Milwaukee Bucks 2016 - 2017

[patrickgpe]

i understand that the new collective bargaining agreement has made contracts out of control, but Plumlee getting 4/52 to get 5 points a game, 4 boards and run some pick and rolls is insane.

 

 

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[Baldkin]

i understand that the new collective bargaining agreement has made contracts out of control, but Plumlee getting 4/52 to get 5 points a game, 4 boards and run some pick and rolls is insane.

 

Hammond has never paid way more than market value instead of waiting for a restricted free agent to sign an offer sheet before and deciding to match.

Oh wait. That's all he's done.

[FVBrewerFan]

Yea, I honestly don't know what they're doing anymore. Seems like the Kohl days to me, just keep signing mediocre guys, trade some of them every year for other mediocre guys, repeat. I really thought they were going to clear a bunch of cap space so they could acquire a star, but maybe they think Plumley and Dellavedova are stars. I don't get the road map here, hopefully the plan is better than what it appears.

[Baldkin]

Yea, I honestly don't know what they're doing anymore. Seems like the Kohl days to me, just keep signing mediocre guys, trade some of them every year for other mediocre guys, repeat. I really thought they were going to clear a bunch of cap space so they could acquire a star, but maybe they think Plumley and Dellavedova are stars. I don't get the road map here, hopefully the plan is better than what it appears.

 

Giannis and Jabari are the stars. If they aren't, it won't matter for at least 3 years anyway. When everyone has cap space, no star is going to choose Milwaukee to play in.

[patrickgpe]

i understand that the new collective bargaining agreement has made contracts out of control, but Plumlee getting 4/52 to get 5 points a game, 4 boards and run some pick and rolls is insane.

 

Hammond has never paid way more than market value instead of waiting for a restricted free agent to sign an offer sheet before and deciding to match.

Oh wait. That's all he's done.

its such a backwards way of doing it, the bucks have the advantage and you can wait for the market to bare out his worth. And honestly if you don't sign Miles Plumlee is that going to make a huge difference win wise over the next few seasons.

 

I still think this is Kidd's doing and not Hammonds though.

[rwa12]

Plumlee is the closest thing to the Center they are looking for that is available. If they lineup this team like they should, he will start. That's a ton of money for him, and I think his ceiling has certainly been reached, but it's not the most outlandish signing I've seen. I think this fits into their springy length philosophy. If GA-JP-KM is the big three, he's just another complimentary piece. They seem to be seeking out "team" guys, who are willing to fill roles, Plumlee is certainly that. While I liked the Monroe signing last year, it tanked. This signing is more in line with the team philosophy, and less in line with trying to sign a name. Trade Monroe, or let him lead the Second team with MCW. He doesn't belong with the regular rotation, and is counterproductive. Plumlee at least fills a need.

[fondybrewfan]

If Garnett is the closet comp to Maker I really hope he doesn't turn into the same turd personality wise as Garnett.

 

They can't pay Monroe and Plumlee those combined amounts. Paying that much for a backup center is way to high. Monroe has got to be on the way out.

 

The core of the team is still quite strong with Giannis, Middleton, and Parker. All they need is a competent center (The equivalent of Zaza) and some sort of consistent shooting threat from being a perennial playoff contender. Plumlee could be a Zaza type player and we will see if they have picked up enough shooting this offseason to make a difference.

[GAME05]

My immediate thought was that Plumlee is exactly the kind of center they're looking for and they can't risk letting him go and then struggle to find a replacement. Maybe he's just "meh," but we've sure seen what an opposite-playstyle player can do to the team. Signing Plumlee to a contract like that maybe isn't so much about finding a center but making sure Giannis and Jabari can continue to develop with a center who allows them to play to their strengths opposed to a center who restricts the rest of the team. Sure, we could complain that Plumlee is being overpaid or he doesn't quite have the talent to be a starter, but nobody was complaining last year that he was a hindrance to the team the way the more-talented Monroe was/is.

 

People have complained about Thon being a stretch at 10 or maybe that Plumlee is being paid more than his talents dictate, but maybe it's necessary. Hammond is reaching if you look at talent, but he's paying market prices to make sure he gets players that fit a particular mold.

[Austin Tatious]

They really couldn't get Plumlee at 4/40? This is crazy money. Key word, crazy.

[rwa12]

Honestly, I think you should be able to get a package of all 3 Plumlees for 4/24. I haven't had time to adjust to these new contracts. Role players are getting $20M. I'm glad we signed him. Seeing as C is a nominal position for the Bucks, I'd like to see them offload the Monroe contract. As someone else mentioned, too much money at a position that doesn't really matter to the team. If they keep him, he better be the offensive focal point of the second unit, and win games in the third quarter.

[tmwiese55]

Yea I hope what I said about Garnett didn't come off as me thinking he should be that good. It's what i think he wants to be based on his body and what seems to thinks his skills are. Personally I think he should focus on being a PnR rim protector who can hit a pick and pop when needed. Just focus on that and kind of being a rich man's Larry Sanders.

 

I agree the Plumlee deal is absurd for a guy who spends half last season as a DNP-CD. Yes he fits better than the other two guys but I think only 4-5 teams even have the capability to sign him right now and of those only the Nets made any sense. They couldn't have had a 3/27 offer on the table and said take this or come back to us with an offer sheet? I actually do like Plumlee but I feel like they need to be more shrewd with their space as 2-3 years down the line they might need to make some other tweaks, and it's easier with every few millions extra in cap space they can find.

[MKE81]

Jon Leuer got 4/42. Solomon Hill 4/48. Plumlee is a great fit in this scheme and is more talented than both those players. Mike Conley hasn't made one all-star game and he got 5/153. With the cap rising this year, and again next, teams HAVE to spend at least 90% of cap number

[patrickgpe]

Jon Leuer got 4/42. Solomon Hill 4/48. Plumlee is a great fit in this scheme and is more talented than both those players. Mike Conley hasn't made one all-star game and he got 5/153. With the cap rising this year, and again next, teams HAVE to spend at least 90% of cap number

 

Evan Turners contract of 4/70 is still the worst of the offseason IMO. I agree with you that if Leuer gets 4/42, than Plumlee should get 4/50 and he is a good fit for the team.

 

My only criticism was that the bucks should have waited for another team to sign him to set the market for him.

[superfly]

This is insanity. Somebody is braindead in downtown Milwaukee...what in the flying bleep is the point of having restricted FA advantages if you don't USE THEM? We're weeks into FA, let it dwindle until somebody offers him 3/30 and match it. Cap rise or not this is ridiculous.

[Baldkin]

Jon Leuer got 4/42. Solomon Hill 4/48. Plumlee is a great fit in this scheme and is more talented than both those players. Mike Conley hasn't made one all-star game and he got 5/153. With the cap rising this year, and again next, teams HAVE to spend at least 90% of cap number

 

No. They don't have to spend anything.

 

The salary floor rules are simply that the team must pay out that much in contracts. So, if they don't meet the floor, then they just have to pay the players who played for them extra money.

 

This is an idiotic contract, the same as Henson's was the moment he signed it. When you can get 90% of a player for 20% of the price, it's a dumb deal. They are now set on spending 25% of their cap space on C's (assuming they trade Monroe) who really aren't that good.

 

Once again, John Hammond negotiated against himself and lost.

[patrickgpe]

Once again, John Hammond negotiated against himself and lost.

I don't know how much clout Hammond has, i still think this was a Kidd move. Hammond has 2 more seasons here and he is gone.

[tmwiese55]

The difference between Plumlee and all those contracts you mentioned is that he was restricted and it's now 3 weeks later so all the teams have blown their wad and don't have space left, those teams had to worry about other teams competing with their contracts. Plumlee had no negotiating power and still dominated our front office in the negotiation. I just can't believe they couldn't have gotten this done for 4ish less per year on a 3 yr deal, maybe a team option for year 4.

[fondybrewfan]

Hammond has made some solid trades and draft picks recently but he seems to really struggle in free agency.

[patrickgpe]

The difference between Plumlee and all those contracts you mentioned is that he was restricted and it's now 3 weeks later so all the teams have blown their wad and don't have space left, those teams had to worry about other teams competing with their contracts. Plumlee had no negotiating power and still dominated our front office in the negotiation. I just can't believe they couldn't have gotten this done for 4ish less per year on a 3 yr deal, maybe a team option for year 4.

ON WSSP they said that teams were allegedly trying to clear contracts to make room for Plumlee, who knows how accurate that is. The market probably set him up for this type of contract, but there was no news on him visiting other teams or other teams interested in him.

[FVBrewerFan]

After watching Maker in the summer league, I don't think you have to look too far for a comp- it's Giannis. Maker is more of a perimeter player than Garnett on offense. He is a better ball handler and can shoot the 3.

 

I can see him developing as more of a true center on defense, but not on offense. He's not an athletic freak like Giannis, and I'm not saying Maker will ever be that good. I just think his game is similar- especially on offense.

[tmwiese55]

The difference between Plumlee and all those contracts you mentioned is that he was restricted and it's now 3 weeks later so all the teams have blown their wad and don't have space left, those teams had to worry about other teams competing with their contracts. Plumlee had no negotiating power and still dominated our front office in the negotiation. I just can't believe they couldn't have gotten this done for 4ish less per year on a 3 yr deal, maybe a team option for year 4.

ON WSSP they said that teams were allegedly trying to clear contracts to make room for Plumlee, who knows how accurate that is. The market probably set him up for this type of contract, but there was no news on him visiting other teams or other teams interested in him.

 

I believe that was based off a David Aldridge tweet from almost two weeks ago. That's classic agent maneuvering leaking stuff to reporters to drum up interest. It's also very very difficult for a team to pull that off for restricted FA, because the other team can just match and then you're out that trade anyway. They have to have the cap space just to sign the offer sheet, can't have it as a contingent type thing. But really, just scroll through teams and look at their C depth, very few would have a need. Then throw in who can feasibly have the financial space to actual sign him and there isn't a lot of options left. Again, I actually like Plumlee but this just seems like a horrible negotiation to me, never know when you're going to need 3-5 extra in cap space a couple years from now to add a piece when we're actually competing for a title.

[MKE81]

Jon Leuer got 4/42. Solomon Hill 4/48. Plumlee is a great fit in this scheme and is more talented than both those players. Mike Conley hasn't made one all-star game and he got 5/153. With the cap rising this year, and again next, teams HAVE to spend at least 90% of cap number

 

No. They don't have to spend anything.

 

The salary floor rules are simply that the team must pay out that much in contracts. So, if they don't meet the floor, then they just have to pay the players who played for them extra money.

 

This is an idiotic contract, the same as Henson's was the moment he signed it. When you can get 90% of a player for 20% of the price, it's a dumb deal. They are now set on spending 25% of their cap space on C's (assuming they trade Monroe) who really aren't that good.

 

Once again, John Hammond negotiated against himself and lost.

 

Actually, yes they do. The cap is 94M and teams must spend 90% of that. If they fail to do so in contracts they write a check for the difference, which is then divided among the players on the roster at season's end (which you stated). But they're still spending at least 90% of that cap number hence they MUST pay that dollar amount. You can believe Plumlee and Henson aren't worth 4/52 and 4/44 but the market absolutely says otherwise. Henson is actually underpaid based on the market. Why else do you think player's are getting absurd contracts for their actual skill set? It's the market due to the new cap. Henson, if given 30mpg, will post a double-double plus blocks/altering shots. Plumlee has put up 8/8 in 25mpg in the past and he's a better player now than at that time. Most importantly, who are better, and cheaper, options than Henson and Plumlee that fit the Bucks system? I'll wait....

 

The cap number is rising again next year to low-100M so if Plumlee is given more time due to the absence of Monroe and continues to perform well he would have received a larger contract next year than he just signed hence saving us money. Plumlee, like Henson, needs more and consistent PT as they're effective when on the floor. They both fit the mold for what this team targets in general - length, athleticism - and in regard to their position - rebounding, shot blocking/altering and better defense than Monroe, which absolutely will be traded to have the Henson/Plumlee combo at C. Is Plumlee worth 4/52M in general? Absolutely not. But it's the market. Henson, if on the market now, would get a heck of a lot more than the 4/44 he's under. Just like Middleton would get a lot more than he signed for (potentially close to a max contract). It's why they're working on locking up Giannis for 5yrs longer right now otherwise when he's a FA getting that max contract will be more expensive. It's not Hammond it's the market. If you don't think these guys have crunched the numbers for what they currently have locked up, what they're looking at locking up for the future (Giannis then Parker) then there's nothing else to say as you're free to believe what you want but this is the reality of it. The focal point players will be here long-term and built around.

[tmwiese55]

To repeat again, Plumlee wasn't an unrestricted FA in an open market. He was an RFA after most teams have filled their cap space already and the ones who haven't already have plenty of Cs. Overall I have no beef with the salary increases, it's capitalism at it's finest. Just seems like a horrible negotiation by the team based on the info we the public know.

[Baldkin]

Jon Leuer got 4/42. Solomon Hill 4/48. Plumlee is a great fit in this scheme and is more talented than both those players. Mike Conley hasn't made one all-star game and he got 5/153. With the cap rising this year, and again next, teams HAVE to spend at least 90% of cap number

 

No. They don't have to spend anything.

 

The salary floor rules are simply that the team must pay out that much in contracts. So, if they don't meet the floor, then they just have to pay the players who played for them extra money.

 

This is an idiotic contract, the same as Henson's was the moment he signed it. When you can get 90% of a player for 20% of the price, it's a dumb deal. They are now set on spending 25% of their cap space on C's (assuming they trade Monroe) who really aren't that good.

 

Once again, John Hammond negotiated against himself and lost.

 

Actually, yes they do. The cap is 94M and teams must spend 90% of that. If they fail to do so in contracts they write a check for the difference, which is then divided among the players on the roster at season's end (which you stated). But they're still spending at least 90% of that cap number hence they MUST pay that dollar amount. You can believe Plumlee and Henson aren't worth 4/52 and 4/44 but the market absolutely says otherwise. Henson is actually underpaid based on the market. Why else do you think player's are getting absurd contracts for their actual skill set? It's the market due to the new cap. Henson, if given 30mpg, will post a double-double plus blocks/altering shots. Plumlee has put up 8/8 in 25mpg in the past and he's a better player now than at that time. Most importantly, who are better, and cheaper, options than Henson and Plumlee that fit the Bucks system? I'll wait....

 

The cap number is rising again next year to low-100M so if Plumlee is given more time due to the absence of Monroe and continues to perform well he would have received a larger contract next year than he just signed hence saving us money. Plumlee, like Henson, needs more and consistent PT as they're effective when on the floor. They both fit the mold for what this team targets in general - length, athleticism - and in regard to their position - rebounding, shot blocking/altering and better defense than Monroe, which absolutely will be traded to have the Henson/Plumlee combo at C. Is Plumlee worth 4/52M in general? Absolutely not. But it's the market. Henson, if on the market now, would get a heck of a lot more than the 4/44 he's under. Just like Middleton would get a lot more than he signed for (potentially close to a max contract). It's why they're working on locking up Giannis for 5yrs longer right now otherwise when he's a FA getting that max contract will be more expensive. It's not Hammond it's the market. If you don't think these guys have crunched the numbers for what they currently have locked up, what they're looking at locking up for the future (Giannis then Parker) then there's nothing else to say as you're free to believe what you want but this is the reality of it. The focal point players will be here long-term and built around.

 

Let's just show you this, and maybe then you can comprehend why this was an idiotic signing:

Bucks Salary totals, 2018/2019, when both Giannis and Jabari on on max deals:

Giannis: 29M

Jabari: 29M

Middleton 13M

Henson 11M

Plumlee 13M

------------------

95M

 

The cap, right now, is projected to be at 104M. Vaughn's cap hold will be ~3M as will Maker's.

 

They are now paying 24M for mediocre at best C's, 22% of their cap space and this is assuming they can move Monroe.

 

He wouldn't have received a larger contract next year, teams won't all have max cap space to spend next year. The cap is jumping 10% and not 28%. Hence, saving during an off season when spending was ridiculous was a smart thing to do -- deals next year will be cheaper and more in line with normal salary escalation.

[Austin Tatious]

With Hammond, he's had some flops like Joe Alexander. Rashard Vaughn is apparently on JKidd as Hambone liked Portis.

 

But basketball is so unique compared to football and basketball because there are small rosters and only 5 on the court at a time. There are so few difference makers, and then it's about complementary pieces which every team has. So, some whiffs may happen.

 

You do have to give him credit for Giannis in particular. Maybe a monkey could have picked Jabari, but theoretically, he could have messed it up.

 

I may be a minority voice on this, but I liked the Maker pick. Sabonis was the other kid I liked, but Maker brings some needed elements, particulary shot blocking, rebounding, rim protection, shooting, and high upside. It may have been universally panned, but I liked it.

 

The move that probably made me go most apoplectic was trading out of the pick where we could have had Klay Thompson. I was on top of that the whole way. Klay was my guy. Collosal fail there. But, when it came to the Stephen Jackson, Corey Magette, John Salmons idiocy, that may have been Kohl. See Danny Gadzuric.

 

On trades, he did get Middleton. It was not that long ago that we had Brandon Jennings and Monta Ellis and I literally thought we had no hope. But, Hambone was here when we got out of that purgatory rapidly, much to my amazement and from the depths of despair.

 

I agree with the point, that his drafting has been fine. There is some impact talent coalescing. But, his negotations and dealings with veterans is where he struggles mentally.