Ichiro

[torts]

the fact that he's had more than 4,000!!!!! hits in his career makes him one of the greatest players of all time. show me anyone who is even close to that including US minor league seasons (since thats always the argument that his 4000+ hits are "not the same"). Derek Jeter I think might be the only one? the people who are over 3000 hits almost never played in the minors prior to the majors. there is no one we can compare him to other than Rose and Cobb in terms of hitting. he's about to hit 3000 in 16 years. he did it quicker, and older, than Jeter, too.

[sveumrules]

I think the only players with 4,000 professional hits are Rose, Ichiro, Cobb, Aaron, Musial and Julio Franco if I'm not mistaken.

 

Based on just his stats in the US Ichiro might not be a "top 50 player all time" (which no matter how many numbers you use to make your list, it is still just your opinion), but including his performance record in Japan plus extra credit for being the first Japanese position player to experience success in America I'd probably place him on the back end of my personal top 50 list.

 

Here's something that isn't an opinion, Ichiro is the only player in MLB history to get 200 hits in ten consecutive seasons. One of one.

[torts]

I think the only players with 4,000 professional hits are Rose, Ichiro, Cobb, Aaron, Musial and Julio Franco if I'm not mistaken.

 

Franco only has 3870... over 32!!!! years. thats insane, 32 years! but you're right, the rest are all over 4000... and four of them are considered to be hands down the best, right? not sure why Ichiro wouldn't fit in with them as a top all time baseball player.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I don't think it's arguable that Ichiro is an "all time great". But he's absolutely not top 20, and I think it's pretty tough to put him top 50. He cranked out a ton of singles, and played great defense. His OBP skills were good (not great) he stole a good amount of bases, and he didn't hit for any power. The lack of OBP and the absolute lack of XBH skills just doesn't put him in the all-time elites.

 

The counting stats are great, they're a nice talking point....they'll absolutely get him in the hall of fame (and deservedly), I'm not arguing that he doesn't belong there at all. I just don't see a guy who quite cracks the top 50.

[torts]

if were looking at his full picture ichiro had 4300 hits, 560 doubles, 115 triples, 231 homers, 1280 rbis and 709 SBs. those totals are nuts. the only number thats higher in japan year after year than the US is the homeruns, but he also played in seattle.. every other category was pretty much in line with the numbers he had state-side. he's only not a top player of all time because he spent the first decade of his career in Japan, instead of the MLB. difference from pretty much any other international player is that his talent crossed leagues, and never waned.

[StearnsFTW]

Always loved watching him play. The way he seemed to uncork those vicious throws from RF with little to no effort always amazed me.

 

Not sure where I'd rank him all-time. His 10 year run was pretty impressive, averaging about 5.5 WAR per season -- actually really similar to Jim Edmonds in that sense.

 

Ichiro will most likely be enshrined on the first ballot to the HoF while Edmonds received less than 5% on his first ballot.

 

Nice throw but it isn't much further than throwing from 3b to 1b.

 

That's an interesting interpretation of that play.

[logan82]

Always loved watching him play. The way he seemed to uncork those vicious throws from RF with little to no effort always amazed me.

 

Not sure where I'd rank him all-time. His 10 year run was pretty impressive, averaging about 5.5 WAR per season -- actually really similar to Jim Edmonds in that sense.

 

Ichiro will most likely be enshrined on the first ballot to the HoF while Edmonds received less than 5% on his first ballot.

 

Nice throw but it isn't much further than throwing from 3b to 1b.

 

That's an interesting interpretation of that play.

It's a good throw but it is from shallow right. Go to the 0:44 mark.

[StearnsFTW]

I agree it's pretty shallow. It was an absolute laser beam though. And literally perfectly placed.

 

Impressed the hell out of me.

[The stache]

Exactly. Succinctly put.

 

I don't think it's arguable that Ichiro is an "all time great". But he's absolutely not top 20, and I think it's pretty tough to put him top 50. He cranked out a ton of singles, and played great defense. His OBP skills were good (not great) he stole a good amount of bases, and he didn't hit for any power. The lack of OBP and the absolute lack of XBH skills just doesn't put him in the all-time elites.

 

The counting stats are great, they're a nice talking point....they'll absolutely get him in the hall of fame (and deservedly), I'm not arguing that he doesn't belong there at all. I just don't see a guy who quite cracks the top 50.

[The stache]

Here's something that isn't an opinion, Ichiro is the only player in MLB history to get 200 hits in ten consecutive seasons. One of one.

 

Oh, come on. The reason Ichiro got over 200 hits in ten straight seasons is because he averaged 734 plate appearances a season between 2001 and 2010. And, because he walks so little, he averaged a whopping 685 at bats each season. A Major League hitter can hit .292 with 685 at bats, and still get 200 hits.

 

In several of those seasons, he played at a high level, knocking out singles at an unprecedented rate, and hitting for high average in the process. In 2004, for example, he hit .372, winning his second and final batting title. Great average. But of his now single-season Major League record 262 hits, 225 were singles. He hit 24 doubles, 5 triples, and 8 home runs....in 704 at bats. That is a perfect example of why he is not a top 50 player in baseball history. 37 extra base hits in 762 plate appearances!

 

What about the other nine seasons where he got 200 hits? Let's look at them. In 2003, he hit .312. Good season average wise, nothing special. But he got 200 hits (212 to be exact) because he came to the plate 725 times! He got 679 at bats to get those 200 hits with.

 

2005? The sixth season of his ten in a row. The "streak" should have been stopped. He hit .303. Yet, again, he got 200 + hits, again (206 to be exact). Why? Because of the sheer number of times he came to the plate. He came to bat 739 times, and his 679 at bats, again, lead the American League. Know how many players in the history of Major League Baseball have had 200 hits with a .303 batting average? Three. Taylor Douthit had 201 hits in 1930, and Doc Cramer had 200 hits in 1940. They had 664 and 661 at bats, respectively.

 

Ichiro hit .310 in 2008. Again, a pretty good season, from a purely average perspective. He led the American League with 213 hits. At that average, one would need 646 at bats to get 200 hits. Ichiro came to the plate 749 times; 686 at bats. And his extra base tallies? 20 doubles, 7 triples, and 6 home runs. 33 extra base hits....in 686 at bats. His SLG (.386) barely cleared his OBP (.361). He was, basically, a Major League Average hitting in 2008 with a 102 OPS +. Hardly a season that should warrant any kind of wonder. But because he was a leadoff hitter, and had a gargantuan number of plate appearances, he kept his "streak" alive. One single at a time.

 

Most guys hitting .310, or .312, aren't going to get 200 hits. And they sure as hell aren't going to get there hitting .303. But Ichiro did. But don't try to convince me that this is some remarkable feat. If Tony Gwynn had averaged even 650 at bats between 1984 and 1997, he'd have hit for 200 + in fourteen straight seasons. And, unlike Ichiro's two batting titles (which is still good, mind you), Gwynn won eight titles. And, his offensive production was 35% above Major League average, while Ichiro's was merely 17% (135 OPS + vs 117 OPS +)

 

I think the only players with 4,000 professional hits are Rose, Ichiro, Cobb, Aaron, Musial and Julio Franco if I'm not mistaken.

 

Franco only has 3870... over 32!!!! years. thats insane, 32 years! but you're right, the rest are all over 4000... and four of them are considered to be hands down the best, right? not sure why Ichiro wouldn't fit in with them as a top all time baseball player.

 

Because Ichiro is so incredibly limited as a hitter. That's why. And comparing Ichiro as a hitter to Ty Cobb, Hank Aaron and Stan Musial is simply foolish. There is no comparison. Ty Cobb has a 168 career OPS +, 10th best all-time. Stan Musial's 158 in 15th best, and Hank Aaron's 155 is 23rd best. Ichiro's 108 OPS + is 788th all-time.

 

He's never been a true offensive weapon in the Major Leagues. He's been a great pure hitter, there is no question. Nobody gets to 3,000 hits without being just that. But all he's done is hit singles. And, when there are so many players who have played the game at an incredibly high level, and have done so much more than just hit singles, you're not going to be one of the top 50 players of all-time.

 

There have been 27 players in Major League history to have 2,995 or more hits. Of these men, Ichiro has by far the fewest extra base hits. 554 extra base hits in 10,305 plate appearances. Next lowest on the totem pole is Rod Carew at 649. That's 17% more extra base hits than Ichiro. Only, Carew won seven batting titles, and was, in his prime, one of the premier hitters in the Major from an OPS + standpoint. Carew led the Majors in 1977 with a 178 OPS +, 10 points higher than the next best finisher, Reggie Smith of the Dodgers (168). Carew was also top 5 in the American in OPS + five times. Ichiro never made the top 10 in his league in OPS +. Not once.

 

Here's his 2001 to 2010 run, when he had 200 + hits in each season. Here's where he finished in the American League in OPS + each year:

 

2001 22nd 126

2002 28th 120

2003 40th 112

2004 16th 130

2005 33rd 113

2006 48th 106

2007 21st 122

2008 51st 102

2009 18th 129

2010 30th 113

 

OPS + is, in my opinion, one of the very best metrics for measuring offensive production, as it weighs a player's ability to get on base, and their power production. That figure is then adjusted based on the ballparks they have played in. It is a simple comparative metric for players in the same season (again, a 100 OPS + is Major League average).

 

Ichiro finished in the top twenty hitters in the American League twice during his ten year peak. He never even made it into the top 15; in 2004, he was 16th best in the American League, and in 2009, he was 18th best. In 2004, his 130 OPS + was 34th best in the Major Leagues, and in 2009, his 129 OPS + was the 37th best hitter in the Major Leagues. I'm sorry, but Ichiro, at no point in his career, was one of the top 30 best overall hitters in the Majors. How, then, can he be considered one of the 50 best players in Major League Baseball history? Yes, he gets some additional consideration for his base stealing. But they don't nearly make up for the incredible lack of power he's displayed since he came up in 2001.

 

if were looking at his full picture ichiro had 4300 hits, 560 doubles, 115 triples, 231 homers, 1280 rbis and 709 SBs. those totals are nuts. the only number thats higher in japan year after year than the US is the home runs, but he also played in seattle.. every other category was pretty much in line with the numbers he had state-side. he's only not a top player of all time because he spent the first decade of his career in Japan, instead of the MLB. difference from pretty much any other international player is that his talent crossed leagues, and never waned.

 

His talent has never waned? Between 2001 and 2010, he was a fine pure hitter. The last six seasons, he's been a .272 hitter. His OPS + between 2011 and 2016 has been 85. He's been 15% below Major League average as a hitter these last six years. To put this in perspective, Ozzie Smith had a career 87 OPS +. He's been the Wizard of Oz with the stick for better than the last half decade. He hit .229 in 398 at bats last season. If the Marlins weren't so awful last season, he wouldn't have cracked the lineup, and he sure wouldn't be chasing 3,000 hits now. He's been worth 5.4 WAR these last six seasons, worth less than 1 win per season. He's not even Major League starter average, by that metric.

 

He's rebounded nicely this year, no doubt. He's hitting singles at a furious rate (his OBP, .419, is higher than his SLG, which is an anemic .399). 8 doubles and 1 triple in 178 at bats. But he's sputtering to the mark the same way that Pete Rose sputtered to breaking Ty Cobb's all-time hits mark.

 

And stop combining his Japanese numbers and Major League numbers. Just...stop. They're completely irrelevant. Two different leagues, two different levels of competition. He had a .943 career OPS in Japan, which is 180 points higher than his career .763 OPS here in the bigs. He homered once every 30.7 at bats in Japan 118 home runs in 3,619 at bats). In the Majors? He homers once every 84.4 at bats (113 home runs in 9.540 at bats). Apples and oranges.

 

The bottom line is that Ichiro will be a Hall of Famer. He'll get his 3,000 hits, though he probably should have been out of the Majors after last year's 57 OPS +. But is he one of the top 50 players in Major League history? Nope. Not even close, really. And that's not my "opinion". The statement is supported by statistical analysis. That analysis, against the immortals of the game, shows that Ichiro, though a great pure hitter, brought very little to the table as an offensive performer. He just doesn't measure up.

[clancyphile]

I would argue Ichiro brought a fair bit to the table.

 

He is one of the all-time greats in hitting for average (73rd all-time). He had 506 career stolen bases, good for 36th on the career stolen bases list. He's third in all-time fielding percentage among right fielders, and 47th in assists all-time from that position.

 

Ichiro had an 80 "hit for average" tool, and he was, I think, about 65-70 in terms of speed and defense. One of the top 20 leadoff hitters of all time.

[pacopete4]

Ichiro has made the most out of his physical talents.

[sveumrules]

Oh, come on. The reason Ichiro got over 200 hits in ten straight seasons is because he averaged 734 plate appearances a season between 2001 and 2010. And, because he walks so little, he averaged a whopping 685 at bats each season.

 

So a player gets knocked for being the best leadoff hitter in MLB for a decade straight? From 2001-10 Ichiro tallied 7,339 plate appearances with the next closest being Jeter over 350 PAs behind at 6,983. If anything I give Ichiro a slight bump for his remarkable consistency.

 

If Tony Gwynn had averaged even 650 at bats between 1984 and 1997, he'd have hit for 200 + in fourteen straight seasons. And, unlike Ichiro's two batting titles (which is still good, mind you), Gwynn won eight titles. And, his offensive production was 35% above Major League average, while Ichiro's was merely 17% (135 OPS + vs 117 OPS

 

I'm happy you bring up Gwynn because he is another of my all time favorites, but I think put Ichiro ahead of him on my top 50. In regards to PAs there are essentially three reasons Gwynn didn't match Ichiro; he walked more, he batted 3rd most of his career and he got hurt. I'll readily concede that Gwynn is a superior hitter to Ichiro. Ichiro is the superior defender and baserunner, though. Which is reflected in their eerily similar career fWARs of 58.2 & 65.0 and their peak WAR7s of 43.8 & 41.1.

 

And stop combining his Japanese numbers and Major League numbers. Just...stop. They're completely irrelevant.

 

If we are talking about the 50 best players ever I believe they are completely relevant. Would you place Josh Gibson on your top 50 list? He doesn't have the statistical record to support it, but any such list would clearly be incomplete without him and possibly Pop Lloyd & Oscar Charleston as well, not to mention serious consideration for Buzz Arltett who was the Babe Ruth of the PCL & put up a 138 OPS+ in his lone major league season at age 32.

 

But back to Ichiro. He debuted in MLB at age 27 winning the batting/stolen base crowns en route to a 6.0 fWAR season, his team shocked baseball by winning a record 116 games and was named AL ROY/MVP. Prior to that he had put up seven straight monster seasons with a career Japanese line of 353/421/522, compared to 350/381/457 in his 2001 debut & a career best of 372/414/455 in 2004. Unless your top 50 players list is a straight WAR or OPS+ leaderboard it involves some amount of opinion, and it is my opinion based on the strength of his debut & record prior to arrival that had he been able to come to MLB four or five years earlier after two to three years of demonstrated success in Japan he could easily have another 20 WAR to his name.

 

The bottom line is that Ichiro will be a Hall of Famer. He'll get his 3,000 hits, though he probably should have been out of the Majors after last year's 57 OPS +. But is he one of the top 50 players in Major League history? Nope. Not even close, really. And that's not my "opinion". The statement is supported by statistical analysis. That analysis, against the immortals of the game, shows that Ichiro, though a great pure hitter, brought very little to the table as an offensive performer. He just doesn't measure up.

 

Is Ichiro a top 50 hitter in MLB history? Of course not. But there is more to baseball than hitting & Ichiro gets a huge bump for being one of the better baserunners & defenders in baseball history. I believe the original statement which started the thread in this direction came form nate82, "Definitely a top 50 player. Where in the top 50 I am not sure but he is a sure top 50 player in MLB history."

 

For me he is easily a top 50 baseball player of all time and the starting RF & nine hitter (of course Rickey leads off) on my "Own Two Eyes" team. Even if you want to limit the scope to just the top 50 players in MLB history I think there's a strong case to be made for him at the back end of the list, which is still an opinion no matter how much statistical analysis you have used in arriving at yours.

[homer]

To truly compares Ichiro to his peers you should compare them from age 27 onward. Obviously he's a hall of famer and more than likely would be mentioned with Carew and Gwynn, etc. had he played his whole career in the states.

[Funketown]

For reference:

 

Carew, age 27-39: 7,566 PA's, 61.0 bWAR, 5.7 bWAR/600 PA's, .336/.407/.440/.847 (OPS+ 137)

Gwynn, age 27-39: 7,390 PA's, 46.8 bWAR, 4.6 bWAR/600 PA's, .343/.393/.470/.863 (OPS+ 135)

Ichiro: age 27-39: 9,279 PA's, 58.6 bWAR, 4.6 bWAR/600 PA's, .319/.361/.414/.775 (OPS+ 111)

 

I'm quite rusty on any changes to these metrics (if there are any) over the past five or so years. But, this would seem to illustrate that (i) on a per-plate appearance basis, Gwynn and Carew were far more valuable at the plate than Ichiro and (ii) Ichiro provided a huge amount of value to his team by staying healthy and getting an absurd amount of PA's. He appeared in an average of 159 games in this time span, much of which we remember as the leadoff man in Seattle. Ichiro also gains somewhere around 10-15 bWAR on Gwynn due to defense; but given that Gwynn was before my time and I don't put too much confidence in the defensive metrics from back then, perhaps you can argue that's an overstatement.

 

Hypothetically speaking, given that Ichiro was a mid .900's OPS'er in Japan since he turned 20, it's probably not unreasonable to estimate that had he been in the US, he could have tacked on another 30 career WAR if he made the majors at say, 21 years old. That would put him solidly in the top 20 outfielders and well within the top 50 batters of all time, if that's your measuring stick.

[chewy522]

To say that your opinions are fact because they are supported by empirical evidence is faulty because everybody bases their opinions from factual evidence. As stated by other posters before, people weigh things differently. When you listed all the limitations such as his plate appearances, I immediately thought about his amazing durability. Of all people, fans of Packers quarterbacks should know how valuable durability is. This is routinely, in my opinion, an undervalued trait when looking at athletes. Durability maintains stability in an organization. It doesn't equate to winning, but it helps.

 

I'm not sure if I have Ichiro in my top 50, but all this information has to be valued and that value is somewhat based on opinion. Unfortunately for Ichiro, much of his value came from areas that are more difficult to measure such as durability, leadership, work ethic, and even defense. We can count how many runners he threw out, but it is much more difficult to count the number of runners who didn't try to take an extra base because of his reputation. This preventative value also helped his team win games. It's similar to the difficulty of comparing great cornerbacks because the best ones are never tested. How much does it influence a teams chance of winning when we only throw to one side of the field.

[1992casey]

OPS+ is a cool stat, and it's a great place to start when comparing players of different eras. In many cases, OPS+ can be enough. For instance, when looking at how Ron Santo compared to Hall of Fame third basemen, his OPS+ fell right in the middle of the pack. It was reasonable to use the stat to indicate that Ron qualified offensively.

 

But it does carry the same main flaw as OPS, i.e. it doesn't weigh OBP enough. In Ichiro's case, that's pretty significant.

[logan82]

OPS+ is a cool stat, and it's a great place to start when comparing players of different eras. In many cases, OPS+ can be enough. For instance, when looking at how Ron Santo compared to Hall of Fame third basemen, his OPS+ fell right in the middle of the pack. It was reasonable to use the stat to indicate that Ron qualified offensively.

 

But it does carry the same main flaw as OPS, i.e. it doesn't weigh OBP enough. In Ichiro's case, that's pretty significant.

That really doesn't help the argument for Ichiro. His OBP was pretty pedestrian. Ichiro's batting line in MLB compares pretty favorably with Jason Kendall.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Ichiro is a pretty interesting case of rate stats vs. Counting stats, and old school stats vs advanced metrics.

 

He has great counting stats, because he played a long time, and he never got injured, and he has a great batting average, because he hit a ton of singles, and got a lot of stolen bases, and scored a good amount of runs. Those things are impressive, and I do think longevity is worth mentioning when you talk about an all time elite ballplayer, but I think that's kind of far down the list.

 

Is Sandy Koufax elite? I'd put him up there, and he played about a decade.

 

200 hits a year is a great feat, but what is the context? Hank Aaron or Babe Ruth never did that. They also got walked a lot, they hit a ton of homeruns, were massive run producers, and didn't hit slap singles, and didn't hit leadoff.

 

Ichiro has 5 seasons where he OPS'd over .800, and never over .900 (in MLB) A corner outfielder who NEVER had an OPS+ higher than 130 (to me) is not an "elite" offensive player. He's a good (maybe even great) singles hitter, who will smack an occasional double and triple (and even more rare homer), but he's absolutely not an elite offensive force.

 

I just don't see "top 50 player all time" value in a .775 OPS hitter who plays corner outfield.

[sveumrules]

If you frame Ichiro by his two weakest skills (OPS, position) and leave out his three biggest attributes (playing time, defense & baserunning) it's hard to see the argument. But let's start with OPS, or rather wRC+ because it'a little more well rounded & it's what FG has on their multi season leaderboards.

 

During his 10 year peak from 2001-10 Ichiro had a 115 wRC+, leaving him in a tie for 110th in MLB during the time. For reference, Russell Branyan had a 114 wRC+ (arrived at in the complete opposite fashion of course) during the same stretch. Not necessarily all that impressive.

 

However, as mentioned earlier Ichiro came to the plate over 350 times more than the next closest batter over that stretch, good for an MLB best 225 replacement runs. Combine that with his rate line & FG credits him with 142 batting runs, good for 41st during the decade. Add in his baserunning value, pegged at an MLB best 75 runs and his total offensive contribution comes in at 217 runs, good for the 21st best mark in MLB.

 

And while he was a RF (-57 run positional adjustment), he was an excellent one (+125 runs saved, 3rd in MLB among all players) for an overall positive defensive contribution. Add it all up; batting, baserunning, position, fielding and playing time, & the corner outfielder with a 775 OPS comes in 4th in WAR for the decade behind Pujols, ARod and hilariously enough Bonds who only played six of the ten seasons.

 

For me there are about 25 inner circle Hall of Fame players. C: Gibson, Berra, Bench. 1B: Gehrig, Foxx, Musial. 2B: Hornsby, Robinson, Morgan. 3B: Brooks, Schmidt, Brett. SS: Honus, Ripken, ARod. LF: Williams, Rickey, Bonds. CF: Cobb, Mantle, Mays. RF: Ruth, Aaron, Robinson, Clemente. A case could easily be made for about 50 different guys to fill the next 25 spots. With a borderline case on MLB numbers alone plus the seven seasons of dominance in Japan, Ichiro is an easy "hai" for me.

[Baldkin]

If you frame Ichiro by his two weakest skills (OPS, position) and leave out his three biggest attributes (playing time, defense & baserunning) it's hard to see the argument. But let's start with OPS, or rather wRC+ because it'a little more well rounded & it's what FG has on their multi season leaderboards.

 

During his 10 year peak from 2001-10 Ichiro had a 115 wRC+, leaving him in a tie for 110th in MLB during the time. For reference, Russell Branyan had a 114 wRC+ (arrived at in the complete opposite fashion of course) during the same stretch. Not necessarily all that impressive.

 

However, as mentioned earlier Ichiro came to the plate over 350 times more than the next closest batter over that stretch, good for an MLB best 225 replacement runs. Combine that with his rate line & FG credits him with 142 batting runs, good for 41st during the decade. Add in his baserunning value, pegged at an MLB best 75 runs and his total offensive contribution comes in at 217 runs, good for the 21st best mark in MLB.

 

And while he was a RF (-57 run positional adjustment), he was an excellent one (+125 runs saved, 3rd in MLB among all players) for an overall positive defensive contribution. Add it all up; batting, baserunning, position, fielding and playing time, & the corner outfielder with a 775 OPS comes in 4th in WAR for the decade behind Pujols, ARod and hilariously enough Bonds who only played six of the ten seasons.

 

For me there are about 25 inner circle Hall of Fame players. C: Gibson, Berra, Bench. 1B: Gehrig, Foxx, Musial. 2B: Hornsby, Robinson, Morgan. 3B: Brooks, Schmidt, Brett. SS: Honus, Ripken, ARod. LF: Williams, Rickey, Bonds. CF: Cobb, Mantle, Mays. RF: Ruth, Aaron, Robinson, Clemente. A case could easily be made for about 50 different guys to fill the next 25 spots. With a borderline case on MLB numbers alone plus the seven seasons of dominance in Japan, Ichiro is an easy "hai" for me.

 

Everyone always forgets Tris Speaker and Mel Ott.

[sveumrules]

Yeah; Speaker, Ott & DiMaggio probably all belong in that inner circle too, maybe even Rose though he's obviously not a HOFer. My second twenty five would probably break down as C: Piazza, IRod. 1B: Pujols, Big Hurt. 2B: Collins, Lajoie, Alomar 3B: Mathews, Boggs, Molitor, Chipper. SS: Pop Lloyd, Ozzie, Larkin. LF: Yaz, Raines. CF: Speaker, DiMaggio, Charleston, Griffey. RF: Ott, Arlett, Kaline, Ichiro. UTIL: Rose.

 

The 50-75 group for me would probably be C: Campy, Fisk, Carter. 1B: Greenberg, McCovey, Stargell, Bagwell, Miggy. 2B: Gehringer, Carew. 3B: Dick Allen. SS: Appling, Arky, Banks, Yount, Jeter. LF: Shoeless, Simmons, Manny. CF: Andruw. RF: Reggie, Gwynn, Walker. DH: Edgar, Ortiz.

[The stache]

This whole "what if" line of thinking is ridiculous.

 

What if Ichiro had played those first seven seasons in the Majors.

Yeah. What if Tony Conigliaro hadn't gotten beaned in the head. He might have hit 500 home runs.

What it Herb Score hadn't been hit by a line drive. He might have struck out 4,000 batters.

What if Roberto Clemente hadn't gotten on that plane? He might have gotten 3,500 to 4,000 hits.

What if the color barrier had been broken earlier? Jackie Robinson might have gotten 3,000 hits.

 

Forget what he did in Japan. It is irrelevant. How many times do I have to say that? Their professional baseball league is somewhere between our AA and AAA. Hey, why don't we just start tacking on the numbers of every player in AA and AAA when we're talking about what they've done in the bigs. Sure!

 

It blows my mind how people are so quick to point out what he did in Japan, but completely ignore the massive drop he realized in offensive production once he got here.

 

He was never....NEVER....one of the top 15 hitters in his league by OPS. That he hit .372 in a season, and couldn't crack the top 15 speaks volumes about how limited an offensive player he was.

 

He was a lead off hitter. So what? How does that excuse the fact that he was nothing but a dink hitter for his career? Lead hitters can't have any power? Even if he's not hitting home runs, with the incredible speed Ichiro has, he could only muster 349 doubles, and 92 triples in over 10,000 plate appearances?

 

242 hits as a rookie. 34 doubles.

262 hits in 2004. 24 doubles.

224 hits in 2006. 20 doubles.

238 hits in 2007. 22 doubles.

213 hits in 2008. 20 doubles.

 

I'm sorry, but that's pathetic. And this is in his prime.

 

Here are not fifty, but sixty Major League players who had vastly superior careers to Ichiro, and if Ichiro Suzuki is on your all-time list before any of these men, you need to rework your list. Note that this is not based on WAR, though there are many players with a higher career WAR than Ichiro. There are also players with a lower career WAR, or a career WAR very close to Ichiros, that blow Ichiro out of the water as players. Men like Shoeless Joe Jackson, Hank Greenberg, Ed Walsh or Johnny Mize. Men who had shorter careers because of either injury, or because of military service during the war.

 

Ty Cobb

Babe Ruth

Hank Aaron

Ted Williams

Walter Johnson

Christy Mathewson

Mike Schmidt

George Brett

Roberto Clemente

Willie Mays

Mel Ott

Lou Gehrig

Joe DiMaggio

Mickey Mantle

Tom Seaver

Warren Spahn

Steve Carlton

Al Kaline

Bob Gibson

Stan Musial

Bob Feller

Eddie Collins

Lefty Grove

Barry Bonds

Rogers Hornsby

Frank Robinson

Jimmie Foxx

Carl Yastrzemski

Honus Wagner

Eddie Mathews

Honus Wagner

Tris Speaker

Eddie Plank

Cy Young

Napolean Lajoie

Shoeless Joe Jackson

Johnny Bench

Johnny Mize

Randy Johnson

Tris Speaker

Rickey Henderson

Pedro Martinez

Greg Maddux

Sandy Koufax

Ken Griffey Jr

Cap Anson

Alex Rodriguez

Hank Greenberg

Ed Walsh

Miguel Cabrera

Grover Cleveland Alexander

Ernie Banks

Al Simmons

Duke Snider

Reggie Jackson

Roger Clemens

Jackie Robinson

Nolan Ryan

Albert Pujols

Joe Morgan

[The stache]

Um, pitchers? Hello?

 

Walter Johnson

Cy Young

Christy Mathewson

Pete Alexander

Warren Spahn

Lefty Grove

Steve Carlton

Tom Seaver

Pedro Martinez

Roger Clemens

Greg Maddux

Bob Gibson

Sandy Koufax

 

Just for starters

 

 

For me there are about 25 inner circle Hall of Fame players. C: Gibson, Berra, Bench. 1B: Gehrig, Foxx, Musial. 2B: Hornsby, Robinson, Morgan. 3B: Brooks, Schmidt, Brett. SS: Honus, Ripken, ARod. LF: Williams, Rickey, Bonds. CF: Cobb, Mantle, Mays. RF: Ruth, Aaron, Robinson, Clemente. A case could easily be made for about 50 different guys to fill the next 25 spots. With a borderline case on MLB numbers alone plus the seven seasons of dominance in Japan, Ichiro is an easy "hai" for me.

[The stache]

Is this a discussion of the 50 greatest Major League players in history, or the 50 greatest baseball players?

 

Because, if it's strictly Major League, then 1.) Josh Gibson doesn't belong in the discussion, no matter how great he was in the Negro Leagues, and 2.) Ichiro's accomplishments in Japan are, again, irrelevant because they didn't happen while he was in the Major Leagues.

 

If it's greatest baseball players of all-time, then I'd put Josh Gibson on my list of 60 better than Ichiro. And, if Josh Gibson is on there, then Satchel Paige sure as heck better be on there, too, and he was better than Ichiro ever was.

 

And since "greatest baseball player of all-time" would be all inclusive, better start including players like Cuba's Omar Linares, and Japan's Sadaharu Oh. And both these guys make the list ahead of Ichiro, and there are more. Then we start looking at players like Oscar Charleston, Cool Papa Bell, Smokey Joe Williams, and Leon Day. Hell, better include Monte Irvin, too. 'Cause even though Negro League statistics are far from complete, the game records they do have from the Negro Leagues show Irvin was a career .954 OPS hitter.

 

So, however we do this, Ichiro doesn't crack the top 50 list, especially when we don't exclude pitchers.

 

If you want to say that Ichiro is one of the 50 best pure hitters in MLB history, you wouldn't get an argument from me, guys. There is evidence to support that. But "best player" is all inclusive. And in baseball, nothing is more important to scoring than hitting for power. A player that hits for power and average trumps all.