Villar Cherry-Picking 3rd

[jerichoholicninja]

Maybe I'm misremembering but I don't remember base stupidity being an issue 4 or 5 years ago. Am I misremembering or did Ron Roenicke ruin this organization's fundamentals?

[rickh150]

Maybe I'm misremembering but I don't remember base stupidity being an issue 4 or 5 years ago. Am I misremembering or did Ron Roenicke ruin this organization's fundamentals?

 

RR preached over aggressiveness and in my opinion, to a fault.

[rickh150]

With two more UNFORCED outs on the bases Tuesday (pickoff at 1st, caught over running 3rd), Villar has over a game's worth of outs by himself on the bases. The positive is that he didn't get chucked at 3rd with 2 outs and that he continues to get hits.... Just frustrating.

 

Moreover, he continues to steal or attempt to steal 3rd with no outs and two outs..... Again, I blame CC for it all. He himself has refused to put up stop signs for the train wreck of a base runner.

[pacopete4]

I hope he continues to be aggressive. We take that away and we take a big weapon of ours away. I just hope they continue to show him the tapes and talk through these things with him.

[tmwiese55]

And last night he gets picked off at first. Then later when he gets on again he just keeps daring it and nearly gets picked off 4 times, it ended up working out but he could've been caught on any of those throws. I like him overall and want him around a while but at some point this has to be toned down a bit. Way too many pickoffs at first and way too many steals of 3rd with 2 outs. Clean that up and you have a decent balance.

[jerichoholicninja]

I hope he continues to be aggressive. We take that away and we take a big weapon of ours away. I just hope they continue to show him the tapes and talk through these things with him.

 

He's not being aggressive, he's being reckless and stupid.

[pogokat]

He strikes me like the kind of guy that cares greatly about leading the league in sb's and gets reckless when he feels challenged...that's why he takes such idiotic leads off of 1b.

[rickh150]

And last night he gets picked off at first. Then later when he gets on again he just keeps daring it and nearly gets picked off 4 times, it ended up working out but he could've been caught on any of those throws. I like him overall and want him around a while but at some point this has to be toned down a bit. Way too many pickoffs at first and way too many steals of 3rd with 2 outs. Clean that up and you have a decent balance.

 

If I'm managing, the team, Villar especially. gets a stop sign (hand to belt signal/ indicator) in spots when I simply don't want him stealing. No need for a big lead off. We have gotten double digit outs on these types of plays.... All on CC

 

Not only does this happen, when Villar is on base in these situations ( mind you he gets his freedom and pitch count to run most of the time) the first base coach talks to him personally about the stop sign being on (when at second, 1st base coach brings him different batting gloves or something). When he graduates this step, he would then have to indicate to the 1st base coach that the stop sign signal is on ( from 3rd base coach). When he does this step well, only then has he proved to be treated like every other sane Ballplayer. The stop sign would still be in use for the entire team.

 

We are looking for solutions to this never ending saga. I offer a solution that would work. The team is getting hurt from these easily fixable, individual mistakes, and I tire of calling them out...... Oh, how I tire........

 

Anyhow, in regard to the two unforced errors last night, I don't have huge issues with him getting picked off first in that situations. Base stealers get picked off for being aggressive.... that happens. I have issues with him almost getting picked off later..... Again. Get a clue. I have issues with a coaching staff not setting proper boundaries for this man so he doesn't hurt the team. I have issues with him stealing at his will and not valuing an out enough. I have issues with him overrunning 3rd last night when he himself plays SS and knows that deep SS throw to 3B is a possible option for an out.

 

I am at breaking point and the cringe of Villar on the bases could be turning to a twitch. Doubting CC's ability to communicate and teach this man anything...... Need to see change or trade this guy this offseason while the iron is hot.

[danzig6767]

 

We are looking for solutions to this never ending saga. I offer a solution that would work. The team is getting hurt from these easily fixable, individual mistakes, and I tire of calling them out...... Oh, how I tire........

 

Anyhow, in regard to the two unforced errors last night, I don't have huge issues with him getting picked off first in that situations. Base stealers get picked off for being aggressive.... that happens. I have issues with him almost getting picked off later..... Again. Get a clue. I have issues with a coaching staff not setting proper boundaries for this man so he doesn't hurt the team. I have issues with him stealing at his will and not valuing an out enough. I have issues with him overrunning 3rd last night when he himself plays SS and knows that deep SS throw to 3B is a possible option for an out.

 

I am at breaking point and the cringe of Villar on the bases could be turning to a twitch. Doubting CC's ability to communicate and teach this man anything. Need to see change or trade this guy this offseason while the iron is hot.

 

Villar finds all kinds of ways to make outs on the bases, just like Gomez did. Both guys did the same thing on different teams under different managers. Likely did the same in the minors under a myriad of different managers.

 

For some reason there are people who want to ignore that baserunning and fully grasping time and place when to be more aggressive vs being more cautious is a skill some players simply possess more than others. Baseball IQ in varying aspects of the game differs from player to player.

 

We see hitters all of the time who simply refuse to be more patient at the plate, even after multiple hitting coaches and managers tell them it's needed for that hitter to maximize his potential. They in most cases don't do this because they hate the premise of taking walks. Instead, their brain is just hard-wired to swing a lot, even at the same pitches which continually lead to making lots of outs.

 

As for trading Villar, no way in hell would i trade him unless an offer simply was to good to pass on. Leadoff hitters who can get on base like he does aren't easy to find. The number of dumb outs which he's made on the bases doesn't come close to mitigating how often he actually gets on base compared to most players and anyone else the team would likely find to replace him as the leadoff hitter.

 

Given Villar is instinctively a low IQ overall baserunner, i wouldn't expect Counsell to do any miracles. Just mainly cut down the attempted steals at thirdbase, especially when a conversion won't help much anyways and i'll be ok going forward with the inevitable random brainfarts on the bases by Villar so long as he can keep getting on base at a high clip. Someone with a significantly lower OBP, but who is smarter on the bases will end up making a lot more outs.

 

People go nuts over brainfarts on the bases by Villar, but rarely say anything when numerous hitters strikeout or weakly ground out on the same pitch off the plate which Villar takes for a walk to actually get on base.

[rickh150]

 

We are looking for solutions to this never ending saga. I offer a solution that would work. The team is getting hurt from these easily fixable, individual mistakes, and I tire of calling them out...... Oh, how I tire........

 

Anyhow, in regard to the two unforced errors last night, I don't have huge issues with him getting picked off first in that situations. Base stealers get picked off for being aggressive.... that happens. I have issues with him almost getting picked off later..... Again. Get a clue. I have issues with a coaching staff not setting proper boundaries for this man so he doesn't hurt the team. I have issues with him stealing at his will and not valuing an out enough. I have issues with him overrunning 3rd last night when he himself plays SS and knows that deep SS throw to 3B is a possible option for an out.

 

I am at breaking point and the cringe of Villar on the bases could be turning to a twitch. Doubting CC's ability to communicate and teach this man anything. Need to see change or trade this guy this offseason while the iron is hot.

 

Villar finds all kinds of ways to make outs on the bases, just like Gomez did. Both guys did the same thing on different teams under different managers. Likely did the same in the minors under a myriad of different managers.

 

For some reason there are people who want to ignore that baserunning and fully grasping time and place when to be more aggressive vs being more cautious is a skill some players simply possess more than others. Baseball IQ in varying aspects of the game differs from player to player.

 

We see hitters all of the time who simply refuse to be more patient at the plate, even after multiple hitting coaches and managers tell them it's needed for that hitter to maximize his potential. They in most cases don't do this because they hate the premise of taking walks. Instead, their brain is just hard-wired to swing a lot, even at the same pitches which continually lead to making lots of outs.

 

As for trading Villar, no way in hell would i trade him unless an offer simply was to good to pass on. Leadoff hitters who can get on base like he does aren't easy to find. The number of dumb outs which he's made on the bases doesn't come close to mitigating how often he actually gets on base compared to most players and anyone else the team would likely find to replace him as the leadoff hitter.

 

Given Villar is instinctively a low IQ overall baserunner, i wouldn't expect Counsell to do any miracles. Just mainly cut down the attempted steals at thirdbase, especially when a conversion won't help much anyways and i'll be ok going forward with the inevitable random brainfarts on the bases by Villar so long as he can keep getting on base at a high clip. Someone with a significantly lower OBP, but who is smarter on the bases will end up making a lot more outs.

 

People go nuts over brainfarts on the bases by Villar, but rarely say anything when numerous hitters strikeout or weakly ground out on the same pitch off the plate which Villar takes for a walk to actually get on base.

 

You are totally missing the point....

 

CC's decision to put up a stop sign in certain situations takes away possible unforced errors immediately. They are gone!

 

With hitting, fielding, pitching, the manager doesn't have that luxury (well, taking a 3-0 pitch in situations, I guess). One decision by CC cannot immediately change results. A considerable amount of practice, work with coaches, and watching tape could help make modest improvements.

 

Other players have areas of weakness, sure, just like Villar's running for outs. Point taken, and it's a good one. Yet, Villar's weakness, unlike any other player, gets incredibly better with the manager's help of taking the decision out of the player's hands.

[MrTPlush]

I think teams are starting to learn that Villar takes big leads and isn't the best at getting back. I still think another problem is the Brewers are making Villar steal too much. It feels like he is always attempting to steal so he is always leaning towards second making him easier to pick off.

[rickh150]

I think teams are starting to learn that Villar takes big leads and isn't the best at getting back. I still think another problem is the Brewers are making Villar steal too much. It feels like he is always attempting to steal so he is always leaning towards second making him easier to pick off.

 

The problem is that the Brewers are "making" him do nothing. If he feels like stealing, he steals. The stop sign has not been used on him, according to CC, and it'd be interesting if the steal sign has been used for him too.

[jerichoholicninja]

At what point does Braun go up to him and go, "Dude, stop trying to steal 3B when I'm at the plate. It's distracting and you're getting thrown out too much, and it's hurting to team."

 

I say that in jest but if the coaches aren't getting to him shouldn't it be the job of a veteran to say something as well?

[rickh150]

At what point does Braun go up to him and go, "Dude, stop trying to steal 3B when I'm at the plate. It's distracting and you're getting thrown out too much, and it's hurting to team."

 

I say that in jest but if the coaches aren't getting to him shouldn't it be the job of a veteran to say something as well?

 

Agreed. If I'm on the team, period, I would feel it necessary to say something. Braun should, definitely.

[MrTPlush]

Braun is too nice. We need someone to punch him in the face...like Bryce Harper.

[jerichoholicninja]

Braun is too nice. We need someone to punch him in the face...like Bryce Harper.

 

Papelbon choked Harper. Fielder is the guy you're looking for.

[MrTPlush]

Braun is too nice. We need someone to punch him in the face...like Bryce Harper.

 

Papelbon choked Harper. Fielder is the guy you're looking for.

 

Maybe we should get Ken Macha back. Won't have to worry about him stealing bases then.

[rickh150]

Didn't Macha bench Braun twice and Cain for not hustling out batted balls?

[danzig6767]

My favorite Macha moment was Manny Parra was pitching in a game where the Brewers were up around 6-7 runs late in the game and he walked back to back batters, along with falling behind the next hitter.

 

So Macha comes out to the mound instead of the pitching coach and as usual, the infielders also start walking towards the mound. Macha waves off all of the infielders, points at the scoreboard, and then proceeds to light up Parra for not throwing strikes.

[nate82]

Didn't Macha bench Braun twice and Cain for not hustling out batted balls?

 

And for whatever reason he hated Mat Gamel. Gamel has a good game next day you are benched because of reasons by Ken Macha.

 

Macha was the worst manager the Brewers have ever had and it is not even close. I would take Yost or Garner over Macha any day.

[adambr2]

Didn't Macha bench Braun twice and Cain for not hustling out batted balls?

 

And for whatever reason he hated Mat Gamel. Gamel has a good game next day you are benched because of reasons by Ken Macha.

 

Macha was the worst manager the Brewers have ever had and it is not even close. I would take Yost or Garner over Macha any day.

 

You must not remember Jerry Royster, then. Macha wasn't anything special, but he wasn't terrible. I don't see too many other managers winning more than 80 games when your rotation is so bad that Jeff Suppan is your opening day starter.

[1992casey]

Rene Lachemann and Alex Grammas should probably be part of the worst manager conversation, although in each case, you could argue the circumstances rather than the man. Grammas didn't have good teams. Lachemann was an inappropriate fit for a team of veterans who were set in their ways. Davey Lopes wasn't all that good either.

[nate82]

 

You must not remember Jerry Royster, then. Macha wasn't anything special, but he wasn't terrible. I don't see too many other managers winning more than 80 games when your rotation is so bad that Jeff Suppan is your opening day starter.

 

Oh I do but he had a bad team that basically was worse than what Macha had 10 times worse. The starting rotation was basically just Sheets in 2002 for Royster. The Brewers only had Sexson that year as Jenkins was injured for the majority of the year. Still even with Jenkins in the lineup that was still a bad team.

 

Macha had a really good offense in 2009 and in 2010. Macha was just a horrible manager on an average team while Royster was a bad manager on a bad team.

[adambr2]

Difference of opinion , then. I thought however games he won in 09 and 10 (80 or so wins?) was about our talent level at the time. Having a great lineup doesn't do much if your rotation is terrible.

 

I think he won something like over 100 games with the A's one year so I don't think he just suddenly got terrible. I just think he was a lousy fit for who we had at the time. His communication skills were poor and it just didn't seem like he connected with the young team we were at the time. We might have been a little reactionary looking for the polar opposite of Yost at the time. I still wish we had giving Sveum a shot at the full time gig.

[RWeeksFan23]

In terms of in-game managing and such, I think Roenicke was even worse than Macha.