've been lucky (or maybe old) enough to have seen all of these players. I don't think there's any question that Luc isn't the best we've ever had. We've had him in his prime and he hasn't been injured or traded (yet).

 

Simmons was probably the 'best' for his career - but his prime years were in St. Louis. Kendall and Sungberg were really good catchers who we also brought in at the end of their careers. Good players, but they weren't the all star versions.

 

Porter could have been the best guy, but he was traded pretty young. I remember watching him turn into an all star in KC and St. Louis. That was painful. We gave up on him way too quickly.

 

Nilsson could have been pretty special as well, but injuries really derailed him. B.J. just never seemed to gel as a catcher - and his position shifts in his career.

 

Charlie Moore was a solid guy, but nothing special. Got lots of his value from playing a long time with the club.

 

No catcher in Milwaukee history has really been around during his prime like Lucroy and actually stayed at catcher and stayed healthy.

[Boomer5]

Thats a great post. I love anything Brewer history.

 

Porter must have had something going on behind the scenes because we really dumped him to the Royals for not much. A classic quarter for two nickels trade.

 

Simmons was my first blush best catcher though he really wasnt a great defensive player but he was a really quality hitter.

 

That said, Luc is our best by far. I will be sad to see him go, though he clearly needs to be traded at the break to help the future of the team.

[StearnsFTW]

This list shakes out pretty much exactly how I would've expected, at the top at least. Simmons, Porter and Lucroy on pace to be at the top. As was stated, Lucroy is by far the best catcher to ever wear a Brewer uniform, and if he continues his play here or elsewhere he could have the best career as well. It was great to have him and I'll miss him when he's gone.

[Funketown]

In terms of what they did with the Brewers, I don't think anybody comes all that close to Lucroy. That said, I'm too young to remember what somebody like Dave Nilsson did defensively, but unless he was elite defensively I don't think I could make an argument for Nilsson.

[MrTPlush]

Jonathan Lucroy. There is no argument. Not even a sliver.

[reillymcshane]

In terms of what they did with the Brewers, I don't think anybody comes all that close to Lucroy. That said, I'm too young to remember what somebody like Dave Nilsson did defensively, but unless he was elite defensively I don't think I could make an argument for Nilsson.

Nilsson was not an elite defensive catcher. In fact, he was a pretty bad defensive catcher, if I recall.

 

It didn't help that he had about three hundred operations on his knees and/or back (I don't recall which - maybe both).

[splitterpfj]

Darrell Porter had substance abuse issues, that's what nearly wrecked his career, and it's what led to the trade. (go look at his stats in 1976, you'll see the nosedive)

 

Ted Simmons was easily the best catcher who has ever played for the Brewers, and he is simply the most underrated catcher in my lifetime, but he came here later in his career, and had two strong years as a Brewer. I don't think you can call him the Brewers' best catcher, but you can call him the best catcher who was a Brewer.

 

Jim Sundberg was excellent defensively, but not much with the bat, and he only played here for one season.

 

If Surhoff had played his whole career behind the plate, I might choose him over Lucroy, but he switched positions.

 

In a Brewers uniform, I would say yes, Lucroy has been the best catcher this team has ever had.

[reillymcshane]

 

Porter must have had something going on behind the scenes because we really dumped him to the Royals for not much. A classic quarter for two nickels trade.

Porter had drug problems for much of his life. He, sadly, died of an overdose in 2002. Perhaps that was an issue that the Brewers were eager to rid themselves of. Just speculation. Maybe some of the other guys on the board know more about it.

[splitterpfj]

 

Porter must have had something going on behind the scenes because we really dumped him to the Royals for not much. A classic quarter for two nickels trade.

Porter had drug problems for much of his life. He, sadly, died of an overdose in 2002. Perhaps that was an issue that the Brewers were eager to rid themselves of. Just speculation. Maybe some of the other guys on the board know more about it.

 

Yes, Reilly, I touched on it in my last post in this thread - addictions had a firm grip on Porter, causing his performance to fall apart - that's why he was dealt.

 

I was at a game in 1976, where a ball was popped straight up, maybe 2-3 steps behind the plate - Porter stood, and went to make the play, but he fell flat on his face. Whatever he was using, he was a complete mess at that time.

[JohnBriggs12]

Though he played other positions and his career was cut short, I'd put Dave Nilsson right up there certainly as the best offensive catcher the Brewers ever had. His last season, he caught over 100 games and posted a .954 OPS.

[And That]

Can't believe Henry Blanco hasn't been brought up yet. Hank the Tank!

 

It actually is amazing to me that he played 12 more season in the big leagues after he left the Brewers as a 30 year old backup catcher in 2001.

[JohnBriggs12]

I actually saw Porter play many times. He and I graduated from high school the same year. He was indeed very talented but I don't think he was ready for success at such a young age. In the early 70's kids 18-20 weren't nearly as ready as they are now. There was no cable television, internet, cell phones, or even VCRs. They weren't travelling the country playing AAU/traveling teams/All Star teams by the time they were 14 or 15. I'm guessing Porter was a multi sport athlete in high school.

 

Porter did fine under Del Crandall's guidance. After all Crandall was one of the best catchers of his day, and a quiet fatherly type. But when Crandall was replaced by Alex Grammas (who came from the Reds), I'm sure Grammas thought he should be more like Johnny Bench and nobody was quite like Bench.

 

Porter's 1976 season was abysmal. It appeared he had wasted his enormous talent.

[Boomer5]

That's right. That makes sense. My dad has alluded to it but I was too young to read between the lines. Pun intended.

 

Too bad for Porter. I forgot he died in 2002.

[Austin Tatious]

Fun discussion.

 

Porter's story is truly sad. He was taken in the 1st round, fourth overall, by the Brewers, so he was a talented kid. I remember him on some good KC and Cards ball clubs and it always bugged me that the Brewers didn't get the benefit of his talent.

 

His death story is awful, cocaine.

 

I loved Ted Simmons. Switch hitter. Batted cleanup behind CC and got it done. But, yes, his best years were in St Louis.

 

As for Brewers, agreed that Lucroy is clearly the guy. I did enjoy BJ Surhoff as a player. He was 1st overall pick if I recall correctly. I remember him taking Clemens deep at Boston in a low scoring game in probably that early 90's run. Talented guy, wish he stayed in Milwaukee.

 

Nilsson could flat out hit and deserves mention.

 

Charlie Moore moved to RF and I suspect too much of his contribution was out there. He had a rocket arm having been a catcher, previously.

[splitterpfj]

Briggs, that's a great point on Del Crandall.

 

For those of you who don't know, Crandall was an All-Star catcher for the Boston and Milwaukee Braves, he then managed the Brewers from 1972-1975.

 

Briggs, you're right, Crandall would have been here when Darrell came up, and I'm sure he was a perfect mentor for a young catcher. Porter fell flat on his face, quite literally, right after Del was replaced.

[gregmag]

For the hell of it (and because I really want to avoid the work I need to be doing right now), since fWAR covers both offense and defense, here's some different rough info on offense alone: best three seasons as a Brewer by OPS+, minimum 300 PA, and total (Brewer and non-Brewer) career OPS+:

 

Jonathan Lucroy: 132, 131, 124 (2016 to date); career 111

Dave Nilsson: 141, 131, 106; career 110

Darrell Porter: 133, 123, 103; career 113

Ted Simmons: 126, 112, 104; career 118

B.J. Surhoff: 120, 102, 99; career 98

 

As a Cardinal, Simmons had four seasons over 140 OPS+. For his career none of the others can touch him. The Dave Nilsson season that Briggs mentioned above is the best ever for a Brewers catcher by OPS+.

 

The numbers make for an interesting conversation about the best offensive catcher for the Brewers overall. I'd take Lucroy over Nilsson, based on more performance at a high level. You can make a reasonable case for either guy. The others really had nothing good as Brewers behind their three peak seasons, whereas Luc has had another season of 116 and Nilsson had a couple of 103s (one with only 294 PA). If both guys had healthy careers I bet Nilsson would have exceeded Luc offensively, but we'll never know.

[gregmag]

Darrell Porter's story is very sad. I didn't know he died from drugs. He had a terrific career even with drug problems; we can only imagine how much more he could have accomplished clean. Porter is also one of those guys who suffers historically from coming up before people widely understood the offensive value of walks and to a lesser extent isolated power. He batted only .247 for his career but with a .354 OBP and .162 ISO. He wasn't quite Gene Tenace (.241 / .388 / .188), but he's probably the next best example of that kind of player at catcher until Mickey Tettleton came along (.241 / .369 / .208).

[rwa12]

[sarcasm]This entire discussion is invalid, as I've seen no mention of Chad Moeller. Need I remind you of his cycle?

 

I didn't think so. Case Closed.[/sarcasm]

[Baldkin]

[sarcasm]This entire discussion is invalid, as I've seen no mention of Chad Moeller. Need I remind you of his cycle?

 

I didn't think so. Case Closed.[/sarcasm]

 

Clearly Kottaras also needs to be on the list.

[jerichoholicninja]

I think a more fun topic would be worst catcher.

 

Robinson Cancel

Pat Borders

Raul Casanova

Jorge Fabregas

Keith Osik

Blake Lalli

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

I remember Darrell Porter catching when I was a little kid. I think that one reason he isn't talked much about as a Brewer is that he was the MVP of the 1982 World Series against us (IIRC). I would say that Lucroy is easily the best catcher in a Brewers uniform. Simmons struggled behind the plate and he really didn't put up the offensive numbers he put up for Cardinals. Surhoff couldn't throw out my grandma. Nillson was bad defensively and made more mound visits per game than

Carlton Fisk.

[RockCoCougars]

Lucroy and it's not really close. Simmons has always been the default answer to this, but he really only caught the first few years in MKE, and was mostly a DH after that.

[RockCoCougars]

I think a more fun topic would be worst catcher.

 

Robinson Cancel

Pat Borders

Raul Casanova

Jorge Fabregas

Keith Osik

Blake Lalli

 

I nominate "Fat Johnny" Estrada. We found out pretty quickly why the Brewers were his 4th team in as many years.