center field

[TheCrew07]

Sure looks fine, but really is Miller Park a venue where you sacrifice power to have athletic OF in all 3 positions?

 

Great defense is always worthwhile. If you have 3 guys that combine to hit 60 HRs, does it really matter if they are all CFs? Why does one have to hit 30, another 20, and the CF 10?

 

I dont disagree at all, but our OF profile in our acquisitions under Stearns prior to Brinson (who apparently wasnt the guy Stearns wanted) wasnt for 20 HR guys.

 

I was thinking along of the lines of a Brinson with 25, and a couple in the mid to upper teens. We have plenty of players who project for 10+ HRs, there aren't any 30+ guys.

 

Regardless my point was mostly you have 8 position players, as long as the offense puts up enough runs it doesn't matter what position the HRs come from. For example if Isan Diaz makes it we could get 20+ HRs from 2B, thus needing less power from the traditional corner spots. I still believe run prevention is more important than run production, I'm all about pitching and defense.

 

I stand by my opinion that dynamic athleticism is more important than HRs... I don't want any Casey McGehee or Johnny Estrada types, not really even at C. I want players who are above average athletically for MLB, I'm perfectly fine with acquiring as many athletic SS and CF as we can, the cream will rise to the top and any positional issues will shake themselves out over time.

[pacopete4]

Homers are great and we'll hit enough if he load our lineup with high on base guys with speed who have gap to gap powers. We get that 1-8 and that's truly when we will be dangerous because we will stay away from those long slumps during the season. The next wave of outfielders we have coming gives a good shot at doing this. Some people really need to move past the HR column on the stat sheet because there are other ways to be very productive.

[danzig6767]

 

I was thinking along of the lines of a Brinson with 25, and a couple in the mid to upper teens. We have plenty of players who project for 10+ HRs, there aren't any 30+ guys.

 

Regardless my point was mostly you have 8 position players, as long as the offense puts up enough runs it doesn't matter what position the HRs come from. For example if Isan Diaz makes it we could get 20+ HRs from 2B, thus needing less power from the traditional corner spots.

Yea, in the end, all that matters is that an offense is productive overall, regardless of what positions are more productive than others.

 

You could look at the top say 5-10 most productive offenses in the game and from team to team, many will differ from each other in where their most productive and lesser productive hitters are. Same thing with pitching staffs. Some good teams may have a better rotations than others, but may also have a weaker bullpen.

 

Good teams can be put together in a variety of ways, but in the end it's mainly just about having more overall good players than the majority of other teams. That and some luck on the injury front.

[MilwaukeesBest]

Not just saying this because of the pinch hit homer last night but it is almost driving me nuts playing Kirk in centerfield each night instead of Broxton. I get if the plan is to move him later on this season but even throughout the year to stunt Keon's growth and development at the MLB level playing behind a guy that doesn't figure to be a potential assset is really puzzling to me.

 

FWIW, I'm an advocate of Keon and throughout the year I've really been pulling for him. I tend to root for the guys that have all the tools but may be consistent playing time away from breaking out.

[pacopete4]

Not just saying this because of the pinch hit homer last night but it is almost driving me nuts playing Kirk in centerfield each night instead of Broxton. I get if the plan is to move him later on this season but even throughout the year to stunt Keon's growth and development at the MLB level playing behind a guy that doesn't figure to be a potential assset is really puzzling to me.

 

FWIW, I'm an advocate of Keon and throughout the year I've really been pulling for him. I tend to root for the guys that have all the tools but may be consistent playing time away from breaking out.

 

 

You have a point but also, Keon did himself no favors by starting the year the way he did. I mean he was flat out awful. People like to bash on Kirk here but he's been far from awful, especially when considering Flores has played a ton. I do agree though that Keon should get the lions share the remainder of the year in center. I know it's nice to have another lefty in the lineup with Kirk but it's time now to see Keon play.

[Austin Tatious]

The Santana discussion is interesting here. His injury this year was very unfortunate because he continues to remain a major mystery. He's got obvious talent but we just don't know what we have.

 

Honestly, from what I have seen, he's not hustling all the time. He's strutting around but he's no Charlie Hustle, and he plays like he just took Dramamine and is drowsy. That needs fixed. I'm not the only one saying this. The broadcasters have pointed this out in real time and they bend over backwards being positive so that's saying something. He may turn into something or he may not.

 

Perez is hitting. I wouldn't call him a natural outfielder but he's a competitor. He has a knack for big hits. We are seeing results. It may not be at right field, but he's developing a track record. If you extrapolate to 500 plus at bats, his numbers would be really good.

 

Will Santana produce? We have hope. He's young and well put together. But with Ray, Brinson, Phillips and Clark coming up, and others who may develop like Orimoleye or Harrison, Santana is no slam dunk to be here long. Who knows, with his height, maybe he can be a first baseman. But we have no idea what Santana becomes. It may not be at right field but it's not crazy to project Perez as the better overall player or the better winner.

[logan82]

Yay grit.

[igor67]

I agree that Broxton needs to get ABs over Kirk, the early part of the season was so bad it masks a pretty good july and August once he got back. It's also an issue of looking at all of the CFers coming down the road and trying to give as many prospects a chance to show what they can do. Brinson hasn't had much AAA time at all, so even if you think he is going to move quickly he easily warrants starting at AAA next year, but a strong chance of pushing for a midseason promotion. That gives Reed and Wren maybe some September ABs and the start of next year. With Santana likely being back that's 3 guys roughly competing for 1 starting spot. Based on this year Wren deserves the first shot if Broxton can't establish himself.

[danzig6767]

Not just saying this because of the pinch hit homer last night but it is almost driving me nuts playing Kirk in centerfield each night instead of Broxton. I get if the plan is to move him later on this season but even throughout the year to stunt Keon's growth and development at the MLB level playing behind a guy that doesn't figure to be a potential assset is really puzzling to me.

 

FWIW, I'm an advocate of Keon and throughout the year I've really been pulling for him. I tend to root for the guys that have all the tools but may be consistent playing time away from breaking out.

You aren't alone, this has been annoying me big time for awhile and especially now that Broxton finally isn't looking over-matched at the plate. Let the guy play everyday and see what he does with consistent at bats.

[BrewCrewForever]

Broxton has looked much better during this callup and the lowering of his hands has really seemed to help and been a great adjustment. I to would like to see him playing just about everyday. Throw Kirk in there against some RHP and if Braun or Perez need a day off. But KB should be getting the majority of AB's in CF going forward IMO.

[stoutdude04]

According to Fangraphs, Carter is a 0.6 WAR player and Flores (ultimately the guy who replaced Davis' AB's) is a -1.4 WAR player.

 

Davis with all of his flaws is a 1.3 WAR player. No, he was not replaced, not that it terribly matters this year. The drop from Davis to Flores is 2.7, which is actually the same as having an extra Ryan Braun on the team (2.4 WAR)

 

But back to 1B Chris Carter, he will make $2.5M this year. Davis will make $524,500 this year.

 

That is not good asset management anyway you look at it.

 

That just isn't true thought. You can very well say Carter replaced Davis without looking at Flores...

 

What's to say Flores wouldnt have started at first base if we didn't have Carter? You cant look at two players from one side and only one player from the other side. (Does that makes sense?)

 

For example...if we had Davis in right and Flores at first...as opposed to Carter at first and Flores in the OF...the WAR changes a good amount.

 

Imo I think it was basically a trade off with improved defense.

[Tbadder]

I just think that noncompetetive teams need to give multiple-tool players the longest rope they can afford. Play Broxton.

[gregmag]

I've been rooting for Broxton since we got him. It's irrational, but no more irrational than rooting for the 2016 Brewers. I love late bloomers, guys with broad skill sets, athletic cfs, and outside-the-box trade targets.

 

I don't care much about strikeouts. Every so often a player comes along to remind me I should care a little more than I do. First half Broxton was that player. He looked as helpless as any hitter I've seen in a while. Utterly doomed.

 

To his great credit, he took his demotions as opportunities. I also love guys who know when they're sucking, work hard to get better, and take to coaching. He went down. He hit. He came back. He sucked some more. He went back down. He hit some more.

 

Now he has basically wiped out one of the lousiest starts to a season I've ever seen. On the season as a whole he's done everything but hit for average. He plays a great cf, hits for power, runs fast and smart, draws walks. Now he's even starting to show contact skills. This isn't random either. Dropping his hands has kept him on pitches. Experience seems to be keeping him in counts. He's had some solid PAs with two strikes, which was far beyond him in April.

 

It's still a tiny sample, and he could end up as a platoon guy even if he clicks, but if he can hit .240 and keep doing the other stuff well, he can start. I think he's shown enough now that giving him an extended shot is the best use of our remaining cf time this year.

[gregmag]

According to Fangraphs, Carter is a 0.6 WAR player and Flores (ultimately the guy who replaced Davis' AB's) is a -1.4 WAR player.

 

Davis with all of his flaws is a 1.3 WAR player. No, he was not replaced, not that it terribly matters this year. The drop from Davis to Flores is 2.7, which is actually the same as having an extra Ryan Braun on the team (2.4 WAR)

 

But back to 1B Chris Carter, he will make $2.5M this year. Davis will make $524,500 this year.

 

That is not good asset management anyway you look at it.

 

That just isn't true thought. You can very well say Carter replaced Davis without looking at Flores...

 

What's to say Flores wouldnt have started at first base if we didn't have Carter? You cant look at two players from one side and only one player from the other side. (Does that makes sense?)

 

For example...if we had Davis in right and Flores at first...as opposed to Carter at first and Flores in the OF...the WAR changes a good amount.

 

Imo I think it was basically a trade off with improved defense.

Very good points, and you can also say that if we didn't trade Davis, Perez probably wouldn't have gotten a real shot. These rf starts have been key for him. If Davis is still here, no way does Counsell indulge the facially bizarre idea of giving Perez a bunch of starts in rf. He just gets some 3b starts between Hill's departure and Arcia's arrival, plus fill-ins for injuries. That probably isn't enough to make him a serious candidate for regular playing time going forward. Stearns' love of multiposition guys, and Counsell's willingness to move guys around, make these "what ifs" complicated.

[pacopete4]

Plus Braun got to move back to LF where he's just better. Not that he was a terrible RF but he's at least average in LF defensively.

[Crash2303]

At the time of this thread's original post, Niewenhuis was hitting a paltry .196/.309/.344 on the season and was in the midst of a 3 for 35 slump- yikes, precipitating the "end his tenure" now post. Knock on wood, but in the 14 games played since this thread was started Kirk has an OPS of 1.111 (.412/.698 split). Has he been hawking brewerfan recently? he's raised his traditional split to .214/.327/.405 and continues to start the majority of games in CF.

 

many thought that one way or another he'd be gone by Aug. 1. I am assuming the only reason he is still playing so much is the hope that he is able to be a waiver wire deal. But, even if he continues to hit well in the next couple of weeks- do you think whatever we would actually get for him is worth the missed opportunity to see what Broxton and Wren can do at this point (as an audition for next year) in CF?

 

Consistent PT in September is going to be few and far between with lots of guys up and next year (assuming Braun/Santana in corners) will be crowded for PT as well between them and Liriano, Flores, Reed. Inevitably we'll have to part ways with at least one, maybe two of those talented OF at some point next season, (especially if Brinson/Phillips turn it on) and it would be a shame to part with one of them and see them take off with another team without having given them significant MLB PT to evaluate them. These next two months need to be Wren & Broxton's time!

[Devinep]

Yes this should be Wren and Broxtons time, but I definitely wouldn't include Flores in a discussion of talented players since he has no talent.

 

Just get a low level prospect for Kirk and use playing time for the future

[Crash2303]

Flores is only 24. He has projectile tools and has succeeded throughout the minors in spite of being young for his level at each stage.he had produced little this season but he has enough of a track record to see what he can do next season especially having this extended major league experience to learn from. Adjusting to big leagues more often takes some time. sometimrs it can be a curse being brought up too early as people give up on u if u don't produce right away a la Gomez, Perez and sardinas.

[ELCABALLO45]

Keon Broxton last 10 games...

 

.414/.500/.793/1.293

 

Since June 1st..

 

.293 .406 .534 .940.

[danzig6767]

Flores is only 24. He has projectile tools

I don't see a single major league projectable tool for Flores.

 

He's a corner OF with zero power potential. He hits for a low average because he makes weak contact so often. He has mediocre speed. He's not a very plus defender. So what exactly are all of these tools which you see?

 

Flores should be extremely thankful that somehow he's managed to stay on the big league roster this long and thus getting much bigger checks than he should be getting in the minors. Why he hasn't been DFA yet is baffling to me.

[MKE81]

According to Fangraphs, Carter is a 0.6 WAR player and Flores (ultimately the guy who replaced Davis' AB's) is a -1.4 WAR player.

 

Davis with all of his flaws is a 1.3 WAR player. No, he was not replaced, not that it terribly matters this year. The drop from Davis to Flores is 2.7, which is actually the same as having an extra Ryan Braun on the team (2.4 WAR)

 

But back to 1B Chris Carter, he will make $2.5M this year. Davis will make $524,500 this year.

 

That is not good asset management anyway you look at it.

 

For the record I do like what Carter has brought to the table for $2.5M but he isn't a replacement for an OF at all. I could certainly argue that Stearns won the 1B switch from Lind to Carter plus Peralta.

 

Back on topic, I do like that we have gone to a guy like a Brinson for our CF spot as he is legitimate 5 tool guy vs our Flores/wavier brigade guys so it does look like our OF talent is on the upswing in a big way. Im less optimistic on Clark and Ray as I don't see either as a CF, and with Brinson and Phillips ahead of them, I dont think there is chance they play CF in Milwaukee baring injury.

You can cite WAR all you want but it's a broken statistic. Flores didn't replace Davis either. Broxton, Kirk, Flores (and Rymer) were fighting for the starting CF job and the backup spots. Santana replaced Davis, which is why Braun slid back to LF. Anyone with eyes can see Santana, 23, has flaws and needs to correct things (maintain patience at plate and not fall back to old habits - lazy at times in the field). But if you can't see his abilities and how a well-rounded player is greater than solely a power hitter then it is what it is.

 

Carter makes 2M more but lets not pretend that 2M makes a difference this year in payroll. And Carter absolutely replaced Davis' power in the lineup. You don't have to literally play the position Davis played to replace his power. We lost Davis and his power in the lineup and replaced him with Carter and his power. We upgraded defensively over Davis as well in the process (every OF that's played this year was an upgrade over him). If we had a DH spot I'd have zero issues with Davis on the team even though his OBP isn't good. But his defense is such a liability - the final month last year team's were running the bases 110% on every ball hit to LF, including 1st to 3rd on balls right at him. Taking an extra base has a huge impact on the game and it became insanely evident the final month last year that he absolutely needed to be traded regardless of how much power he has.

 

Back on topic, Brinson was a great add because his defense is a main stay in CF. Phillips can easily slide to RF with his arm. I agree that Clark/Ray will not have a chance in CF with both Brinson/Phillips ahead of them. I don't think they'll be able to stick there anyway similar to Diaz moving to 2b. Those guys can easily handle LF though. I like Santana and see a lot of potential in him but I also prefer the overall skill set/ability of the other guys over him including better contact. I don't think Santana as part of the long-term future but we won't know for sure unless he stays relatively healthy next year. He absolutely needs to start in RF and show what he's capable of - if everyone else coming up progresses just fine then Santana is trade bait or they're trade bait. But at 24 next year he needs all the ABs he can get.

 

Broxton flashed in spring then again when demoted to AAA - he didn't look comfortable at all with the Brewers. He's hasn't looked comfortable all season until the past 10-11 games. But a dynamic dude like him who's gaining confidence can be a difference maker. I'll take Broxton over Davis every day of the week because he's well-rounded and has the tools to impact every facet of the game. He needs to start in CF the rest of the season and have Kirk/Flores fill in RF or backup for a night off. Broxton should be starting in CF next year too if they're not ready to have Brinson up. Braun/Broxton/Santana with Reed/Flores (if go 5 OF). Future looks bright in CF though.

 

Regarding Flores in the recent posts, he's absolutely a MLB backup talent. He's very young and this is his first extended PT at this level. He doesn't flash plus for any tool but he doesn't need too in order to have a 10yr career. He's plenty capable of filling in here and there putting together good ABs while playing solid defense at all 3 spots. He's not a starter. I think he'll turn out to be a quality backup with us or someone else. Solid in the field, decent enough arm, has a nice line to line contact swing and understanding of the strike zone. The more experience he gets the better he'll become. Plus he's a lefty, which is always nice to have off the bench.

[Ennder]

Khris Davis was never going to bring any value to a team in a rebuild directly so what replaced him in WAR is completely meaningless.

 

The question with Davis is always going to be would we have gotten more for him if we had waited and traded him at the deadline or after this year. I think we probably would have as he is having a decent year.

[Outlander]

Flores has shown nothing offensively or defensively, wouldn't surprise me one bit if he never plays in the majors again after this year much less a backup for ten years.

[Invader3K]

Is Khris Davis going to turn into Stearns' Nelson Cruz? I kind of doubt it, but a franchise can't win every single trade.

[trwi7]

Davis has a .295 OBP this year. Why are some so worked up about him being traded? He's Mark Trumbo. Guys like that don't have a lot of trade value and just aren't very valuable players.