Chapman to Cubs for Torres, Warren, McKinney, Crawford (nee "mystery player")

[monty57]

None of our pitchers are even remotely close to Chapman. Yankees had the only two difference makers so to speak on the market. That is why they got a huge overpay. Jeffress/Thornburg/Smith are all great pitchers, but not elite. Controllable or not they want to win this year and Chapman gives them the best shot.

 

But Chapman is now gone, and teams know that the Yankees want a Schwarber-type return for Miller. Any team looking for relief help but unwilling to ship out a young MLB All Star will have to talk to Stearns who can use Chapman's price tag as further leverage.

 

In other words, even if 3.5 years of Jeffress is only worth 75% of 0.5 years of Chapman, that's still a lot. This makes if reasonable to think that we could get some Top 100 prospects back for our relievers, which is more than I would have expected a few months ago.

[Oldcity]

This is great. Hopefully the Cubs continue to mortgage their future for a WS shot this year.

 

Wishful thinking on your part. What future did they mortgage? Their current SS is 22. They also still have Baez who's 23. McKinney's doesn't project to be a core player if he makes any impact whatsoever at the big league level. Warren's 4-5 starter material that can't crack their present rotation. Crawford's just a warm body. They have plenty of money to fill in any gaps.

 

Continue to mortgage the future. Are you implying trading Vogelbach was mortgaging the future? Rizzo's under control through 2021. Even if they wanted to keep Vogelbach, he will have exhausted all his minor league options long before Rizzo would be gone.

 

I think the Cubs got off light here.

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't have traded their number one prospect. They're in win-now mode, so that's what you do. I'm saying they should have used him for someone who would give them more than 40 innings for the rest of the season and postseason combined. They could have used this package to get a more impactful player than a closer for 2-3 months.

 

You seem the hate every Brewers move and love every Cubs move. Why aren't you a Cubs fan?

[gregmag]

This is good for us, right? For three reasons --

 

(1) As others are pointing out, it sets a high market for quality late-inning relievers.

 

(2) It takes the best (known to be) available reliever that isn't ours off the market.

 

(3) It removes an obstacle to maximizing our return for Lucroy, because we weren't trading him to the Cubs, and none of the teams we might trade him to used their trade chips on Chapman.

[Point Beer Is Best]

This is good for us, right? For three reasons --

 

(1) As others are pointing out, it sets a high market for quality late-inning relievers.

 

(2) It takes the best (known to be) available reliever that isn't ours off the market.

 

(3) It removes an obstacle to maximizing our return for Lucroy, because we weren't trading him to the Cubs, and none of the teams we might trade him to used their trade chips on Chapman.

 

(4) The trade didn't involve the teams we've been linked to for relievers (Cleveland, Washington, Texas) so there demand is still there while supply has been reduced.

 

I'd say the relief market was set when the Marlins got a 39 year old Rodney for Chris Praddock. In a weird way, with Stearns reportedly asking for Praddock plus two more prospects for Jeffress (and then the Marlins doing to deal with San Diego instead), Stearns may have started this all off by setting a high price on Jeffress weeks ago.

[Boomer5]

Number one prospect plus for two months of a guy who will pitch what, 30 innings?

 

I get it if you're the Cubs as 1908 was a long time ago, but that is a massive price that I'd love to have if I'm in the Brewers FO.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Good for the Cubs to "go for it"...but boy that's a steep price. Yes, they currently have the SS position more than covered at the MLB level, but trading away that kind of prospect at a premium position gives them fewer options a couple years from now when all that young position player core needs to get paid. Right now the Cubs' payroll is pushing $170MM, think of where it would need to go to pay guys like Russell, Baez, Schwarber, and Bryant anything close to fair market value? The centerpiece prospect in this trade appeared to have the potential to replace one of their MIF regulars when they started getting expensive.

 

Additionally, I still think they need to go out and trade for another difference-making starting pitcher.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing bewildered Cub fan faces on Addison and Waveland as Scherzer & Strasburg shut them down in the postseason.

[SRB]

A comparable Brewer package would be Isan Diaz (Torres comp), Tyrone Taylor (McKinney), Wily Peralta (Warren), and Elvis Rubio (Crawford). That's not a great haul for one of the premier relievers in the game.

 

It's much closer to us trading Orlando Arcia for half a season of a RP, actually...

[Oldcity]

Exactly. The point isn't that they shouldn't have traded Torres, the point is they should have traded him for something more impactful than a reliever. He could have headlined a deal for Matt Moore or even Chris Sale.

[bill hAll Star]

Brewers fan in me: Good! They've weakened their future outlook and the value does not line up. Likely weakens the pipeline for 2018 and beyond when hopefully the Brewers are competing again.

 

Cubs/Illinois teams hater in me: Damn. I don't want the Cubs to win it all and while the WAR of this is heavily in the Yankees favor...the Cubs have probably already clinched the division for all intents and purposes this year. For any given game in the playoffs, the value of Chapman is immense.

[QuevedosTongue]

Exactly. The point isn't that they shouldn't have traded Torres, the point is they should have traded him for something more impactful than a reliever. He could have headlined a deal for Matt Moore or even Chris Sale.

 

Sale was exactly the thought I had when I saw this deal. If they were willing to give up a pile of players, why not go and get a top of rotation pitcher. That would make more sense, particularly when their starting pitching isn't particularly young like their position players.

[1992casey]

I'm looking forward to seeing bewildered Cub fan faces on Addison and Waveland as Scherzer & Strasburg shut them down in the postseason.

Addison doesn't intersect with Waveland. Sorry, but I couldn't resist. Carry on.

[Noche]

The best course of action would be to make Chapman a starter now a la Wainwright and lol at all the haters

[Fear The Chorizo]

I'm looking forward to seeing bewildered Cub fan faces on Addison and Waveland as Scherzer & Strasburg shut them down in the postseason.

Addison doesn't intersect with Waveland. Sorry, but I couldn't resist. Carry on.

Haha, didn't intend it to mean the intersection...lets add clark and sheffield to surround wrigley

[danzig6767]

Number one prospect plus for two months of a guy who will pitch what, 30 innings?

 

I get it if you're the Cubs as 1908 was a long time ago, but that is a massive price that I'd love to have if I'm in the Brewers FO.

I get the limited number of innings which Chapman will end up pitching, but this move was made for the playoffs, not the regular season. He not only becomes their closer, it pushes back everyone else an inning, making their 6th/7th/8th inning specialists even a tougher group to face.

 

Baseball in regards to bullpen usage and importance has changed dramatically, even more so in the playoffs where having multiple top notch starters is no longer needed to advance far in the playoffs so long as a team has a great pen.

 

St. Louis in 2010 largely won their ring via great production in their pen and the offense. Both carried them through the playoffs.

 

Boston in 2013 had nothing special starting pitching, but their pen and offense were great in the playoffs, leading to a title.

 

The Royals made the World Series in back to back years without an ace or top tier rotation, but their pen was lights out to go with good defense and timely hitting.

 

With the extra days off in the playoffs and managers not having to be as careful about over-use of their best relief pitchers, these teams with 3-4 guys in the pen who have a sub-3 ERA, great K/BB ration, and low WHIP can just come in throwing gas and mow down hitters. An offense working the count in the playoffs and thus getting a starter out in say the 5th or 6th inning is often a bad thing today as better pitching is waiting in the bulllpen.

 

Between Strop, Rondon, and now Chapman, that three guys on par or better than what the Royals had.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Unless Lester and Lackey get back on track, I think the Cubs are going to be shorthanded in their starting rotation come playoff time - In 2015 They beat the Pirates in the Wild Card game and the Cards in the Divisional round largely because Jake Arietta was untouchable and the Cards' starting staff wasn't dominating. Then they ran into a young Mets staff + Familia who held them in check in a best of 7 game series format that finally showed the warts of the rest of the 2015 Cub staff.

 

Arietta's still really good, but he's not unhittable and guaranteed to get through 8IP every start like he was last year. Yes, their bullpen is much stronger than it was after Chapman's been brought in...but I can see postseason history repeating itself when they have to win a 7 game series against a team with a superior starting staff #1-3 unless they bring in another quality starter.

[Boomer5]

Number one prospect plus for two months of a guy who will pitch what, 30 innings?

 

I get it if you're the Cubs as 1908 was a long time ago, but that is a massive price that I'd love to have if I'm in the Brewers FO.

I get the limited number of innings which Chapman will end up pitching, but this move was made for the playoffs, not the regular season. He not only becomes their closer, it pushes back everyone else an inning, making their 6th/7th/8th inning specialists even a tougher group to face.

 

Baseball in regards to bullpen usage and importance has changed dramatically, even more so in the playoffs where having multiple top notch starters is no longer needed to advance far in the playoffs so long as a team has a great pen.

 

St. Louis in 2010 largely won their ring via great production in their pen and the offense. Both carried them through the playoffs.

 

Boston in 2013 had nothing special starting pitching, but their pen and offense were great in the playoffs, leading to a title.

 

The Royals made the World Series in back to back years without an ace or top tier rotation, but their pen was lights out to go with good defense and timely hitting.

 

With the extra days off in the playoffs and managers not having to be as careful about over-use of their best relief pitchers, these teams with 3-4 guys in the pen who have a sub-3 ERA, great K/BB ration, and low WHIP can just come in throwing gas and mow down hitters. An offense working the count in the playoffs and thus getting a starter out in say the 5th or 6th inning is often a bad thing today as better pitching is waiting in the bulllpen.

 

Between Strop, Rondon, and now Chapman, that three guys on par or better than what the Royals had.

 

I see it from the Cubs point of view. The Royals model makes the powerful bullpen a necessity to win the post season in most GM's minds. That's in part why the recent trades for Giles etc seem more "reasonable".

 

The Cubs gave up way too much in respect to 30 innings but they did not in respect to a possible ring which is priceless, especially to that organization. They also traded from depth, so while it was a huge haul, it wont really hurt them, baring injuries.

 

My point of view is that we should be looking at some huge packages for JJ, Smith, and Thornburg. Yes, not Chapman level, but half that for each would set us up in a massive way.

[adambr2]

This is great. Hopefully the Cubs continue to mortgage their future for a WS shot this year.

 

Wishful thinking on your part. What future did they mortgage? Their current SS is 22. They also still have Baez who's 23. McKinney's doesn't project to be a core player if he makes any impact whatsoever at the big league level. Warren's 4-5 starter material that can't crack their present rotation. Crawford's just a warm body. They have plenty of money to fill in any gaps.

 

Continue to mortgage the future. Are you implying trading Vogelbach was mortgaging the future? Rizzo's under control through 2021. Even if they wanted to keep Vogelbach, he will have exhausted all his minor league options long before Rizzo would be gone.

 

I think the Cubs got off light here.

 

The Cubs got off light? In terms of price, the package they gave up is comparable to what we gave up for Sabathia, or at least, what we got for Greinke. The couple of major differences are that they're going to get a lot less innings from Chapman, and if he walks, they get nothing. We got 2 compensation picks when CC walked.

 

Organizational depth is never a bad thing to have, no matter how young your current starters are. It wasn't that many years ago that our best prospects was at first base even though we had Prince Fielder, and it wasn't many years ago that we had Yuni B starting at SS with no SS prospects in the pipeline.

 

I get what the Cubs are doing given how desperate that franchise is for a World Series, although if they were going to jettison their top prospect I think they should have looked further than a 2 month rental of a reliever. But if they win the World Series, all is forgiven. If they don't even get there and Chapman walks, Theo is going to sorely regret it.