Villar Cherry-Picking 3rd

[jerichoholicninja]

When you consider how much of this coaching staff was around when Gomez was making the same mistakes, it makes you wonder how much the players really listen to them.

[rickh150]

I must have missed the report where Villar is stealing 3rd base on his own to pad stats, have glory, and make money. Do we have a link to this issue.

 

The stats speak for themselves...... Simply not smart team ball; if not smart team ball, then why does he do it? Logical next step to at least question.... I must have missed the report where he is stealing 3rd ( with 2 outs) to not pad stats, etc.

[logan82]

No one ever said it was good fundamental baseball. I even said he needs to clean that up over time. The thing is, this year, it doesn't matter. At all. Do you think maybe it's possible that right now, while it doesn't matter, Counsell wants to let one of his brightest young players make his own mistakes and learn from them himself over time and grow as a player right now and gradually adapt and learn his own limitations? Rather than getting up in his face and benching him and micromanaging his baserunning?

It does matter if it hurts his value in a trade.

[rickh150]

While I do think that Villar needs to clean up his baserunning over time, I can't believe we've dedicated 4 pages just to talk about his attempts to steal 3rd.

 

Of all the reasons we aren't a good team this year, Villar's risks are so, so far down on the list.

 

A different manager could fix this problem tomorrow, unlike our other issues (better starting pitching, better averages/OPS at the bottom of order, hitting with men on base, strike outs, etc.)

 

I really hope you're not suggesting starting over with managers just to get Villar to stop stealing 3rd with 2 outs. The thing is, our other issues, are our real issues. Villar stealing 3rd with 2 outs, (I think he's been caught twice this entire year stealing 3rd with 2 out), has probably not cost us a run over the course of this season, much less a win.

 

No one ever said it was good fundamental baseball. I even said he needs to clean that up over time. The thing is, this year, it doesn't matter. At all. Do you think maybe it's possible that right now, while it doesn't matter, Counsell wants to let one of his brightest young players make his own mistakes and learn from them himself over time and grow as a player right now and gradually adapt and learn his own limitations? Rather than getting up in his face and benching him and micromanaging his baserunning?

 

 

Yesterday, it cost us a run and possible win. Gennett hit a homer to lead off the sixth. Villar got chucked at third for the third out in the 5th. We lost by one.

 

Second, are you saying that Counsell shouldn't MANAGE this year because this year doesn't matter? When we "get good", then we should try to play good, fundamental baseball? If you have ever coached, you know it doesn't work this way. We get better because we play better fundamentally (not we play it our way and when we get good then we'll clean up the mistakes).

 

CC could get his lesson across and manage to win the game by putting up the stop sign when Villar is on 2nd with 2 outs. Simple fix. Simple baseball. No micromanaging. Much better than having kindergarten mistakes cost us outs, wins, and credibility.

[rickh150]

Agreed. Definitely not an issue to lose your mind over in the first year of a full year's teardown. If he continues to do it when the team is expecting and playing for a postseason birth, different story. Right now work on the stuff that you're not good at and go from there. Limit and eliminate it, yes, but no reason for fans to call for his spot.

 

And yes, I am "protecting" him in the sense that it's a giant pet peeve of mine when players are exceptional across the board in their skills but have one thing they need to work on or is completely blown out of proportion and people freak out about it. The Braun trade rumors for example, each article lists the "PED drama" that he'd bring, but Aroldis Chapman's domestic abuse seldom comes up, Ortiz's Hall of Fame career and no mention of PED's, Bartolo Colon as America's hero at 42 but no mention of his past, etc. This is no different. I said it yesterday, Villar is batting .300 at leadoff, walks, hits for some pop, plays pretty darn good defense when a tough play is in front of him, reliable, not injury prone, etc. Milwaukee fans don't get these players as often as other franchises. Enjoy him.

 

Who is calling for his spot? Putting up a stop sign in certain situations or even Sitting him a day isn't calling for his spot.

Also, if you are "good enough", shouldn't you still be managed? Or are you saying that you can you be too good to be managed/changed into a better player? I can't stand the good outweighs bad argument. Giant Pet Peeve.... Just keep getting better.

Limit and eliminate kindergarten mistakes is what we are after here, right? This shouldn't be an issue, right? I totally agree.

[rickh150]

Exactly. Look I understand people get crazy upset about fundamental stuff, but this is a year for learning and development. The guy is top 10 in the NL in SBs, walks, and hits, and gets on base almost 40 percent of the time. And he just turned 25. Maybe we can cut him a little more slack.

 

 

Exactly why this should be an issue this year- learning and development. We want our guys to get better in the second half so we will have a better 2017.

 

I agree slack should be given, but Counsell has given him TONS of slack....... And guess what? Villar hasn't changed. Not a bit. As Dr. Phil would say, " Hey, Craig, how is that working for ya?"

 

Just put up the blinking light stop sign at 3rd base with two outs for Villar. He hasn't learned that one yet and needs to so we can be better next year.

[NievesNoNO]

I don't really know how anybody can be defending this. This isn't learning or development. This is something that is common knowledge for anyone who has played more than 2 innings of organized baseball above T-ball.

 

If you'd like to call it a maturity issue then I guess but to me it's a blatant disregard for your team and trying to increase personal stats.

 

And so, I agree this year doesn't matter which makes it perfect timing to call him out and put an end to it.

[Devinep]

Exactly. Look I understand people get crazy upset about fundamental stuff, but this is a year for learning and development. The guy is top 10 in the NL in SBs, walks, and hits, and gets on base almost 40 percent of the time. And he just turned 25. Maybe we can cut him a little more slack.

 

"Villar makes too many dumb out in the bases."

 

"Yeah but he's top ten in the NL in walks" - as if it has anything to do with the conversation about base running

[MenchHead]

Last out at third with an unnessesary attempt at stealing third is frustrating beyond belief. Watching the, "great base runner," Cory Hart, get picked off when he wasn't fast enough to steal bases anymore made me want to swallow my own head. If I were manager, I wouldn't want anyone stealing third with two outs with either Villar, Braun, or Lucroy at the plate. With the K rate of this team combined with others' lack of offense, I'd rather see someone try to make something happen than a backwards K with a man in scoring position.

 

That being said, we are halfway through ONE season. There's a lot of new blood and CC and staff are still learning about them. From what I gather, CC has told Villar to use his best judgment. To me, that's a challenge to make him more cerebral of a player and to think about the whole game more. He's still learning and growing. It's impossible to do that without making mistakes.

 

Maybe he doesn't ever, "get it." If they decide that's the case, then you can go ahead and put up the stop sign. I just don't think you give people the best chance for growth when you handcuff them to what you think they're capable of.

[logan82]

I can live with making outs at 3b if you are trying to stretch a double into a triple. A CS at 3b is pretty unacceptable. It is premeditated. You should only steal 3b if the 3b is being completely oblivious to the base.

[1992casey]

Splitting the two schools of thought, a stop sign might function as a teaching tool. After using it a while, lift it and see if it's helped Jonathan's decision-making become better. If he still need guidance at that point, put the stop sign back on.

[adambr2]

No one ever said it was good fundamental baseball. I even said he needs to clean that up over time. The thing is, this year, it doesn't matter. At all. Do you think maybe it's possible that right now, while it doesn't matter, Counsell wants to let one of his brightest young players make his own mistakes and learn from them himself over time and grow as a player right now and gradually adapt and learn his own limitations? Rather than getting up in his face and benching him and micromanaging his baserunning?

It does matter if it hurts his value in a trade.

 

I really doubt we are looking to trade Villar, and if we are, I really doubt that the extremely minimal number of times he had been caught stealing 3rd with 2 outs this year is going to have much effect on his value at all.

[stoutdude04]

I doubt anyone is trying too hard to solve the mystery of why the Brewers aren't a good team this year

 

I assume it's because they have scored less runs than the other team more often.

 

Honestly though, they do not have a great team. They have a strong bullpen, 3 solid guys in the rotation, and 4 or 5 strong to really good position players. It's not surprising to see them play poorly.

 

To me, Villar's boneheaded plays aren't whats keeping us from being a good team.

 

 

Why are people equating Villar's bad base-running to how good our team is? Are we trying to cover this up and pretend this isn't stupid baseball?

 

If we were in 1st place, this is an issue. If we're in last place, this is an issue. If Joe Schmo in AA Biloxi is doing the same, it is an issue. This thread is long because the problem is still a problem, and the problem (Villar stealing 3rd with two outs for his personal glory/stats/money) is a very fixable one (manager says stop).

 

 

Not sure if you're responding to me directly, but my response was to the post above.

[stoutdude04]

Tom H. is coming around......

 

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/387113131.html

 

This basically shows that the staff is aware of it and are trying to educate him to become smarter. They do however mention that they aren't putting stop signs up, but are trying to educate him a different way. Isn't that what you/others are hoping for? It sounds like the staff just doesn't think he's mature (they use the word smartly) enough. To me this could be chalked up to growing pains.

[danzig6767]

I don't really know how anybody can be defending this. This isn't learning or development. This is something that is common knowledge for anyone who has played more than 2 innings of organized baseball above T-ball.

 

If you'd like to call it a maturity issue then I guess but to me it's a blatant disregard for your team and trying to increase personal stats.

 

And so, I agree this year doesn't matter which makes it perfect timing to call him out and put an end to it.

I don't buy that Villar's issues on the bases is out of him trying to increase personal stats, just like i don't think Carlos Gomez and his baserunning mistakes came out of him to increase personal stats. Both guys strike me as hard working types who simply lacked good baseball IQ when it came to really understanding time and place for being aggressive.

 

That is a skill just like other aspects of the game are. There are plenty of baseball players who are smart baserunners, even if they aren't really fast or aren't base stealing types. Robin Yount for example was an excellent baserunner, even though he didn't steal lots of bases. I don't think he was taught those instincts as much as he had them.

 

Managers can only do so much with players who struggle with certain aspects of the game. Look at hitters who simply refuse to be patient and take walks at a decent rate. A manager can tell a hitter over and over that he really needs to be more patient if he wants to be a better all around hitter, but many just won't be able to do it because patience is a skill. Same with baserunning.

 

After we traded for Villar,i read about him on an Astros forum. One common response was that he had talent, but would make dumb baserunning mistakes. I'd bet that Villar struggled with making boneheaded mistakes in the minors also.

[rickh150]

I don't really know how anybody can be defending this. This isn't learning or development. This is something that is common knowledge for anyone who has played more than 2 innings of organized baseball above T-ball.

 

If you'd like to call it a maturity issue then I guess but to me it's a blatant disregard for your team and trying to increase personal stats.

 

And so, I agree this year doesn't matter which makes it perfect timing to call him out and put an end to it.

I don't buy that Villar's issues on the bases is out of him trying to increase personal stats, just like i don't think Carlos Gomez and his baserunning mistakes came out of him to increase personal stats. Both guys strike me as hard working types who simply lacked good baseball IQ when it came to really understanding time and place for being aggressive.

 

That is a skill just like other aspects of the game are. There are plenty of baseball players who are smart baserunners, even if they aren't really fast or aren't base stealing types. Robin Yount for example was an excellent baserunner, even though he didn't steal lots of bases. I don't think he was taught those instincts as much as he had them.

 

Managers can only do so much with players who struggle with certain aspects of the game. Look at hitters who simply refuse to be patient and take walks at a decent rate. A manager can tell a hitter over and over that he really needs to be more patient if he wants to be a better all around hitter, but many just won't be able to do it because patience is a skill. Same with baserunning.

 

After we traded for Villar, I read about him on an Astros forum. One common response was that he had talent, but would make dumb baserunning mistakes. I'd bet that Villar struggled with making boneheaded mistakes in the minors also.

 

 

Following a coach's sign at third to NOT steal a base is easy.

Sending out a No Steal sign to the 3rd base coach is easy.

Both lead to a runner becoming a smarter base runner.

Correctable mistakes.... Instantly.

[danzig6767]

Villar has baserunning issues beyond choosing to try stealing 3rd base at the wrong times.

 

In the grand scheme of things for him though, it's a minor problem compared to the overall good things he does, just like Gomez when he was a Brewer. Nothing worth getting all bent out of shape over.

[jerichoholicninja]

Villar has baserunning issues beyond choosing to try stealing 3rd base at the wrong times.

 

In the grand scheme of things for him though, it's a minor problem compared to the overall good things he does, just like Gomez when he was a Brewer. Nothing worth getting all bent out of shape over.

 

Costing your team outs on the bases seems like something worth getting bent out of shape over.

[logan82]

Villar has baserunning issues beyond choosing to try stealing 3rd base at the wrong times.

 

In the grand scheme of things for him though, it's a minor problem compared to the overall good things he does, just like Gomez when he was a Brewer. Nothing worth getting all bent out of shape over.

 

Costing your team outs on the bases seems like something worth getting bent out of shape over.

I don't have a huge problem with making outs on the bases while being aggressive. Getting caught stealing bases is not good though, especially at 3B.

[danzig6767]

Villar has baserunning issues beyond choosing to try stealing 3rd base at the wrong times.

 

In the grand scheme of things for him though, it's a minor problem compared to the overall good things he does, just like Gomez when he was a Brewer. Nothing worth getting all bent out of shape over.

 

Costing your team outs on the bases seems like something worth getting bent out of shape over.

You and others are getting all worked up over Villar costing the team a handful of outs on the bases when at the same time he's 2nd in batting average, leads the team in walks and OBP. The vast majority of other players on the roster are costing the team a hell of a lot more outs as they walk back to the dugout without even getting on base as evidenced by the team .323 OBP.

 

That's a much bigger problem than Villar brainfarting here and there. If the rest of the team was getting on base at a .386 clip like he is, but also made some similar random dumb decisions on the bases, the team would be scoring more runs, not less. So while i hope he eventually learns to be a smarter baserunner, no i'm not stressing out over his brainfarts because it's very very low on the list of problems with the team currently.

[Devinep]

Villar has baserunning issues beyond choosing to try stealing 3rd base at the wrong times.

 

In the grand scheme of things for him though, it's a minor problem compared to the overall good things he does, just like Gomez when he was a Brewer. Nothing worth getting all bent out of shape over.

 

Costing your team outs on the bases seems like something worth getting bent out of shape over.

You and others are getting all worked up over Villar costing the team a handful of outs on the bases when at the same time he's 2nd in batting average, leads the team in walks and OBP. The vast majority of other players on the roster are costing the team a hell of a lot more outs as they walk back to the dugout without even getting on base as evidenced by the team .323 OBP.

 

That's a much bigger problem than Villar brainfarting here and there. If the rest of the team was getting on base at a .386 clip like he is, but also made some similar random dumb decisions on the bases, the team would be scoring more runs, not less. So while i hope he eventually learns to be a smarter baserunner, no i'm not stressing out over his brainfarts because it's very very low on the list of problems with the team currently.

 

Again, I don't think people are saying that Villars a bad player or that he should be traded, so why keep bringing up irrelevant things to base running like OBP?

 

The reason people don't like al the outs he makes is that they should be easily avoidable, it's not like asking David Ortiz to be faster. Villar just needs to be a little smarter. Easy fix = "why the crapnis he still making such dumb decisions?"

[Devinep]

Villar has baserunning issues beyond choosing to try stealing 3rd base at the wrong times.

 

In the grand scheme of things for him though, it's a minor problem compared to the overall good things he does, just like Gomez when he was a Brewer. Nothing worth getting all bent out of shape over.

 

Costing your team outs on the bases seems like something worth getting bent out of shape over.

You and others are getting all worked up over Villar costing the team a handful of outs on the bases when at the same time he's 2nd in batting average, leads the team in walks and OBP. The vast majority of other players on the roster are costing the team a hell of a lot more outs as they walk back to the dugout without even getting on base as evidenced by the team .323 OBP.

 

That's a much bigger problem than Villar brainfarting here and there. If the rest of the team was getting on base at a .386 clip like he is, but also made some similar random dumb decisions on the bases, the team would be scoring more runs, not less. So while i hope he eventually learns to be a smarter baserunner, no i'm not stressing out over his brainfarts because it's very very low on the list of problems with the team currently.

 

Again, I don't think people are saying that Villars a bad player or that he should be traded, so why keep bringing up irrelevant things to base running like OBP?

 

The reason people don't like al the outs he makes is that they should be easily avoidable, it's not like asking David Ortiz to be faster. Villar just needs to be a little smarter. Easy fix = "why the crapnis he still making such dumb decisions?"

[stoutdude04]

Again, I don't think people are saying that Villars a bad player or that he should be traded, so why keep bringing up irrelevant things to base running like OBP?

 

The reason people don't like al the outs he makes is that they should be easily avoidable, it's not like asking David Ortiz to be faster. Villar just needs to be a little smarter. Easy fix = "why the crapnis he still making such dumb decisions?"

 

I imagine he is bringing it up because the good things he does out weighs the bad. His base running appears to be a skill he lacks. Obviously it needs to improve. The staff is working on that without giving stop signs.

[adambr2]

The point about bringing up OBP, etc. in a conversation about baserunning, as stoutdude basically said, is that Villar is good. He adds a lot more runs than he takes away. We finally add another really good player, and all we're even talking about is the one part of his game that needs improvement at 25.

 

So we're deep in a discussion about something very miniscule in the scheme of 'how many runs has this costed?' Obviously Villar knows that making the 3rd out at 3rd isn't good. Maybe the times he tried he thought he had it as a given after paying attention to the pitcher. Or maybe he thinks he can nab it at the 90% or so rate that would make it worthwhile. I really don't know. All I do know is that our manager is aware of his reasons, and is okay with it enough not to be throwing up the stop sign. Yes, I know it sounds like a simple fix, and yes, I do still believe you can hinder the learning and development of a guy like Villar by giving him the stop sign.

[logan82]

I don't care if it's the first second or third out at 3B. I can understand doing it if he gets caught once in a while trying to extend a double, just don't get caught stealing at 3B. It's premeditated and easily avoidable.