center field

[danzig6767]

 

Sorry man. This isn't tee ball. Counsell doesn't get to being a manager of an MLB club with the thought process of not caring about winning. To be honest you could say they play Broxton perfect. They gave him the start of the season, he sucked. Now they bring him up after an adjustment and are putting him out there in a position to succeed. So far it's working. And yet, we gripe.

If Carlos Gomez or Braun were blocking Broxton from playing everyday, i'd get not starting him all of the time. It's Kirk Nieuwenhuis though. A guy that's going to be a career backup.

[trwi7]

Every time someone talks about tanking the first thing I think of is they have never played organized sports. Or recreational sports for that matter.

 

That's a little insulting because I've played competitive and recreational sports and always cared about winning. I also know that when you're in a situation like the Brewers, it's not all about winning. Coaches need to be able to separate these things.

 

Nobody is saying go out there and let Blazek pitch 5 innings so the other team scores like 6 or 7 runs off of him and guarantee we lose. It's not too much to ask to play a young, toolsy centerfielder most of the time in place of Kirk Nieuwenhuis to evaluate said centerfielder and possibly see if he's a future piece on our next contending team. We already know what Nieuwenhuis is. A 4th or 5th outfielder. Now, if we didn't have Broxton, then by all means let Nieuwenhuis play everyday. He's a decent filler on a rebuilding team that you might be able to extract a little from in a trade. That's not the case here.

 

Once again, nobody is saying sit Braun for the rest of the season so we can play (insert crappy player here) to lose more games. Nobody is saying hey that Villar guy is playing too well. Better bring up Brandon Macias and let him play over him so we can lose more.

[pacopete4]

If Carlos Gomez or Braun were blocking Broxton from playing everyday, i'd get not starting him all of the time. It's Kirk Nieuwenhuis though. A guy that's going to be a career backup.

 

 

 

A career backup that we might be able to move during this month allowing us to get another piece moving forward. Broxton is playing plenty for the organization to get a look at him. Again if this was Flores that we're speaking about, fine. But Kirk has held his own enough to maybe help us out by getting us another piece. Maybe you don't care about that but I bet Stearns does.

[Sixto]

Every time someone talks about tanking the first thing I think of is they have never played organized sports. Or recreational sports for that matter.

 

That's a little insulting because I've played competitive and recreational sports and always cared about winning. I also know that when you're in a situation like the Brewers, it's not all about winning. Coaches need to be able to separate these things.

 

Nobody is saying go out there and let Blazek pitch 5 innings so the other team scores like 6 or 7 runs off of him and guarantee we lose. It's not too much to ask to play a young, toolsy centerfielder most of the time in place of Kirk Nieuwenhuis to evaluate said centerfielder and possibly see if he's a future piece on our next contending team. We already know what Nieuwenhuis is. A 4th or 5th outfielder. Now, if we didn't have Broxton, then by all means let Nieuwenhuis play everyday. He's a decent filler on a rebuilding team that you might be able to extract a little from in a trade. That's not the case here.

 

Once again, nobody is saying sit Braun for the rest of the season so we can play (insert crappy player here) to lose more games. Nobody is saying hey that Villar guy is playing too well. Better bring up Brandon Macias and let him play over him so we can lose more.

 

Then you should know better. These guys have trained and trained and spent their whole lives dedicating themselves to one thing. And that one thing does not include a clause about tanking. Coaches are hired to win ball games. It's easy for fans to tell Counsell to add a 100 loss season to his resume. Would you willingly do that ? I'm guessing he would rather not. Players and coaches do not play to lose.

[adambr2]

Who is telling Counsell to lose 100 games? And how does playing young players in a lost season equate to tanking? Counsell's job is safe right now, the front office understands the situation. How he transitions when the team transitions to a contender again will determine his job security after that.

[yfinn6]

Then you should know better. These guys have trained and trained and spent their whole lives dedicating themselves to one thing. And that one thing does not include a clause about tanking. Coaches are hired to win ball games. It's easy for fans to tell Counsell to add a 100 loss season to his resume. Would you willingly do that ? I'm guessing he would rather not. Players and coaches do not play to lose.

 

I don't think you quite understand the point that is being made.

 

Winning is great, no one wants to lose and fans don't want to see losses. However, as presented, the Brewers are concerned more about rebuilding and evaluating talent throughout the organization: top to bottom. If they were more concerned with how many games they won this year, they would not have been so eager to trade Lucroy, and Jeffress, and Smith.

[Sixto]

Then you should know better. These guys have trained and trained and spent their whole lives dedicating themselves to one thing. And that one thing does not include a clause about tanking. Coaches are hired to win ball games. It's easy for fans to tell Counsell to add a 100 loss season to his resume. Would you willingly do that ? I'm guessing he would rather not. Players and coaches do not play to lose.

 

I don't think you quite understand the point that is being made.

 

Winning is great, no one wants to lose and fans don't want to see losses. However, as presented, the Brewers are concerned more about rebuilding and evaluating talent throughout the organization: top to bottom. If they were more concerned with how many games they won this year, they would not have been so eager to trade Lucroy, and Jeffress, and Smith.

 

I do understand. Fans want Counsell to ruin his own career by making coaching moves to lose on purpose. To go against everything that has been in his blood for 30 years.

 

Why not just ask Braun to strike out more too ? He has enough money. He doesnt care about his resume or self respect either. We could get a higher draft pick. Maybe have fines for multi-hit games, or fines for pitching well. How about bonuses for striking out or blowing a save.

 

Dont we have agents in the house ? Lets get their opinion on tanking. I'll be they're all for it too.

[trwi7]

I do understand. Fans want Counsell to ruin his own career by making coaching moves to lose on purpose.

 

That is not what anybody is saying. What if, with regular playing time, Broxton turns into a really good player? That helps Counsell's career and the Brewers win more.

[Sixto]

I do understand. Fans want Counsell to ruin his own career by making coaching moves to lose on purpose.

 

That is not what anybody is saying. What if, with regular playing time, Broxton turns into a really good player? That helps Counsell's career and the Brewers win more.

 

"You can try to win while not particularly caring if you do win"

 

Thats what I responded to. Pure and simple

[adambr2]

I do understand. Fans want Counsell to ruin his own career by making coaching moves to lose on purpose.

 

That is not what anybody is saying. What if, with regular playing time, Broxton turns into a really good player? That helps Counsell's career and the Brewers win more.

 

"You can try to win while not particularly caring if you do win"

 

Thats what I responded to. Pure and simple

 

I really think you're overdramatizing this quote a bit. This team is not tanking. No one is being asked to lose or struggle; players, coaches, or managers. With very rare exceptions, fans aren't asking that either.

 

It all really comes down to a broader goal than a 162 game season. It's not about losing, but it's also not about having the best possible record at the end of 162 games, it's about having the best record and team in X number of years when we have a chance to compete again. And rebuilding is about using players that have a chance to help you have that best possible team in X number of years. Who has a chance to be a part of a competitive Brewers team in say, 3 years? Keon Broxton might. Kirk Nieuwenhuis most likely does not.

 

'Trying to win while nor really caring if you do' is probably underselling the competitive desire of players to win, but I don't think it's really literal. When I watch a Brewers game, I want them to win. I do care. But at the end of the season, I don't really care about whether they win 68 or 72 games, and if they're answering honestly, the organization doesn't either.

[dlk9s]

Every time someone talks about tanking the first thing I think of is they have never played organized sports. Or recreational sports for that matter.

http://i.imgur.com/OXzB4.gif

[trwi7]

"You can try to win while not particularly caring if you do win"

 

Thats what I responded to. Pure and simple

 

I don't see what your issue is with that statement. You can play matchups in the bullpen, well, we can't really now since it's all right handers. You can shift when there's a pull hitter at the plate, those are moves that increase your odds to win but you can also give younger players the playing time they need to see if they develop into a future player when the team is contending again.

 

If they don't develop into that player, then at least you know and you can move on. If they do, that's terrific too. Once again, nobody is saying hey play this guy all the time even though he's no good and sit our star player because we're winning too many games.

 

All we're saying is play the young guy with solid tools to see if he develops into a future piece. Even if he doesn't, at least you know and it might have only cost you a couple of losses in a rebuilding season(s).

[homer]

I do understand. Fans want Counsell to ruin his own career by making coaching moves to lose on purpose.

 

That is not what anybody is saying. What if, with regular playing time, Broxton turns into a really good player? That helps Counsell's career and the Brewers win more.

 

"You can try to win while not particularly caring if you do win"

 

Thats what I responded to. Pure and simple

 

 

That simply means you play to win and if you don't win it's not a bad result. I don't see anyone suggesting the Brewers not try hard.

[monty57]

People are putting too much on Counsell. The coaches job is to do what he can to win this season with what he's given. The owner's job is to set the direction of the franchise. The GM's job is to put together a group of people that will fulfill the owner's goals.

 

If Kirk N. is on the team, the GM put him there, and must have a reason for him being there. Counsell has some input on roster management, but that ultimately comes down to people higher up the totem pole. Counsell's job is to take the 25 men he's given and do his best to win. If Stearns or Attanasio want to either see more of Broxton for the future, or see more of Kirk N. for potential trade, then they can trump Counsell and force him to play someone, but unless that happens, Counsell should try to win.

 

That said, I don't think he's doing a bad job of getting playing time for players. Out of the gate, all of his CF stunk and Santana got hurt. He's been force to play with a bad hand, and he's been okay doing that. Most probably wouldn't have thrown Perez into RF when he's never played there, and if the sole goal is looking at young guys, we would have seen a lot more of Flores. Kirk N. has held his own. He's not young, and is really a backup OF, but without his contributions this year, we would have looked really bad.

 

Around trade deadline, he was not looking good, but then he hit a bit of a hot streak, which hopefully will pad his numbers enough to allow us to get a "lottery ticket" for him. I too would like to see Broxton out there everyday, but I can't fault the manager for trying to keep all of his players fresh, or for doing his best to win games.

[tmwiese55]

What are yall arguing about here? Broxton is playing almost every game at this point.

[FVBrewerFan]

What are yall arguing about here?

 

I don't believe you've met. tmwiese, bf.net. bf.net, this is tmwiese.

[homer]

Stat centric (and geared for fantasy nerds) article about Broxton:

http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/the-summer-olympics-are-boring-keon-broxton-is-not/

[MKE81]

Flores has shown nothing offensively or defensively, wouldn't surprise me one bit if he never plays in the majors again after this year much less a backup for ten years.

 

Spoken like someone who stares at box scores then creates a false belief. Almost half his ABs this year he's 260/340/660 seeing inconsistent PT at the age of 24 in his first full season. He's 24. Of course he's going to have ups and downs. Playing 4yrs+ younger than his competition at AAA he was 282/376/825 approaching 600ABs. He plays all 3 OF spots. He will never be a starter but he absolutely can be a quality backup for all these reasons.

 

Regarding Davis, part of his "best numbers in career" are coming from him in the DH spot 40% of the time. If he's in the NL he's not playing as much because he's such a liability in the field. Him hitting 250 doesn't make him more valuable than Carter. Carter is on base more while putting up essentially the same power numbers, run production. Davis is right on par with his career numbers outside of his OBP being down almost 20pts.

 

Regarding Nottingham, calling him a bust is literally comical. He's 21yrs old at AA - he's done some really good things and also struggled mightily as well at times. At the same age as Diaz (20), he destroyed A then had a very good A+ the second half of last year. He should have been starting at A+. So when he gets thrown in AA you should expect him not living up to his 2015 numbers. But as he repeats AA next year (at age 21) and his numbers align more with his 2015 numbers then what's going to happen? Everyone here going to all of a sudden say that it was a good trade and Nottingham's bat will play at the MLB level? It was made blatantly clear when the trade happened that Nottingham has the skills to potentially be an average C but has a lot of work still to do. But if he didn't pan out he could move to 1b. Wait until you hear from the Brewers coaches about his defense this year before you make remarks about him being a bust there as well. Again, he's 21. He's still learning. They (including Lucroy) raved about him in Spring.

 

Regarding CF, Broxton is earning the every day job right now and that's the way it should be anyway given how dynamic he is. Perez in RF with Villar at 3b is the best lineup at this point. Kirk and Flores can float in and out here and there. There's really no discussion to have on the CF job as Broxton should have it the rest of this year. If he performs well then it'll be between him and Brinson (depending how he does in AAA and next spring). But worst case Broxton is in CF next year until Brinson is ready to take over.

[Tbadder]

Stat centric (and geared for fantasy nerds) article about Broxton:

http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/the-summer-olympics-are-boring-keon-broxton-is-not/

 

Thanks for the article--fascinating and hopeful.

[danzig6767]

Flores has shown nothing offensively or defensively, wouldn't surprise me one bit if he never plays in the majors again after this year much less a backup for ten years.

Spoken like someone who stares at box scores then creates a false belief.

Nobody has to look at box scores to see just how over-matched Flores was at the plate. The countless weakly hit balls said as much or more than his awful stats beyond a nice walk rate. Sure it's possible that if another team gives him one more chance to show that he can do more than hit weak grounders vs major league pitching, maybe he is more productive. I'd bet against it though. Baseball history is littered with guys like him who were even more productive than Flores in the minors, but couldn't cut it against big league pitchers. Given he lacks any other plus skill, Flores faces long odds of sticking in the majors.